Geneforge mutagen tips + review

[Lorn]

Played and finished Geneforge 1 mutagen. Thanks for the game.  Before writing the review, I will write some tips for new players, to not face the issues that made me stop playing last time.

 

1) First of all, download this file and install it: https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/28663-looking-for-a-mod-that-changes-the-xp-gain/#comment-329315

I sincerely dislike when you are punished visiting a place too late and not get any perks. The file above makes it so that when you visit “The Tombs” area you are able to get your perk (hopefully, given that Ess-Eschas has added a limit I would like to remove).

Note: make a backup for the file in the game's folder before subbing it, so you can put it back should you be inclined to do so.

2) Always pump only one stat between fire shaping, magic shaping, combat shaping. Every time you add a point in one of the stat I mentioned above, the related (fire-magic-combat) creations gets a +1 to level. That makes them stronger and stronger.

As for me, I would advise pumping only fire shaping because Drayk are amazing. Fyora are a close second.
Note that inside the active abilities they’ve got an AOE attack – get it!! I’ve never used Overdrive (an active ability that you can add to your creations) in my game because I didn’t care.

I must thank Aoslare for making an amazing guide that you can find here where you can learn more about each creations and what you should aim for, if you plan to choose another shaping skill: https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/28844-analysis-creation-balance-in-mutagen/

3) There are two statistics really important in this game:
- Mechanic
- Leadership

Some people advise to change equipment before dialogues or before clicking on traps to have new option pop up. But I dislike this approach because I find it very gamey.

To have all options available, you should have 14 mechanic and 12 leadership. My suggestion is the following:

> reach 10 with mechanic, then get the +4 for Mechanics in the following places:
- Rydell's palace (there is a book in his chamber)
- the hills of Jar (canister)
- sealed lab (late in the game – you need a control rod that you can get in South Workshop)
- Flig the servile (You find him in the Winding Road)

> Leadership: pump it to 10. Then:
- Servile Halm in Drayk's Vale for 2000c (only if Leadership at least 3, not allied with Takers, and don't have Trajkov Amulet): Thanks mikeprichard
- Sealed Lab (late in the game – you need a control rod that you can get in South Workshop)

For all the other bonus statistics, if you care about them, take a look at this guide: https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26277-starting-skills-bonus-skills-and-stat-formulas/
Thanks to Mechalibur and mikeprichard for the topic above.

 

 

4) When you begin the game, you will learn about the serviles. In Sucia, you will find three different sects with their different creed:
- Obeyers (Pentil)
- Awakened (Vakkiri + Elhrah’s Keep)
- Takers (Kazg)

To join all sects and get all the perks they offer, there are two different ways:

a) [My way] Since you meet the first servile, always treat them like DIRT. When you’ve told them that they have to be obedient to shapers, you will able to join the Obeyers faction. You will be asked to feed Control Four (A servant Mind), but if you’ve got enough Leadership avoid doing so, given that the amount of Mind nutrients is limited in this game and feeding control four is not useful to your character.

Then, when you are sick of Obeyers (you choose when) go to Learned Darian in Peaceful Vale and tell him that he should put a good word out for you to the Awakened/Takers (it doesn’t matter which faction you choose as long as it is Awakened or Takers. Choosing one of the two will make you liked by both; more info on the why here: https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26282-gf1-mutagen-reputation-joining-several-factions/#comment-314769)

                                                                           OR
b) [Aoslare’s way] You can do it like it’s explained here: https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/28862-factions/#comment-325110

I will leave you to discover the perk of joining each faction. But if you are really curious, you can find them here:  https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/28862-factions/#comment-325093 (Huge credit to Aoslare for this).

 

5) Where to find Mind Nutrients + which servant mind require them (Thank you MattP for your walkthrough: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/562951-geneforge/faqs/16837)

 

Mind Nutrients (6): Ellhrah's Keep, Hill of Jars, Kazg, Holding 2, South Workshop, Holding Cells.

