GF1: Mutagen - reputation / joining several factions

[mikeprichard]

Years back, I compiled the below extremely munchinky notes that worked in the original G1 to end as an Awakened (though I have made a few updates based on reading the new guidance - e.g. only Leadership 10 instead of 12 is now needed to join the Awakened without a quest; Learned Jaffee now teaches Create Fyora instead of Fire Shaping; I no longer plan to bother with joining the Takers as well, since their faction-locked benefits are trash, and they also happen to be psychopaths). If anyone with familiarity with GF1: Mutagen could please review the below and confirm whether it's still correct/possible, I'd appreciate it. One particular apparent change I don't understand is in Randomizer's atlas (https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26270-gf1-m-atlas-to-quests-and-items-massive-spoilers/), which notes "opinions or actions start at 100" and "Clakkit gives servile level of opinion and crimes (actions) as pro-servile, neutral, pro-Shaper". "Opinion" seems clear, as I assume it corresponds to original G1's simple "reputation" stat, with + and - opinion changes listed depending on dialogue and quest choices. However, I don't understand what "actions" exactly are, why they always show as positive and never negative in the atlas list, and whether/how these "actions" might affect my notes below. I also don't know whether joining the Obeyers still has a 90 or below reputation requirement, as I don't see any related notes in the atlas. Thanks!

EDIT: corrected to align with Randomizer's/Mechalibur's posts below and additional confirmation from Randomizer at https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26304-possible-bug-pentil-merchant-prices-still-ridiculous-when-allied-with-obeyers/?tab=comments#comment-314973:

The player starts the game with a "neutral" reputation of 100, with reputation of less than 100 considered "pro-Shaper" and more than 100 considered "pro-servile." Various conversation options during the game will increase or decrease your reputation accordingly; Learned Darian in Peaceful Vale can also be used to instantly set your reputation to either 90 (if greater than 90) or 110 (if less than 110), but only once. A reputation of 90 or below will allow you to join the Obeyer faction; a reputation of 110 or above will allow you to join the Awakened or Takers factions, although your reputation value for this purpose is checked only when each related faction quest is given. In addition, your current reputation value will affect merchant prices in the various faction strongholds, and Dig will only train you in Stealth if your reputation is at least 96.

To get the most quests/conversation options/loot, first say "pro-Shaper" things in order to get the Obeyer quest from Leader Rydell in Pentil to feed Control Four; complete the quest and join the Obeyers by talking to Leader Rydell, then talk to Learned Jaffee in Pentil for a free point in Create Fyora (if you have at least 5 Leadership) and a Sholai language lesson (if you've learned about Trakjov and have met Masha). Then, say “pro-servile” things in order to get the Awakened quest from Ellhrah in Ellhrah's Keep to kill Control Four; complete the quest and join the Awakened by talking to Ellhrah, then talk to Swan in Ellhrah's Keep for combat skill training and talk to Sorkin in Pentil East for a Sholai language lesson. (The Takers can also be joined for their rewards either before or after joining the Awakened. However, joining then leaving the Takers for another faction will cause everyone in Kazg to become permanently hostile.)

Edited February 28, 2021 by mikeprichard

[Slawbug]

Have you posted this before?  Some of this sounds awfully familiar... maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.

[mikeprichard]

I haven't for GF1: Mutagen at least, but some of the inspiration/info for this was from a topic you started a few years ago (https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/22174-g1-info-revelations/#entry289423), which I referenced when I did a second playthrough of original G1 around that time. But I don't think I actually posted what would have been a somewhat different version of my notes on the forum before... I could be wrong though!

EDIT: I had to hunt through my own old posts, but I did create a mini-guide post in 2014 on G5 reputations (https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/20588-geneforge-5-reputationfaction-guide-completecorrected/?tab=comments#comment-272443). Maybe that's what you were thinking of?

Edited February 25, 2021 by mikeprichard

[Randomizer]

Opinions are the reputation from the original version. They are used for joining a faction and whether Haim will sell you training in leadership. There are the direct opinion questions, your attitude when talking to them like "don't touch me," and for doing some quests.

 

Actions are helping serviles, but negatives are hostile actions like stealing and attacking friendlies in towns. I didn't listed the negatives because almost all players won't do them or at least to a level where they make a difference.

 

Only joining a faction gets you the lower pries from a town's stores. Also Pentil and Kazg will remove the Not Yours (NY) status from items in the town when you join a faction.

[Mechalibur]

Easiest way to join all factions is to say pro-Shaper stuff at the beginning, then join the Obeyers when you have enough. You can either do their quest, or bypass it with a Leadership 8 check. After joining and getting all the benefits you want, you can talk to Darian and switch to a pro-Servile reputation. After doing that, join the Awakened (you can do their quest even if you fed the servant mind earlier - just go back and kill it. Alternatively, Leadership 8 will let you skip). After getting what you want out of the Awakened, you could later join the Takers if you want (their quest bypass is leadership 10 instead of 8 though).

 

In Mutagen, I don't believe Leadership allows you to overcome having the wrong reputation for joining factions.

