Game Mechanics vs. Lore

[JDubkins]

I'll start by saying that I was overwhelmingly pleased with the changes the Geneforge 1 remake brought; I don't want this thread to turn into a haven for blanket grievances on things we wish had been. However, there is a singular disconnect between the game mechanics and the lore that somewhat ruins the immersion for me, at least in the most recent remake.

 

In the lore, we know that Shapers have the ability to control their creations over a potentially large distance. I'm most familiar with Geneforge 3 through 5, so I'm not aware of the prevalence of this bit of lore in the early installments, but in the later games, this fact isn't just trivial: it plays a large role on the trajectory of the war and the overall game narrative. With that simple fact established, let's talk game mechanics...

 

Not every piece of lore can or should be translated to game mechanics. I get that. However, I believe in the original games, you could select any number of creations/followers apart from yourself and send them across the map without your protagonist having to be selected. (I know this to be a certainty in games 3 through 5, but my exposure to and memory of the first two games is limited, so I'll leave room for the potential that this assertion may be incorrect.) This allowed the protagonist, in proper Shaper fashion, to stay relatively safe while he sent his creations to die in droves, provided you had enough essence pods. You lost the ability to offer supporting magic and healing, which meant you lost a lot more of your creations, but again, that fits the lore. Bottom line, I felt like a Shaper with that play style. (This play style notably fits the unstable/exploding creations, and it seems to me like Jeff was trying to make them more viable in the remake anyway.)

 

Yes, I know you can sort of accomplish this same effect if you stay in combat mode the entire time. But it is wildly monotonous to do so.

 

So I'm wondering why this mechanic was removed. (Or was it? I'd check that out for myself, but I don't have a computer that can run the original first two games anymore.) I considered the idea that Jeff figured this was a cheap play style. Maybe it is. But there are ways to counteract that (many of which were applied in the original games): zones that trap you inside an area; zones that respawn enemies, especially from various locations; zones that have to be completed in one run; enemies who were programmed to hunt your protagonist. And even if it is a cheap play style, some of us enjoy playing cheap. When I play Skyrim, I enchant my gear down to 0% spell cost. That's cheap, and I love it. If you don't like it, don't play that way.

 

My argument is this:

1. The ability to control your creations over a distance within the same map is lore appropriate.

2. It's a useful but not game-breaking mechanic.

3. It would be hilariously easy to (re)apply to Geneforge 2 and beyond.

 

Anyway, thanks for the read. Anyone else on board with the desire to send your creations off to die while you sip tea?

 

(And while I'm whining, my pettiest complaint of all: can we select our sprite color at character selection again?)

[Randomizer]

Experienced Shapers could send their creations farther and have more of them under their control as mentioned in GF3 in the Shaper camp on the third island. As a new, inexperienced Shaper, you  lack this level of control.

 

Some of the reasons for no longer sitting in the zone entry and sending you creations out on their own:

 

Exploit where the creations could be sent out to detonate mines from safety. This got changed in later games to make the creations not trigger the mines.

 

Exploit where you could send a creation over to  merchants goods and not them without triggering the theft that would happen if you were there.

 

I don't know if Jeff did it because of Delicious Vlish's play through for GF5 where he created claw bug hordes without the two points of intelligence. He would send them out to kill everything in his path while he stayed behind in safety to watch.. Once the zone was cleared he would heal the survivors and loot.

 

Jeff didn't like an exploit I tried in the Geneforge - Mutagen remake in the Ascended Lab. Using unstable thanes that would leap to target. Even if they didn't hit, they could explode to kill or severely damage the foes. Enough essence pods and you could repeat from safety until the route was cleared. Back during early beta testing you could still leave combat to make new creations, but that got fixed as too close to shaping in combat.

[alhoon]

Ah, shaping in combat. Something OTHER people do, but we can't. 

 

I don't think it is a "disconnect that leads to immersion breaking" between lore and rules for GF:M. Not really. If anything with the control thing, it seems closer to the lore where you couldn't control powerful creations and more creations were a strain. 

In the Lore, shaping takes a bit of time. Hoge in GF3 uses things that hold creations (similar with mines that make creations) to combat-shape. The general something in GF4 that spews a Wingbolt probably has something like that, or he's just much faster than you are. Ghaldring et co are Geneforged. So... I don't find that an issue. 

Not being able to send your creations away... you can in combat mode. 