Minds requiring nutrients (7): Control 4, Control 3, Buried Cell mind, Mine Core Mind, Power Station Mind, Shaper Crypt Mind, Guarded Docks Mind.

6 mind nutrients, 7 minds that require them.

That’s why I suggest not to feed Control Four. Note that there is one Mind that you can tell to wake up without feeding if you have enough leadership, so that leaves you with enough Mind nutrients anyway.
In my playthrough, due to the description of the mind near death, I didn’t use Leadership because I thought the mind would later die while I would be in another zone where that same Mind is supposed to help you. Nothing of that happens, luckily.

 

Where to learn Sholai (Thanks Aoslare and Mikeprichard)

 

Pentil - If you are an Obeyer, Jaffee can teach you (you have to have learned the name Trakjov and have met Masha)

Pentil East - If you are Awakened, Sorkin can teach you.

Kazg - If you are a Taker, Toivo can teach you, or read the book in Toivo's tower.

Refugee Caves - Help Masha, or read the book in her chambers

Patrolled Dell - The book in the Sholai quarters.

Winding Road - Znaf can teach you if you pay.

Crossroads - Gavrila can teach you.

Research Quarters - A book in the quarters.

 

How do mines work: To disarm mines (the moving apples), you need to find a spore Baton. There are three colors, Grey, Green, Red. When you are near mines, you will be alerted about which spore baton you should use. As for location…
- grey spore baton; you can find one on

 

Northbridge

- green spore baton;
- red spore baton;

When used near mines, these disarm them.
 

Where to find entry Baton:

 

there are two; West Workshop, the other I forgot

Where to find control rod:

 

South Workshop

 

 

Servile warren - there is a door that doesn't open near the servant mind. For it to open, you need

 

an entry baton

 

How to get the barren bunker door to open: https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26320-how-to-get-this-door-opened-barren-bunker/

 

 Will post the review later.

Edited May 6 by Lorn

[ex post slarto]

Hey Lorn, can you please add in a warning to make a backup first, since you are directing people to install edited game files?  Thanks.

[Lorn]

Done.

[alhoon]

I slightly disagree with #2 in Mutagen. 

The way control works in Mutagen, it pays to eventually pump your other two Shaping classes a bit, to increase control. 

[ex post slarto]

That's definitely not worth spending skill points on.  Control isn't even something you need to worry about much if you have a strong team of creations.  But when it does matter, which is mostly just early on if even then, this can be managed by titrating your number of creations versus shaping skill (and not leaping to high level creations right off the bat).  Every PC level you gain reduces your control problems, so points you put into other shaping skills are ultimately wasteful -- and not a very efficient way to impact control anyway.

[Lorn]

I would say that I quite enjoyed this game and I will rate it a 8, not a 10 for the things I will explain later in this same review.

The good:
First of all, the setting is superb. You learn immediately what you represent and what it means for the servile under you. You go in the isle and you see what is the impact of the shapers when it comes to creating new life; what it means to be abandoned; if the servile warrant their independence so asked, while other servile keep functioning within the values your ancestors set them and trying to tell you that it’s the independent one not working well by not adhering to these values.

Second: The story is pretty great and functional enough within the frame offered by all the different zones you can explore; I haven’t met any boring one and I was happy to explore every part of Sucia. Also the fact that I could simply digress the way and go always somewhere else was amazing.

Third: all the mechanics are functional enough for the game. As for the UI, it’s okay, but not good.

Forth: the graphic is serviceable and works.
 

Fifth: the hintbook and the instructions are great.

 

Now the bad – maybe there were some settings inside the game I overlooked; in that case someone else will help.

- There are a lot of clicks that have to be done, especially with shaper class, that could be easily “removed” and would make a lot of players not waste their time. An example: I’m making a Drayk. All the Drayk I make are supposed to have everything but one active ability. So why am I supposed to do 8 clicks for each Drayk? The game should save my last “config” and make me use that one for all Drayks. If the essence is not enough, it should simply tell you (it does when you’ve got no essence) and revert it to “vanilla” config.