[Slawbug]

No wonder this sounded familiar, there's a sentence or two of mine that is mostly unscathed in there.  Heh.

[mikeprichard]

Thanks, Randomizer and Mechalibur - you two are machines! (And yes, Slarty, I probably did plagiarize from your posts for my own munchkininity.) So, Mechalibur's plan seems pretty close to my existing notes. A few specific follow-up questions, if you'd be so kind:

1) Do these "actions" (helping/hurting serviles) have any bearing on my munchkin guide above, i.e. on the ability to join factions and get the listed faction-locked rewards? If not, what specific game impact do they have?
2) Is reputation/opinion of 90 or below (i.e. 10 or more below the neutral 100 value) still required to join the Obeyers?
3) Will Darian still set your reputation/opinion value to either exactly 90 or exactly 110 - enough to allow joining the various factions?
4) Leadership (8 for Obeyers, 10 for Awakened and Takers per Randomizer's atlas) apparently only allows you to skip the joining quest for each faction, but Leadership alone will not allow you to join, correct? If so, this may not actually be a change compared to original G1 like I'd initially assumed; per my guide above, I never tried to use Leadership to join factions anyway, so I don't remember if I ever tried to join a faction without the needed reputation.
5) Are there any other uses to reputation/opinion in GF1: Mutagen than allowing to join one of the factions? Now that prices aren't affected by reputation/opinion per Randomizer, it seems a one-note stat (though that one note - joining a faction - is of course very important!).

Edited February 25, 2021 by mikeprichard

[Randomizer]

1) I know I saw action checks somewhere, but I can''t remember. It was probably dealing with merchants out of the towns.

 

4) Leadership isn't enough to join, you have to talk to serviles to get the opinion level, but their are enough if you haven't gone to extremes. I tend to skip talking to most of them about opinions to avoid that problem.

 

5) Haim in Drayk's Vale does a reputation check on selling Leadership training.

[mikeprichard]

Oh right, I forgot about Leader Halm's check for training (need Leadership of at least 3, but also can't be aligned with Takers, and can't have Trajkov Amulet). And you're right - I know there are way more reputation/opinion opportunities than I need just to reduce to 90 (for Obeyers - again, assuming that value hasn't changed) then to increase to 110 (for Awakened), so that's fine. I think I'm mostly set now - still not sure whether Darian will set you to a reputation of either 90 or 110 regardless of your current reputation value (which is how I think he worked in original G1), but that's just academic for my purposes, as I shouldn't even need to use the service. Cheers!

UPDATE: Obeyers seem to still have a 90 or less reputation check to join, per these lines in z13pentildlg.txt (if I'm reading correctly):
 

Spoiler

begintalknode 29;
    state = 11;
    nextstate = 200;
    condition = 1;
    question = "I want to support you. You have served us well, and this isle must be more obedient to the Shapers.";
    text1 = "For a moment, Rydell's awe is eclipsed by his cunning. He thinks about how well you could aid the Obeyer cause and whether you are a true representative of the Shapers. Finally, he speaks.";
    text2 = "_I am gratified that you would join us. Your words have marked you as a true Shaper. You may be worthy of our obedience. However, we require an act of you, to show that you are not trying to mislead us and act against the true Shapers.";
    text3 = "_Shapers can do what they want with us, true. However, true Shapers are not deliberately cruel and destructive. Your excessive crimes against our kind mark you as a false Shaper. I hope that your future acts redeem you._";
    text4 = "_Your words to others make us wonder if you are a true Shaper. You may be trying to incite serviles to disobedience and insurrection. Talk to more of our kind and urge the wisdom of obedience. Then we can be sure you are a true Shaper._";
    text5 = "_Until then, we can't be sure we should obey you. We can't risk of obeying one who would only lead us away from the true Shaper path._";
    code =
        clear_strings();
        add_string(1);
        if (get_flag(100,5) <= 70)
            add_string(2);
            else if (get_flag(100,1) > 90) {
                add_string(4);
                add_string(5);
                }
                else {
                    add_string(2);
                    set_flag(13,1,1);
                    }

Also, Darian does set to either 90 or 110 rep as needed, per z50pvaledlg.txt:
 

Spoiler

begintalknode 24;
    state = 14;
    nextstate = -1;
    condition = get_flag(50,4) == 0;
    question = "I would like to join the Awakened.";
    text1 = "_All right. I will send word of your intentions and beliefs to Ellhrah. I am sure he will now be more receptive to your wishes._";    
    code =
        set_flag(50,4,1);
        if (get_flag(100,1) < 110)
            set_flag(100,1,110);
    
begintalknode 26;
    state = 14;
    nextstate = -1;
    condition = get_flag(50,4) == 0;
    question = "I would like to work with the Obeyers.";
    text1 = "_All right. Rydell is not far away, so it will be easy for me to send my thoughts to him. My word should convince him you represent the true will of the Shapers._";    
    code =
        set_flag(50,4,1);
        if (get_flag(100,1) > 90)
            set_flag(100,1,90);
    
begintalknode 27;
    state = 14;
    nextstate = -1;
    condition = get_flag(50,4) == 0;
    question = "I would like to win the trust of the Takers.";
    text1 = "_My influence is limited there, but Gnorrel still listens to me. I will tell her what you said. I think it will help you win her trust._";    
    code =
        set_flag(50,4,1);
        if (get_flag(100,1) < 110)
            set_flag(100,1,110);

UPDATE UPDATE: Just one minor correction for Randomizer's atlas: per z7ellhrahdlg.txt, the Awakened Leadership needed to skip the faction quest is indeed 8 as Mechalibur noted, not 10 as in the atlas list.