 

 

Now, is there a disconnect with that #####le bragging Shaper in GF5 that tells you "I remote control 41 Creations from a mile away"? Yes.
I honestly don't even believe that pompous show-off. For starters, Alwan breaks with the tradition to make big reserves of linked Minds to control a few dozen creations. The "An experienced Shaper could do x3 what a bunch of specifically made Minds could do" doesn't hold water. We have never seen a single Shaper in a tiny corner of a room with 40 creations controlled in the same dungeon. Moseh, Shaftoe and Elaiza in GF4 are connected with a bunch of nasty stuff to be able to do that. 

Conclusion: The bragging Shaper lies! Controlling 41 creations mostly at the same time from a distance by rotating quickly what he controls. Pffffffft. Riiight. Not even GHALDRING can do that. In the big battle if you go for the rebels in GF5, he controls like 10-12 creations. 

You may ask "What about Akhari Blaze in GF4 that controls a hundred Unbound?" He doesn't control 100 Unbound. He controls a single Unbound if he senses the Unbound is about to get out of the placid state and go on a rampage. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by alhoon

[Genernumlover]

It also depends on what he was controlling. If the majority were creations that didn't have much capacity for thought, worms, crawlers, or turrets, with a couple of advanced creations as the muscle, it'd be theoretically possible for him to control a lot of them. The wimp of Harmony Isle was able to control quite a few creatures in spite of him being inept. Also, the player character can control a squad of Eyebeasts or Drakons in later games, so controlling a bunch of nearly mindless creatures should be possible.

 

Like JDubkins, I also noticed that the option to maneuver and subdivide your party was gone. That was irritating, especially if you had a party of mixed creations. I'd like that ability to return. And the ability to once again change our character's sprite color would be nice, as he requested.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Genernumlover

[alhoon]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:05 PM, Genernumlover said:

It also depends on what he was controlling. If the majority were creations that didn't have much capacity for thought, worms, crawlers, or turrets, with a couple of advanced creations as the muscle, it'd be theoretically possible for him to control a lot of them. The wimp of Harmony Isle was able to control quite a few creatures in spite of him being inept. Also, the player character can control a squad of Eyebeasts or Drakons in later games, so controlling a bunch of nearly mindless creatures should be possible.

 

Yeah, he was controlling a bunch of Battle Alphas-Betas, Tralls, Kyshaaks etc. Not a single fyora. "They are eaten quickly over there!" another Shaper said. The Shaper (yes, Shaper) that teaches you, a geneforge freak of suspect loyalties, to make Drayks. And tells you to make sure to absorb them after done with them. 
Reminder: That shaper is in the same castle as a loyal mage that fights for the cause and all for years and she is STILL not allowed to learn more powerfull spells despite the castle she defends having a hole in the wall because she's not considered responsible enough. Unlike that Shaper that teaches people about Drayks if they ask politely and bring her a couple of forgotten notes. That is a responsible spellcaster that is entrusted with the most serious of Shaper lore. Not just Shaping, but Shaping of forbidden creations. 

 

As for the wimp of Harmony, he has perhaps 10 creations under his control and not a mile away from what I recall. When you press him on that he goes "Come on man, don't be like everyone else, you know we have limitations. If I go over my limit, I would be adding rogues not adding defenders." 
He does summon a couple of Ghaalks if you attack him, I think, so ... 12 perhaps? And I doubt he actually controls all of them. He could have the alphas patrol outside with verbal commands and take control if needed. 

 

By the time the player is able to control 8 drakons and eyebeasts, he or she would be level 40 or something else the essence is not there. So I don't think that should count... But perhaps, if the player at level 40 can control that many, he or she could control say 20 simple creations.  Perhaps double that with the weird "temporary control" trick. 
So, there you have it. The player, at level 35+, may be able to control 30-40 low-tier creations with much more experience in creation control. Not remote control 40 mid-to-high tier ones, and not a run-of-the-mill Shaper.  

 

"Like JDubkins, I also noticed that the option to maneuver and subdivide your party was gone. That was irritating, especially if you had a party of mixed creations. I'd like that ability to return. And the ability to once again change our character's sprite color would be nice, as he requested." 
Yeah, I also didn't like that, but it is theoretically possible in combat mode. I know I do it to place my creations where I want before I start the actual combat.

 

 

 

Something I remembered: 
In the very last fight against Ghaldring in GF5, you can take control of 6-8 more creations I think. Not for a long time and imperfect control. But you do reach 15 creations, and serious ones. 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by alhoon

[ultra112]

Oh yeah, I remember it too; the pack of Wingbolts and Kyshakks