- As for the UI, I don’t understand why the hotkey buttons are from f5 to f9. The usage of the number from 1 to 9 should not be for the creatures, but for hotkeys. I guess the 1 to 9 is meant to be used for tactical positioning, but I haven’t met this dire need that makes me say “that was a good choice”. While I simply missed the fact that I could not bind 1 or 8 to my spells (even if I was a shaper and I used very few). I guess with an agent it would be a nightmare.
 

- It would have been way cooler if rather than green mines and purple mines you had grey mines, purple mines, red mines to make players simply realize at first sight what they should be needing.

- As for the mines, it’s not clear when you can disarm them and when not. There is no explanation. When they do not pop you usually use another spore baton. But it happens that they “resist” or they do not pop at all when you use all three spore baton.

What does “resist” mean? No clue. Does it mean that I have to reuse the spore baton? No clue.
And what about mines that do not pop off at all? No clue. I don’t’ remember a location when they resisted, but the lack of popping happened in the Barrens Bunker (Ascended Orobos location, near the incineration bunker).

 

- The game lacks informations. There are no informations provided to users. Mines above are the first example, but I will make another. Haste spell. I want to use on my hasted drayks. Does it sum up? No clue.

 

- The fact that I have to read a guide that tells me that I should pump up only one shaping to have decent creations is another bad lack of information. Okay, you can play suboptimally if you play on lower difficulties, but at cost of time and general enjoyment of the game (it’s not great when you waste time due to constant missing from your own fyora because you, as an ignorant player, think that spreading stats is better than pumping only one).

 

- The eastern mines are the worst area of any game I’ve played. I was a “pure” shaper, and I had to go back to Kazg every pylon. No, I pumped only shaping and I didn’t have batons. Yes, I’ve finished the airshock crystals. In the end, rather than moving back, go in, move back, go in, I started using the “healmenow” cheat. I simply used it every time I met a pylon. Really, having to go back is a huge waste of time.

- There was no “wooo” item for me inside the game. Well, there was one, and that one is the “Danette’s cloak” that has saved my life more than once. As for the others, I was really disappointed. There weren’t even great “stand out”. More than once I was undecided about what to use (robes in particular for my pure shaper)…

 

- The game is not kind to no reload player (I’m talking about Ironmans, so once you die, you cancel that character).

 

I wouldn’t play No reload for this game and that is due to the lack of information. You can, for example, disable pylons that you wouldn’t want to disable (e.g Underground river), and by trying to do so, you make the bridge stuck. The pylons here being activable are a beacon for few issues:
> If you do not have 14 mechanic, by trying to disable you simply die. Game should probably tell you that you do not have the skill to try, then allow you to do so anyway. My character knows more than me (he has 13 mechanic, I do not. I cannot judge as the player if my character can do something, but my character probably could and should).

> By providing the player with option, you make him think that you could probably also do well by clicking on the pylons. Basically, the way they are set, you make the player think that there are more options to solve a certain situation, only for him to die.

 

The same happens in another area where you meet a ghost in the bottom left that you can kill through the use of four pylons. The area has a lot of pylons, but it’s not clear what they do when disabled.

 

- I explored the Shaper Crypt and the Inner crypt. The constant remaking of mobs that kept respawning again and again made it so boring. Constantly fighting mobs with no xp gain is not cool. And you cannot use 14 mechanic to disable the respawning, nor disable the pylons. It’s silly and basically sets the player on only one way to play, while maybe he has pumped other skills (and these skills would be cool to be used, especially considering that 14 mechanics is used only in two instances – if I do not remember wrong it’s two).

The optimal play being “fight only” also happens also in other instances. There is a shaper ghost that you can persuade to go beyond with a leadership option. Good job! You lost his loot! The leadership option should allow you to skip the fight and get all the loot.

