Looking for a mod that changes the xp gain

[Lorn]

Hello,
I'm enjoying this game very much. But there is one thing that leaves me a bit conflicted. The fact that you are punished if you don't do areas in a certain order.

I've been cleaning some areas now only to be getting +2 xp from monsters. I would like to ask if there is a mod that:

a) Changes the gained xp to the max value for every creatures, no matter what's your level.
b) makes it possible not to powerplay, by letting you get some points when clicking on sarcophagus and they tell you that there is nothing to learn.

Both approach seems to be extremely punishing for players that do not powerplay.

 

[Ess-Eschas]

Hello Lorn,

 

I can help you out with one of your requests, but I’m afraid the other is rather more difficult. The way spiderweb constructs its games means that certain aspects of them are nicely set up for modding, but some types of behaviour are really very difficult to alter!

 

Thankfully, changing the sarcophagi can be done relatively simply. Below is a link to a little mod that changes their behaviour; the sarcophagi should now always give the player exactly one point in the statistics they’re linked to the first time they’re used. That’s regardless of whether you’ve trained in that statistic or not. Note that the sarcophagi’s other behaviour is unchanged, so you will only ever be able to gain one point from each of them, and no more.

 

For practical purposes, I’ve put an upper limit on this behaviour. You won’t be able to get this point if the value in the skill is exceptionally high – but since the limit is much higher than anything achievable honestly in the game, I’m hoping that shouldn’t cause any problems!

 

Here’s the link:

 

https://we.tl/t-JqVCHUVirG

 

To install this mod, navigate to Geneforge’s ‘Resources’ folder. This is found in different places depending on your system, and where you’re running the game from. On a Mac, run using a standalone application, it’s found inside the application, under Contents/Resources. If you’re having trouble finding this folder, you might be able to get there by searching for the file ‘z16sarco.txt’.

 

Make a copy of the game's version of 'z16sarco.txt', and keep it in a safe place. You’ll want a copy of it in case anything goes wrong, so you can restore the game to original state! Now, place the altered ‘z16sarco.txt’ from the download above into the Resources folder. The game is now modded. If you’re working from a saved game inside the Tombs, I’d suggest leaving the area and then returning, just to make sure the new scripts are loaded correctly.

 

As for changing experience, I’m afraid that’s much more difficult. I believe experience gains are hard-coded into the engine, so making any alterations there would be extremely difficult.

 

It might be possible to come up with a crude workaround just using scripts but, from what I’ve seen, that would also be difficult, and probably time-consuming. The experience scaling system used in Geneforge would, I think, make it very hard to write a script that would give you *exactly* the experience you wanted at any point. You could very easily end up overshooting, possibly by quite a lot, and that could damage your gameplay experience in other ways.

 

However, for what it’s worth, I think you might be looking at Geneforge’s experience model from a slightly odd angle. Things might not be quite as bad as you think they are! The way Geneforge handles experience means that, generally speaking, you get more experience for dealing with monsters more powerful than you, and less for those less powerful than you. Broadly, the experience system balances out the gains and losses regardless of what routes you take. So, you might be getting less experience now from certain fights, but that’s because you’ve gotten quite a lot more from others already.

 

This is all just to say that it might seem as if you’re working to a loss now, but you probably aren’t! If you’d taken other routes and used other choices, you’d probably still be roughly about the same place experience-wise now! So you’re not being punished for your choices, really. You’ve just taken one particular path from a bunch of possible ones available to you, the majority of which should be roughly equivalent. The testing team tried to make sure of that, at least!

 

So I wouldn’t worry too much. I suspect you’re probably in a better position experience-wise than you think!

[Lorn]

Thanks a lot Ess-Eschlas for the plugin.

I had hoped one could nullify the effects of the script that decreases xp (such effects are described here: https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26429-how-does-experience-and-leveling-work/#comment-315963)

My issue with the experience is not that it won't be enough -  actually, I saw a lot of reports and people tend to end near level 18 - 20.

My issue is that no matter which level you are, such a system wastes the player's time.

If you are high level, exploring low level area means that you are wasting time because enemy tends to give little to no xp. Of course, there is loot and story, but that way, I could simply take a look at the wikipedia.

