Danette and Hubris

[Val Ritz]

Had a bit of a shower thought when I was mulling over the Geneforge and the canisters: Defniel was right, damn the Geneforge! And Danette, while we're at it, for pushing for it so hard.

 

When I think about the actual substance of the discoveries on Sucia and the ways they could be used if developed responsibly (read: the way Shapers usually do) it's kind of mind-blowing. They could have gone public with just the microscopes and genes alone and revolutionized the world. But no, the first thing they HAVE to do is make devices that give you the power to blow things up with your mind in exchange for your empathy. Danette's got to go on a power trip and make a pool of sludge that turns people into antisocial demigods. They could have cured diseases, taken quantum leaps in tool design, the sky's the limit. Instead, they turned people into monsters.

 

But when I really think about it, Shaper society and practices set them up for failure. Traditional Shaper training on creations involves exact recipes for specific creation designs, with some mild leeway for changing large systems (e.g., fyora to cryoa, roamer to pyroroamer) or exaggerating traits (battle alpha to battle beta to battle gamma, etc.). The researchers literally didn't know how to make a canister that, say, only modified you enough to cure one disease. There's some basis in established theory for Shaping something to make it spit fire, or give it hulking muscles, or give it magical abilities. There's a very limited basis for precision modification. Add that to the Romanesque glory-hounding endemic to all research Shapers. Everybody's looking to make the biggest of all possible splashes, and Danette was too smart for her own good.

 

If the research team had dropped the Geneforge idea, just stopped at canisters, there might have been room to walk the Council back from a total Barring. They might have Barred the use of canisters to grant Shaping abilities or magic spells, and focused on digging into the new field of gene-Shaping that they discovered. But when confronted by a literally completed Geneforge, ready to turn anyone into a god in a span of seconds, there was nothing else for them to do. It had already gone too far.

 

Damn the Geneforge.

[alhoon]

 

SPOILERS FOR GENEFORGE 5!!!! 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Val Ritz said:

Damn the Geneforge.

 

Which is how the series end in all its cases.  But in the meantime, the geneforge gave the Rebellion a very large pool of Lifecrafters to fight against the thousands of Shapers. 

Terrestia would not be free from the Shaper yoke without the geneforges. 

 

Hurrah to the Geneforge. And Danette's mad ambition. 

Although, it has served its purpose. 

[Val Ritz]

4 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

SPOILERS FOR GENEFORGE 5!!!! 

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

 

Which is how the series end in all its cases.  But in the meantime, the geneforge gave the Rebellion a very large pool of Lifecrafters to fight against the thousands of Shapers. 

Terrestia would not be free from the Shaper yoke without the geneforges. 

 

Hurrah to the Geneforge. And Danette's mad ambition. 

Although, it has served its purpose. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

I think it's pretty funny that even the Rebellion realized that a "full" Geneforge was a horrible idea, judging by how the one prospective Lifecrafters use only gives you limited abilities.

 

[alhoon]

 

9 minutes ago, Val Ritz said:

 

judging by how the one prospective Lifecrafters use only gives you limited abilities.

Not entirely true. Jarred and Shaila got a lot of mileage out of it; it is for game balance reasons only, I think, that the player gets just what he or she does. I would also point out that while "limited" in the sense you don't get a +8 to all stats it does give you actual Shaper knowledge; you can study books and all and do research. I.e. you are not like the Barzhite Can-Shapers or What's-his-name in 2nd island of GF3 that can do just the tricks the was Shaped to do. 

[Randomizer]

It's more after the Geneforge used in GF2, the dragon allies want to limit how much of an upgrade their servile and common man allies get. They realize that giving a full GF1 upgrade will make them too powerful and shift the balance.

 

Just look at how powerful the canister mad Barzites got.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

It's more after the Geneforge used in GF2, the dragon allies want to limit how much of an upgrade their servile and common man allies get. They realize that giving a full GF1 upgrade will make them too powerful and shift the balance.

 

Just look at how powerful the canister mad Barzites got.

 

Not too powerful. At least, not powerful enough for me to wipe the floor with them. Also, the Takers had no issue with how powerful humans could be. They say so in GF4 and GF5. 

I think the main issue is that you don't have Danette anymore. Taygen, for all his evil, could perhaps make a better Geneforge. The ones the humans and even the Drakons made, are weaker. IIRC the GF4 geneforge didn't even need gloves.

 

The one the Takers have in GF2 is also weaker than subsequent ones. 

Edited April 21 by alhoon

[l33tmaan]

YOU make a pool that gives you +8 in nearly every skill and try not to get an ego about it.

That being said, you're absolutely right with how Danette and friends could've just presented the knowledge of genetics to the Council and revolutionized the world forever. They couldn't even wait to get off Sucia and let someone else go crazy with the power, they just IMMEDIATELY jumped straight to self-modification! I haven't replayed GF1 since the remake came out, did they ever describe in detail how they made the jump from "reading DNA" to "magic goop that makes you a god"?