 

- The game should allow you to go over level 20 (I would appreciate it) and change the way levelling works. My optimal character is identical to another optimal character. Same amount of skill points, no way to differentiate it from another guy that plays in this forum, if not for the build selection. Also it shouldn’t nerf xp. Goettsch is level 23, why I can’t be level 23 as well.

 

- I regret the lack of option sometimes. For example, Trajkov has sent three different parties to take care of Goettsch. I would love, if allied with Trajkov, to be able to tell them all to meet each other in front of the temple and go in together. Can’t be done, or at least, I wasn’t able to.

[Lorn]

As for other things to be noted:

- [Bug?]: Icewalls, the doors did not open after I explored the west workshop. I guess the reason was because I already had the entry baton, so I left it there and the game didn't acknowledge it; and the sholai stayed inside these rooms.

- West Workshop: https://imgur.com/a/OeenNk8
Dank tunnels, rather than dark. Intended?

- The Cockatrice is the best looking creations, but I doubt very much any player could use it in a straight game, if not via the use of retrain. Has any player used it from beginning? Or at least tried to get it as soon as possible?

- Read inside the forum that leadership would improve your control of the creations. Doubt it.

- It's a shame you can't pump one creation to be the absolute best; I would like to have only one "pet" rather than 4+ creations. When I talk about absolute best I mean one Drayk that is as perfect as 3-4-5x Drayk. Make it a limited option, but make it special, so the player can actually turn affectionate to that single creation and not care about the others. That way it would be way cooler and it would make sense to name them. Right now they are all the same, with the same stats. What's the point of renaming them? 

Edited May 6 by Lorn

[Hyperion703]

Nice tips/review, Lorn. 

 

I agree with all your "good" points. There have been many attempts at combining fantasy with sci fi. But I believe few, if any, have done a better, more convincing job than the Geneforge setting. The two genres are so entwined here that sometimes it's difficult to figure where one ends and the other begins. It's a truly great mash up.

 

20 hours ago, Lorn said:

- The fact that I have to read a guide that tells me that I should pump up only one shaping to have decent creations is another bad lack of information.

I see what you mean, but this is just gaming/RPGing 101. Specialize, always specialize. Most games, digital or tabletop, aren't going to explicitly state that if you specialize you will reap greater rewards (in terms of power) than if you were a Jack of all Trades. But, it remains true nonetheless. Always specialize.

 

20 hours ago, Lorn said:

> If you do not have 14 mechanic, by trying to disable you simply die. Game should probably tell you that you do not have the skill to try, then allow you to do so anyway.

The way the game has it seems more true-to-life. For example, although my automobile driving skill proficiency is relatively high IRL, I wouldn't know that I could/could not maintain control of any particular motor vehicle unless I got behind the wheel and tried driving it. I mean, odds are very good for regular automobiles (otherwise test driving new cars wouldn't be a thing). But a school bus? Maybe. An 18-wheeler? Not likely. In fact, I believe these games are exceedingly generous in that you essentially 'roll' a 100% if you have a high enough proficiency. There isn't a margin of error regardless of level of ability like IRL (at least, not in mechanics checks). I think, by having it the way it is currently, it kind of mimicks that skills check/failure.

 

20 hours ago, Lorn said:

- There was no “wooo” item for me inside the game.

This I completely agree with. It holds true for GF2-I as well. Even the top-tier endgame equips and weapons (especially) were just okay at best. IIrc, this wasn't the case in other SW franchises. Maybe the dev wanted to highlight the spells/canisters and creations more with GF games. Because the items ain't it.

 

Edit: Now that I'm thinking about it, it would be thematically perfect for there to be "living weapons" in the GF setting. Symbiotic organisms "grown" like Living Tools to fuse or wrap around it's user. And further adding to the fantasy/sci fi fusion.

 

20 hours ago, Lorn said:

- I regret the lack of option sometimes.