If you are low level in a high level area, you are still wasting time, because, even if you can can clear the area with enough time, what you are intended to do is going back to the village to continously remake your own creatures or heal.

 

I don't think that, in both cases, we are talking about an enticing gameplay.

By the way, I finished Geneforge today. I simply cheated all the xp I needed in and player for the story. I could have used wikipedia too and wasted way less time, but the story is pretty good and the game is not that bad.  

Edit 1: I would go a little further by saying that it would be cool if the actual malus on xp were to be applied based on difficulty. So..
casual = you get always the + xp
Normal = you get normal experience (+0)
Hard = (-15)
Torment (-30)

Edited June 30, 2023 by Lorn

[googoogjoob]

I think that you seem to want something that's fundamentally at odds with Geneforge's design philosophy.

 

Geneforge uses level scaling for experience because it aims to be relatively balanced- the average player should be at or around level X by point Y in the game, such that the game does not become too easy or too hard, so long as the player is progressing through areas appropriate to their overall progress through the game. But most of the game's maps are optional. It's possible to win the game- to really win it, getting a proper ending- while engaging minimally, if at all, with half the maps. Level scaling on EXP means that most players will finish the game at level 19 or 20 without necessarily clearing every map, and that's what the endgame is balanced for.

 

Further, some maps are heavily slanted towards combat, and some towards noncombat problem-solving, such that not every character is necessarily going to be able to get through every map. Some maps have very desirable loot, and some have important lore revelations. Some are super-hard challenge maps, which, by design, only a minority of players will clear. This- the combination of areas being optional, and areas varying in their challenges and rewards- is deliberate. It makes the world feel like something that exists beyond the bare needs of a video game plot, and it positions exploration and experimentation as interesting things for the player to do.

 

Removing scaling would fundamentally break the game, and undermine these design goals. It would mean that players could reach the endgame at a much, much broader array of levels- and either the endgame would be balanced for the low end of the range, and thus too easy for more thorough players, or it'd be balanced for the high end of the range, and obligate players to clear much more of the map to have a chance at beating it.

 

It sounds like what you want is something like the latter- not necessarily a higher level cap, but a more steady stream of experience spread evenly across the gameworld. But that'd mean much slower levelling (and regular levelling is another Spiderweb design goal), and obligate players to clear much more of the gameworld to have a chance in the endgame (undermining the free-form, open design of the gameworld).

 

If the main or only thing you find rewarding in an RPG is gaining experience at a constant rate throughout the game, I'd recommend you look at the Avadon games instead, as their much-more-linear design means that you gain experience at a more consistent rate.

Edited June 30, 2023 by googoogjoob

[Aoslare]

12 hours ago, Lorn said:

If you are high level, exploring low level area means that you are wasting time because enemy tends to give little to no xp...

 

I guess you've found a way to apply the corporate approach to billable hours, to playing RPGs...

[Lorn]

7 hours ago, googoogjoob said:

I think that you seem to want something that's fundamentally at odds with Geneforge's design philosophy.

 

Geneforge uses level scaling for experience because it aims to be relatively balanced- the average player should be at or around level X by point Y in the game, such that the game does not become too easy or too hard, so long as the player is progressing through areas appropriate to their overall progress through the game. But most of the game's maps are optional. It's possible to win the game- to really win it, getting a proper ending- while engaging minimally, if at all, with half the maps. Level scaling on EXP means that most players will finish the game at level 19 or 20 without necessarily clearing every map, and that's what the endgame is balanced for.

 

Further, some maps are heavily slanted towards combat, and some towards noncombat problem-solving, such that not every character is necessarily going to be able to get through every map. Some maps have very desirable loot, and some have important lore revelations. Some are super-hard challenge maps, which, by design, only a minority of players will clear. This- the combination of areas being optional, and areas varying in their challenges and rewards- is deliberate. It makes the world feel like something that exists beyond the bare needs of a video game plot, and it positions exploration and experimentation as interesting things for the player to do.