Edited February 25, 2021 by mikeprichard

[Mechalibur]

53 minutes ago, mikeprichard said:

Thanks, Randomizer and Mechalibur - you two are machines! (And yes, Slarty, I probably did plagiarize from your posts for my own munchkininity.) So, Mechalibur's plan seems pretty close to my existing notes. A few specific follow-up questions, if you'd be so kind:

1) Do these "actions" (helping/hurting serviles) have any bearing on my munchkin guide above, i.e. on the ability to join factions and get the listed faction-locked rewards? If not, what specific game impact do they have?
2) Is reputation/opinion of 90 or below (i.e. 10 or more below the neutral 100 value) still required to join the Obeyers?
3) Will Darian still set your reputation/opinion value to either exactly 90 or exactly 110 - enough to allow joining the various factions?
4) Leadership (8 for Obeyers, 10 for Awakened and Takers per Randomizer's atlas) apparently only allows you to skip the joining quest for each faction, but Leadership alone will not allow you to join, correct? If so, this may not actually be a change compared to original G1 like I'd initially assumed; per my guide above, I never tried to use Leadership to join factions anyway, so I don't remember if I ever tried to join a faction without the needed reputation.
5) Are there any other uses to reputation/opinion in GF1: Mutagen than allowing to join one of the factions? Now that prices aren't affected by reputation/opinion per Randomizer, it seems a one-note stat (though that one note - joining a faction - is of course very important!).

 

1. No idea, I only paid attention to the reputation end. I was a nice shaper and didn't steal

2. 90 or lower should work

3. Yeah, he sets the reputation to exactly what you need to join

4. Right, you can't bypass reputation check failure with leadership.

5. I think that's the biggest use for reputation. Dig won't teach you Stealth if your reputation is 95 of lower, so that's one other area affected. There are probably others but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

[Randomizer]

Jeff must of changed the oil Awakened leadership check. I know from earlier in testing needing it as a Pacifist.

[Mechalibur]

Weirdly enough it was a whopping 12 in the original game, tied for the highest check in the game.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Mechalibur

[mikeprichard]

Just now, Mechalibur said:

Weirdly enough it was a whopping 12 in the original game, tied for the highest check in the game.

I did notice that - Jeff made quite a few little logic "fixes" like this, it seems, which is nice. Anyway thank you two yet again - I've been keeping you busy today, but based on your responses and my further research in the .txt files just above, I'm now all set - I've edited my original post above, and am ready to rep-cheese (new word) my way to all the lewt!

[Kennedy]

What about leaving the Obeyers and then rejoining them again later in the game? For the remake I originally joined the Obeyers, then switched to the Awakened, and in the end went with the Takers.

[Mechalibur]

You can't rejoin a faction after leaving them.

[RedBeard]

On 2/25/2021 at 6:30 AM, mikeprichard said:

To get the most quests/conversation options/loot, first say "pro-Shaper" things in order to get the Obeyer quest from Leader Rydell in Pentil to feed Control Four; complete the quest and join the Obeyers by talking to Leader Rydell, then talk to Learned Jaffee in Pentil with at least 5 Leadership for a free point in Create Fyora and a Sholai language lesson. Then, say "pro-servile" things in order to get the Awakened quest from Ellhrah in Ellhrah's Keep to kill Control Four; complete the quest and join the Awakened by talking to Ellhrah, then talk to Swan in Ellhrah's Keep for combat skill training and talk to Sorkin in Pentil East for a Sholai language lesson.

 

This is the most important piece of Information provided ever! Worth its weight in Gold! 📀📀

[mikeprichard]

Ha, glad someone else found it useful! As Mechalibur also mentioned, you could add on joining the Takers at the end if you wanted... but why would you??

[alhoon]

Why would anyone join the Obeyers either? (I haven't met them yet but I like free serviles, not disposable sentient things) 

[mikeprichard]

To take their rewards, of course! If they're going to be such mooks, might as well oblige them... but then end the game allied with the only reasonable folks on the isle, Ellhrah's peeps. (obviously, there are limits to my roleplaying ethics)

Edited February 26, 2021 by mikeprichard

[Mechalibur]

The Amulet you get for joining theTakers in incredibly useful for navigating quite a few end game zones. Fighting through the Geneforge Complex is just a pain without it. It also gets you extra quests for exp from Takers and Sholai.

[mikeprichard]

Good point - I understand having the Amulet will prevent getting training from Learned Halm, but otherwise the gameplay benefits are noted. Roleplay-wise though, I usually just mop up the kooky hypocrites and take (Take) their stuff.

Edited February 26, 2021 by mikeprichard