Give it time. Once advanced AI gets into RPGs, it will produce dynamic, lifelike NPCs you'll be able to talk to like we're talking now. They will so closely resemble real people making real decisions that your actions towards them and their responses in kind will be almost infinitely diverse. It will likely be a decade or more for that level of AI integration into games, but it's coming. 

Edited May 7 by Hyperion703

[ex post slarto]

1 hour ago, Hyperion703 said:

advanced AI ... They will so closely resemble real people making real decisions that your actions towards them and their responses in kind will be almost infinitely diverse

we are nowhere near what is described here, despite the media misunderstandings of current ai models.  this isn’t just something that has to be integrated in rpgs, it’s something that has to be born.  10 years for this to be in games is optimistic at best.

[Randomizer]

Jeff mentioned years ago that he could make his games more efficient in targeting the players, but it would increase player frustration facing a smarter game. Basically using player tactics in fights against players.

[alhoon]

5 hours ago, Hyperion703 said:

This I completely agree with. It holds true for GF2-I as well. Even the top-tier endgame equips and weapons (especially) were just okay at best. IIrc, this wasn't the case in other SW franchises. Maybe the dev wanted to highlight the spells/canisters and creations more with GF games. Because the items ain't it.

 

Edit: Now that I'm thinking about it, it would be thematically perfect for there to be "living weapons" in the GF setting. Symbiotic organisms "grown" like Living Tools to fuse or wrap around it's user. And further adding to the fantasy/sci fi fusion.

 

 

For me, the "Shaper Robe" is it. +2 to creation levels. That's 2 levels worth of skill points for me (18 skill points at this point, it will increase soon). A single item = +2 levels. Yes, you can use canisters to boost one creation type. There are even a few canisters to boost the entire family. But all those keep existing and add to your robe. 
When I have bought up Fire Shaping to be worth 10 points per rank (which is soon) the robe will be 21 skill points! 

 

 

5 hours ago, Hyperion703 said:

Give it time. Once advanced AI gets into RPGs, it will produce dynamic, lifelike NPCs you'll be able to talk to like we're talking now. They will so closely resemble real people making real decisions that your actions towards them and their responses in kind will be almost infinitely diverse. It will likely be a decade or more for that level of AI integration into games, but it's coming. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Aoslare said:

we are nowhere near what is described here, despite the media misunderstandings of current ai models.  this isn’t just something that has to be integrated in rpgs, it’s something that has to be born.  10 years for this to be in games is optimistic at best.

 

I disagree and I am more optimistic. You don't need something as big as ChatGPT to emulate an AI that can hold a discussion as an NPC. 

Considering that you can have an AI actually hold a conversation in the guise of a king, or barman or drunken ogre in various free chat AI platforms already, I don't see why you expect it will be 10 years or longer for this to get more into games than it already is. 

In existing AI chat software even offline ones, you can hold a discussion with the AI. And in some AI chat software you can "tailor" the AI to have certain personalities and/or knowledge of the world (the "Assistants" of OpenAI API or the "My GPTs" of ChatGPT 4 and more).  

 

There are a couple of AI-made-RPG on steam, where you can chat with NPCs, that have decent reviews and were made last year.

I ended up refunding one because the ability to have OK-discussions with AI NPCs is not enough for me, I didn't like the complete "randomness" of the world. But regardless, in a human-made story, with human-made rules and a human-made world, the ability to have the barman actively talk to you about the rumors the developer have programmed the barman to give is well within our capabilities already. 

 

The question is: Why bother mostly... I am fine with choices 1. Would you like something to drink? 2. A room costs 2 coins for the night. 3. Yeah, I have heard interesting rumors! The baron [...]! 4. I would need some help. My cellar has big rats, if you kill them I will give you 10 coins! 

I don't want to have to type "Hello, innkeeper, what is your name?" to hear variations of "I am Tobarn, the owner of 'Cheese and beer'. Welcome. How can I help you?" and I don't think it is worth the effort, just for when someone will type "You worthless owner of this filthy place, tell me your name!" to get a rude answer. 