 

Removing scaling would fundamentally break the game, and undermine these design goals. It would mean that players could reach the endgame at a much, much broader array of levels- and either the endgame would be balanced for the low end of the range, and thus too easy for more thorough players, or it'd be balanced for the high end of the range, and obligate players to clear much more of the map to have a chance at beating it.

 

It sounds like what you want is something like the latter- not necessarily a higher level cap, but a more steady stream of experience spread evenly across the gameworld. But that'd mean much slower levelling (and regular levelling is another Spiderweb design goal), and obligate players to clear much more of the gameworld to have a chance in the endgame (undermining the free-form, open design of the gameworld).

 

If the main or only thing you find rewarding in an RPG is gaining experience at a constant rate throughout the game, I'd recommend you look at the Avadon games instead, as their much-more-linear design means that you gain experience at a more consistent rate.

Thanks a lot for sharing your opinion and considering my words.

I realize that it may be risky to have xp given like I asked, but that would be way more rewarding (in my eyes) than the current system, where the time sinked in is not valued at all.

If I had a time machine, I would go back in time when there was the kickstarter and actually donate money to ask Jeff to add an experimental setting where you can actually set the malus/bonus on xp gained according to the level of your own character.

 

I have to ask another thing: I also have Avernum, escape from the Pit. Does it have the same system, where, according to your level, you get a bonus or malus on xp?
 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Lorn

[Aoslare]

12 hours ago, Lorn said:

Does it have the same system, where, according to your level, you get a bonus or malus on xp?

 

Yes.  Question for you:

 

Most RPGs have a system where XP isn't adjusted for level.  Instead, the amount of XP you need to get a level up changes dramatically as your levels go higher.

 

In practice, these systems end up having almost the same effect.  It's true that 10 experience doesn't get rounded down to 0 if you now need 50,000 experience to get a level up, but getting 1/5,000 of a level up is never going to be meaningful anyway.

 

Do you have just as much of a problem with this more common system?  In which case you're essentially arguing for something like "every complete zone gets you the equivalent of 1 level up, regardless of what level you're at"?  Or are you objecting more to the feeling of getting 0 experience, even though in practice it might not be any different from getting the full amount, but having massively scaled up XP total requirements?

[Lorn]

I don't dislike one system or the other. What I dislike is when you force a lack of progress or advancement on the player.

 

There is another game that does the same and where it gets frequently complained about: Baldur's gate 1.

 

There, you got a level cap: once you reach 161k, no more xp gets gained. If you search on the .net, you will find a lot of people asking to remove the level cap (there is a mod for that, luckily), because it isn't even remotely rewarding to have such a system put on the player.

Of course, you will still be strong enough to end the game, but you are basically leaving the player with the idea that spending more time on the game won't reflect appropriately on his own character. And personally, once I reached 161k, I just stopped exploring and finished the main quest. 

[Aoslare]

6 hours ago, Lorn said:

I don't dislike one system or the other. What I dislike is when you force a lack of progress or advancement on the player.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that both systems do this.

 

The math is different, the numbers are different, but the actual result in terms of level-ups is identical every step of the way.

[Lorn]

I realized that. I'm still left wondering if I should get Geneforge 2 due to the xp system not being tasty.
 

 

[alhoon]

It is an exceptional game in my opinion. 

[Lorn]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:45 PM, Ess-Eschas said:

Hello Lorn,

 

I can help you out with one of your requests, but I’m afraid the other is rather more difficult. [...]

 

Thankfully, changing the sarcophagi can be done relatively simply. Below is a link to a little mod that changes their behaviour; the sarcophagi should now always give the player exactly one point in the statistics they’re linked to the first time they’re used. That’s regardless of whether you’ve trained in that statistic or not. Note that the sarcophagi’s other behaviour is unchanged, so you will only ever be able to gain one point from each of them, and no more.

 

For practical purposes, I’ve put an upper limit on this behaviour. You won’t be able to get this point if the value in the skill is exceptionally high – but since the limit is much higher than anything achievable honestly in the game, I’m hoping that shouldn’t cause any problems!