Dude, why not just make a canister that makes you better at making canisters? 

[ultra112]

To be perfectly honest what Danette and her team researched on Sucia is absolutely ground breaking and would have revolutionized Shaping forever; but sadly they let this excitement went right up to their heads and ruined the whole thing as a result, not to mention leaving a huge mess for us to clean up afterwards.

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

To be perfectly honest what Danette and her team researched on Sucia is absolutely ground breaking and would have revolutionized Shaping forever; but sadly they let this excitement went right up to their heads and ruined the whole thing as a result, not to mention leaving a huge mess for us to clean up afterwards.

Why so? 

Taygen has those scrolls in his lab and it is not destroyed. 

[ultra112]

Wait he had those scrolls? Ok didn't know about that one though. 

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, ultra112 said:

Wait he had those scrolls? Ok didn't know about that one though. 

Yeap. From all of them, Taygen has it. And obviously, like the Wise Shaper he is, promoted for his genius and skill, what he does with this awesome power is: 

Create a plague that is extremely contagious and absolutely deadly to creations, hitting them at the most fundamental level. A complete genocide of anything, from Unbound and Shredbugs down to Ornks and Batons. 

 

Think of it like pressing the button and destroying all electronics in our world. 

Edited April 22 by alhoon

[ultra112]

you know I always thought of the purity agent as a biological warfare version of a nuke.

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

you know I always thought of the purity agent as a biological warfare version of a nuke.

Not really; it doesn't do big devastation that renders an area uninhabitable for years and hazardous for decades. 

The equivalent of a nuke is a spawner that makes rogues that can reproduce. 

[Randomizer]

Purity Agent is more like a neutron bomb in that it kills creations and leaves the buildings standing like most biological warfare.

[ultra112]

oh right, that seems to be more likely the one

[l33tmaan]

5 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Purity Agent is more like a neutron bomb in that it kills creations and leaves the buildings standing like most biological warfare.

How come shapers don't do more bio-warfare, anyway? Lack of ability? Actual ethical limitations?

[Mechalibur]

Ethical concerns, I'd say. There are a lot of specific areas of research they consider off limits, and it makes sense biological warfare would be among those. 

 

The Taker ending in G2 

Spoiler

Basically has you locked up building bio weapons for the Takers, so it's definitely possible with Shaping.

 

[Randomizer]

It may also be a forgotten reason prohibition to the original war on Such Island that is mentioned in the Standing Sentinels zone where they tried something like that with disastrous consequences. They lacked control over side effects since it was knew to them.

[alhoon]

28 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

How come shapers don't do more bio-warfare, anyway? Lack of ability? Actual ethical limitations?

 

First, everything the Shapers do in war, is bio-warfare. 

Second, they do diseases. In GF3 you find one. Also, the Takers use diseases in their fights. However, in the Game's timeframe, the Shapers are in control. Why would they create a disease to fight 16 bandits in the woods or something like an uprising of 10 villages? There is no widespread rebellion or big-sized enemy to necessitate something as double-edged as a disease. 

[l33tmaan]

Ah, I haven't played GF3 in almost a decade, nor did it really stick with me. Thanks for the reminder!

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, l33tmaan said:

Ah, I haven't played GF3 in almost a decade, nor did it really stick with me. Thanks for the reminder!

But it is not just in GF3 though; in all games a disease is mentioned. I mean, in GF2-I there's a big quest to fight a disease. 

[l33tmaan]

Yeah, but that wasn't an engineered disease, as far as I could tell. It seems to have just come up from people living in a swamp, which sounds normal to me.

[alhoon]

53 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

Yeah, but that wasn't an engineered disease, as far as I could tell. It seems to have just come up from people living in a swamp, which sounds normal to me.

Then why did it affect only serviles? 

[Aoslare]

I mean, that is how diseases in the real world work.  The thing that makes a pathogen cause disease has something to do with host cells, and is therefore species-dependent.

[l33tmaan]

You're being conspiratorial! Aren't serviles not quite the same as humans, biologically? Why did it also affect Emily?

[oceanes]

10 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

You're being conspiratorial! Aren't serviles not quite the same as humans, biologically? Why did it also affect Emily?

Well, Emily wasn't exactly a normal human by the time we meet her. It might depend on how she was altered, and what was used as a template for the modifications.

[alhoon]

Wait, if the disease hits Shaped-people instead of Creations... my character needs to start stocking antibiotics. 

[Mechalibur]

10 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

Yeah, but that wasn't an engineered disease, as far as I could tell. It seems to have just come up from people living in a swamp, which sounds normal to me.

 

Correct. Per the game text:

 

"Though we did not make the disease which afflicts Awakened serviles, it is useful. Will watch for infection here. With our work, cure is easy. Look deep within disease. See weakness."

 

They didn't make the disease, but they did withhold the cure for it.