 

 

[ex post slarto]

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

You don't need something as big as ChatGPT to emulate an AI that can hold a discussion as an NPC.

 

You're right.  This isn't something ChatGPT is even remotely capable of.  On about 10 different levels.

[alhoon]

5 minutes ago, Aoslare said:

 

You're right.  This isn't something ChatGPT is even remotely capable of.  On about 10 different levels.

Unless I don't understand what you refer to as a discussion with an NPC, you are evidently wrong.

Edited May 7 by alhoon

[ex post slarto]

It's the thing I quoted and was responding to ("advanced AI ... They will so closely resemble real people making real decisions that your actions towards them and their responses in kind will be almost infinitely diverse").  I'm not arguing about this, but I will just say that you have some extremely misguided beliefs about what current AIs are capable of.

[Hyperion703]

@Aoslare A decade or more. Clearly you're in the camp of 'more.' And that's fine; I accounted for both. I stand by my statement.

[alhoon]

3 hours ago, Aoslare said:

It's the thing I quoted and was responding to ("advanced AI ... They will so closely resemble real people making real decisions that your actions towards them and their responses in kind will be almost infinitely diverse").  I'm not arguing about this, but I will just say that you have some extremely misguided beliefs about what current AIs are capable of.

Let's agree to disagree then, as chat AI that can respond to what you tell them are already here. There are already games where the AI makes the NPCs, their stories, the quests they give you etc. I also strongly believe you have some extremely misguided beliefs about what current AIs are capable of. Just using the free AI models gives you infinite ways to interact with basic NPCs for something as simple as "what do you suggest I should order in this inn?" to the waitress, or sharing a beer with the miners you saved. Those are very simple things for current AI to do and the AI's response would be tailored on your actions towards them (saving the miners, tipping the waitress) etc. in near-infinite ways. 

You can test that yourself.
Give an AI the prompt: " in a medieval fantasy world, assume you are a human miner called Tord, in the small town of Littlerock. You have recently been trapped in the mine you worked  in when goblins caused a collapse but the hero Uberman33a saved you and returned you to your family. You are drinking in the tavern a few days after your rescue. You, Tord, feel gratitude to your savior. Refer to me as if I am Uberman33a and approached to talk to you. "

And when I did that (ChatGPT4) I got: "Ah, Uberman33a! It's good to see ye in good health. I owe ye my life, and no words can rightly express the depth of my gratitude. The ale here might not be the finest, but it's got a warmth to it. Will ye join me for a drink?"

That is the level we are talking about. Infinite ways, that take into account your actions and words. Nothing too complex. 

That's not "a decade or more," that's where we are right now. 

Edited May 7 by alhoon

[ex post slarto]

12 hours ago, Hyperion703 said:

Give it time. Once advanced AI gets into RPGs, it will produce dynamic, lifelike NPCs you'll be able to talk to like we're talking now. They will so closely resemble real people making real decisions that your actions towards them and their responses in kind will be almost infinitely diverse. It will likely be a decade or more for that level of AI integration into games, but it's coming. 

 

10 hours ago, Aoslare said:

we are nowhere near what is described here, despite the media misunderstandings of current ai models.  this isn’t just something that has to be integrated in rpgs, it’s something that has to be born.  10 years for this to be in games is optimistic at best.

 

48 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

@Aoslare A decade or more. Clearly you're in the camp of 'more.' And that's fine; I accounted for both. I stand by my statement.

 

I read your original comment; the "or more" wasn't lost on me.  I didn't say "oh it's going to be 11 years, gotcha!"  You were emphasizing that "it's coming," and I think that 10 years is a very, very optimistic estimate.  That's all.  The "or more" doesn't change that.

[ex post slarto]

16 minutes ago, alhoon said:

That is the level we are talking about. Infinite ways, that take into account your actions and words. Nothing too complex. 