 

Here’s the link: https://we.tl/t-JqVCHUVirG

 

To install this mod, navigate to Geneforge’s ‘Resources’ folder. This is found in different places depending on your system, and where you’re running the game from. On a Mac, run using a standalone application, it’s found inside the application, under Contents/Resources. If you’re having trouble finding this folder, you might be able to get there by searching for the file ‘z16sarco.txt’.

 

Make a copy of the game's version of 'z16sarco.txt', and keep it in a safe place. You’ll want a copy of it in case anything goes wrong, so you can restore the game to original state! Now, place the altered ‘z16sarco.txt’ from the download above into the Resources folder. The game is now modded. If you’re working from a saved game inside the Tombs, I’d suggest leaving the area and then returning, just to make sure the new scripts are loaded correctly.

 

Hey, do you still have a copy of the mod? I can't find the file anymore :P 

[Lorn]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:03 PM, alhoon said:

It is an exceptional game in my opinion. 

I know that. And I feel so bad for overlooking it for this reason. :P

 

[Ess-Eschas]

6 hours ago, Lorn said:

Hey, do you still have a copy of the mod?

 

Of course! Here's a fresh download link for you:

 

https://we.tl/t-WQ2Mn5mOTo

[Lorn]

10 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

 

Of course! Here's a fresh download link for you:

 

https://we.tl/t-WQ2Mn5mOTo

thanks a lot <3

[Lorn]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:17 PM, Slawbug said:

 

The point I'm trying to make is that both systems do this.

 

The math is different, the numbers are different, but the actual result in terms of level-ups is identical every step of the way.

I didn't notice you were the same guy that made the mod. I will explain myself another "issue"

 

If you explore high level places while being low level, you are going to take a lot of time killing (a) high level creature(s); you will get back only a meager part of that time when you face low level creatures if you have an high level (because by being higher level you kill low level creatures faster).

Basically, the system clashes with the supposed “freedom” that you should have in rpg. You do not have a pre-determined route to follow, but if you don't follow what's intended by the dev, you are simply
a) wasting your time
b) going to explore low level places only for a completionist thing, because being higher level you don’t get any xp, only lore related things and you still waste time killing the creatures (well you are indeed faster given that you are higher level).

 

I wonder if someone made a map with step by step on where to go :P

[l33tmaan]

"Only" lore related things? That's half the reason to explore.

[Aoslare]

3 hours ago, Lorn said:

You do not have a pre-determined route to follow, but if you don't follow what's intended by the dev, you are simply
a) wasting your time
b) going to explore low level places only for a completionist thing, because being higher level you don’t get any xp, only lore related things and you still waste time killing the creatures (well you are indeed faster given that you are higher level).

 

If you consider combat to be a waste of time rather than something that is at least slightly fun in and of itself, I think you will find a large part of the RPG genre -- and especially the classic RPG genre -- to be annoying.

 

This is kind of just how the genre works.  It's like playing a platformer and saying that you need to receive a quantifiable reward of some sort every time you jump.

[Lorn]

On 4/25/2024 at 1:19 AM, Ess-Eschas said:

 

Of course! Here's a fresh download link for you:

 

https://we.tl/t-WQ2Mn5mOTo

Question about this file: I would like to get the bonus in the sealed lab too (preferably uncapped). Does this file touch that area too?

Edited Wednesday at 03:37 PM by Lorn

[Magenta]

Personally, I think scaling the experience based on level is genius. I'm not fond of min-maxing - it's a little too tedious for me. I'd rather just enjoy the game. But I also know that some people enjoy the challenge of squeezing out every last shred of XP they can get. The genius part is that this game accommodates both approaches nicely. 

It's a truly open-ended game where no matter which way you go, everything works out. If you are getting very little XP in one area, it's probably because you got more than expected in another. Or because you are being very thorough and clearing as many areas as possible. I enjoy clearing those areas - they often give very different challenges requiring different approaches. And those little bits of XP do eventually add up. It's not like you have to get 100,000 to level up. In the end, everyone ends up somewhere close to the same level. Sure, the min-maxers might have a level or two more than me, but I'll get a little more XP for taking out those final bosses.  Once I realized this, I quit worrying about XP and just focused on enjoying the game.

 

I think if Spiderweb ever changed this approach, most of us would ragequit in dismay.