This is not actually what ChatGPT does.  It doesn't take your actions and words into account.  It creates the illusion that it does that, but it doesn't actually do that.  It basically just looks for matches, the same way a painter matches new paint to the color on an existing wall, which is why if you try enough variations of the same prompt it can start to feel like you're playing Mad Libs with a randomizer.  It doesn't handle concepts holistically or process logic, has no memory, and has extremely limited ability to even maintain internal consistency within a single output of its own.  "Infinite" is also demonstrably false.

 

I'm not going to agree to disagree.  You can do that if you want.  But facts are facts, and this sort of AI model does not work the way you think it does.

[alhoon]

Yes, if you want to be technical, it doesn't handle concepts holistically nor logically. It looks for the two most probable tokens to follow what is there, and randomly picks one or the other. 
And it works very well. 
The "illusion" it creates, is much better than having the same few lines (if not just a single one) for when the barkeep greets you.
This sort of AI models may not be "true" artificial intelligence the way a Servant Mind is or what you see in Sci-fi movies. But they are able to hold a conversation with the player that is more nuanced than having one way to say one thing. 

 

As for infinite:  The AI has about 1 billion different ways (1,073,741,824 ways) to produce a sentence of 30 tokens (20 or so words). That's what I mean with "infinite". 

 

Last but not least: As I said, there are already games out, since 2023, that the NPCs, the quests, the descriptions of the world(s) etc are all AI-made. All based on that simple "Pick one of the two most probable tokens to follow". 
I understand that those don't pass your own bar for "discussion like we have now" but for a lot of people, they do. 

Edited May 7 by alhoon

[Mechalibur]

I just can't see AI being particularly useful for unique fantasy settings. Sure, you can give an AI model the texts of various fantasy novels or game scripts, but how do you ensure it stays within the bounds of the world you're creating? That its dialogue is consistent and not contradictory with anything that makes the setting unique? How does it navigate ingests that are wildly different from each other into a coherent setting? Is there a guarantee that if a player asks a tavern keeper in the Geneforge setting about orcs they say "what the hell is an orc?" instead of taking some generic answer based on Lord of the Rings or Warcraft or whatever?

 

19 hours ago, alhoon said:

As for infinite:  The AI has about 1 billion different ways (1,073,741,824 ways) to produce a sentence of 30 tokens (20 or so words). That's what I mean with "infinite".

 

And I can generate billions of unique combinations by smashing my fists into a keyboard in different patterns. The issue isn't the literal number of combinations you can make, but the quality.

 

19 hours ago, alhoon said:

Last but not least: As I said, there are already games out, since 2023, that the NPCs, the quests, the descriptions of the world(s) etc are all AI-made.

 

Are they any good, though? Do they keep everything consistent and coherent or do they just generate content for the sake of having more content?

[alhoon]

14 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

That its dialogue is consistent and not contradictory with anything that makes the setting unique? How does it navigate ingests that are wildly different from each other into a coherent setting? Is there a guarantee that if a player asks a tavern keeper in the Geneforge setting about orcs they say "what the hell is an orc?" instead of taking some generic answer based on Lord of the Rings or Warcraft or whatever?

Yes, you can limit what the AI can say. It is how the AI chatbots avoid certain topics. Furthermore if you have not trained the AI in what an Orc is, but trained it only on geneforge lore, it won't know what an orc is. 

The question is probably: "Why bother doing that, when a few scripted lines work just fine?" 

 

17 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

And I can generate billions of unique combinations by smashing my fists into a keyboard in different patterns. The issue isn't the literal number of combinations you can make, but the quality.

 

I don't think that was the issue. But when it comes to quality, I can tell you that for most intents and purposes the quality of that 1 billion responses will be OK. 

Again, the question is probably: "Why bother doing that, when a few scripted lines work just fine?" We don't need 1 billion OK responses from the inkeeper. 

 

19 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

Are they any good, though? Do they keep everything consistent and coherent or do they just generate content for the sake of having more content?

 

One of the games I had in mind had 77% positive reviews on Steam. The other has 71% positive reviews.

If you my opinion? 
The 77% game was subpar to what I would like from a game. The reviews were too generous.

Still, It was consistent and coherent for the 1 - 1 1/2 hours I played. It did remember things that happened in the same area when I visited it again and it was learning what I was expecting but... I can't say I liked it. Yes, it is practically infinite. But so is No-Man's-Sky and I got bored of it pretty quick too. 

 

 

 

[ex post slarto]

50 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I don't think that was the issue. But when it comes to quality, I can tell you that for most intents and purposes the quality of that 1 billion responses will be OK. 

Lmao.  I don't mean to be rude, but I don't know how else to respond, we are living in such wildly different worlds.  I think maybe this is the crux of the issue.  Different people have very different standards for what feels "real enough" to not break immersion.  It seems that there may be quite an immense gap between the ease of satisfying e.g. alhoon's standards, and mine.

[ex post slarto]

There's an analogy here to a broader topic: the difference between manually-generated content and procedurally-generated content.

 

For more than 4 decades now, both types of computer RPGs have thrived.  One has never driven the other out of existence.  That's because have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

People like alhoon will say that procedurally-generated content is "infinite content," but really it's not.  This is because, as you play it repeatedly, the actual game space of the game, aka the actual gameplay experience, shifts slightly from what it is in a static, deliberately crafted game.

 

Consider a traditional RPG that has 6 different weapons, with strengths of 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, and 24.  Each weapon also has 1 or 2 special abilities.  And they are found or sold in different places at intervals throughout the game.  Players will quickly figure out which ones are most useful, which ones are good values for different portions of the game, for different classes or characters, etc.  And then those strategies will be the same every playthrough.

 

Now consider a procedurally-generated RPG that has random weapon drops.  Their strengths vary from 2 to 28, they have random combinations of special abilities, and the places they are found and sold in will vary.  Players will quickly figure out which possible generated weapons are most likely to be useful, where the most efficient places to look for them are, which classes might care more or less about finding the best one, etc.  And then those strategies will be the same every playthrough.

 

The strategic game space moves from being about the static values to ranges of possibles values.  In a way this is more complex, but it doesn't actually add any strategic depth.  It's not richer than a deliberately crafted game, and it's certainly not infinitely rich.  It is differently, likely refreshing, and worth playing for a lot of reasons.  But the array of possible results doesn't actually end up being richer than a sequence of deliberately crafted ones.  And the array is the same every time, the boundaries of possibility are the same every time, even though the exact weapons you see won't be.

[alhoon]

I don't disagree with you. Procedural generated games can be good and can be bad. 
As expected, when we talking about 'infinity' we didn't talk about the same thing. Your example is very good to show what I meant and also showing the limitations. 

Weapons with strengths 2-28 (assume uniform) and having no ability or one of three abilities: That's 4^27 possible different weapons.  That's for all intents and purposes an infinite number of... very similar things.
Will weapon str 24 ability 1 be that much different from weapon str 25 ability 1? Nope. 

Would a strength 6 weapon ability 2 ever be better than a strength 16 weapon ability 2? Nope. 

 

And if the "basic game" has crafting, as in a way to get your 4/8/12/16/20/24 weapon and give it one of the three abilities ... then it is now player choice instead of a random drop like Diablo. (Yes, I know some Diablo games have crafting too)  

 

Now, as for AI-generated chat giving a good enough illusion or not: Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder. For many of us, it is good enough. For some of us, it is not. 

And I will iterate the same argument I keep repeating: For 90% of the players, or even 95% of the players... you don't need anything more than a static message for the inkeeper or even the big bad or the quirky Drayk that smells the flowers and waits for a Messiah Fyora. 
The effort and money and processing power and most importantly: the developer's energy and creativity is better spent to think to put in a quirky Drayk that smells the flowers than to find a convoluted way for the innkeeper to tell you "Welcome to our establishment! Would you like some beer?" in 1,073,741,824 ways. 

Edited May 8 by alhoon