Too much randomness in combat?

[Eldiran]

Hey guys. I hate to appear out of nowhere to complain, but there's something about Escape from the Pit I have to gripe about.

 

I'm about 30 hours in and greatly enjoying the game. However, the more I play, the more one big problem stands out to me. Whether I win or lose any given (level-appropriate or higher) battle is extremely random.

 

To start, with any attack there is a random chance to do a random amount of damage. Status effects are randomly inflicted by my spells and attacks, and then they may or may not affect the enemy (i.e. slow, ensnared, etc). I randomly gain entire extra attacks from Haste. Also, random critical hits.

 

The enemy AI chooses random targets, and if they focus fire, I die.

 

The worst part comes when the enemy possesses godlike abilities and spells (such as with any given caster or slime). For example, Draining Slimes can either attack 1 character for ~20 damage + acid or deal ~70 damage + acid to my entire party. Enemy casters either twiddle their thumbs summoning rats or wipe my party with lightning storms and poison rain.

 

Whether I win or lose is almost entirely random.

 

Is anyone else noticing this? Is anyone else extremely bothered by it? I just had to get it off my chest and complain. I still love the game, but I may not continue playing because of this.

 

Also, does anyone have any hope that it is something that can be fixed? I am using Avernum Remix, which is great, but I don't know if there's any way to fix this short of editing every enemy and item in the game.

 

Thanks for reading.

[BMA]

You don't aim using your weapons and spells; you just select an attack and then click on the enemies. It makes no difference whether you clicked on the head, or on the tail.

 

You can't always hit, and you can't always miss, so it's usually somewhere in between. So I guess there has to be some sort of formula in turn-based RPGs which decides whether you 'hit' the enemy or not.

[Aoslare]

Hi Eldiran!

 

If you would prefer less randomness, you may want to play without the Remix. One of the things it adds is randomness -- spears and bows in particular have two very different damage ranges at 50-50 odds, so instead of the fairly narrow and predictable damage range you'll get with any weapon in the original, you get two big spikes.

 

Other than that, I find that A:EFTP (and other modern Spiderweb RPGs) have rather less randomness than most CRPGs do.

 

There are definitely one or two fights where what the enemy does can make a big difference in how easy it is to survive. But I found the vast majority of the game to be less random than that.

[Eldiran]

@BMA: true, and I don't take issue with that. I accept a certain degree of randomness. However, when the RNG can either hand me a flawless victory or a total defeat against the same foes depending on how merciful the AI is, it's a bit too much to take.

 

@House of S: thanks, hi! You're right, the Remix does randomize weapons quite a bit. Even though I complained about them above (to emphasize the degree to which the combat system is random), I don't usually have much trouble with physical attacks. My main gripe is with enemy casters or monsters with abilities.

 

If any two enemies use their attack spell against me it's often an instant total party kill. Even just one caster using his attack spell two turns in a row is devastating (particularly because most of these spells also inflict a damage over time status effect of some sort). I've experienced this with enemy shamans, mages, chieftains (poison rain is quite painful), and lately, I've been getting flattened by slimes.

 

If I could fix this through some sort of modding, it would probably be by reducing the potency of area attacks. It's quite crazy how often the enemies have party-wide spells that are two to three times more powerful than their single target attacks.

[Aoslare]

The remix actually does slightly reduce the potency of many area attacks, both for your party and the enemy. It is not a huge reduction, though.

 

That particular weakness may be an indication that you should look for spells and abilities to counter it: Hardiness for everyone, Resistance where easily available, and make sure you cast Protection (pretty much always) and Cloak of the Elements.

[Eldiran]

That's a good suggestion. I think I'll try some more defensive builds and give it another go. Still bothers me conceptually, but doesn't seem like there's anything else to be done about it.

[TheMike]

Try spacing your party out, I had massive problems against enemy casters and those stupid slimes(I HATE the ones that spawn unstable slimes) until I figured out the range of most of their aoe spells and positioned my party accordingly.

 

Also get Return to Life as soon as you can for your priest(s). You can use it multiple times per battle and it makes death nothing more than a slap on the wrist. Combined with energy potions you could literally have everyone but a single priest die several times within the space of the same battle and still end said battle with everyone at alive and at full hp.

[Eldiran]

Good point Mike. Unfortunately many problem encounters have been in tight spaces where contributing to the encounter means being within AoE range. I should try to be more clever about defensive placement and cover though.

 

I'll see if I can get Return Life too; it would be incredibly nice to have but I'm not sure how/where to get it yet.

[Randomizer]

You buy Return Life from a group west of the river from the Aranea. Just go up river from Fort Dranlon. Also from some others later in the game when you are stronger.

[Kestral]

1.) I find that positioning my party to avoid AOEs hitting everyone can often be quite effective. I'll often send my tank to attract enemies and then retreat to a choke point.

Exception is when encountering a group outside, but even then it can still help to have the tank far enough ahead of the party that AOEs targeting him will not hit anyone else.

For bosses, I have the tank skirt to one side when moving up to engage on turn one so that cone attacks against him will not hit the rest of the party.

(this assumes you have a tank who is tough enough to take all the hits any only needs to be healed up to full once a turn)

 

2.) Single target healing doesn't seem to require line of sight/effect to the target, and has a pretty long range; so a priest has an especially easy time staying out of trouble (and then running out of the dungeon back to town if the rest of the party bites it...if you managed to kill even one enemy before dying, then you can come back and have an easier time on the 2nd go).

 

3.) If my tank gets unlucky and is killed, Return Life is a great spell and can really save the day, though the mana cost is really high, so it usually means a trip back to town afterward.

 

4.) If my tank gets killed *without* needing to be really unlucky? Run! =P

[Earth]

there are also alot return life scrolls although those are crappy and retuen dead char to life with only fraction of health.

[Eldiran]

Thanks Randomizer, I'll check that out.

 

Great advice Kestral! And thanks for the help, everyone. I tried respeccing (via the editor) my fighters with much more endurance, hardiness, and parry, and I've stopped retrying every time a single party member dies (instead I flee with my healer). Now the game is fun and manageable again.

 

I still object to the random AI, but at least now bad luck doesn't mean game over.

[juckto]

You know what would be challenging? If getting the whole party bar the priest-coward wasn't such a slap on the wrist, walk back to town and try again, nonissue.

 

For instance, it could be that your dead characters are replaced with random characters, to represent you hiring/recruiting new adventurers. I guess it would have to be optional, so people can keep their old (dead) chars in the party list. Maybe make it that if you walk into an inn you can recruit.

 

Anyway, i guess im saying i think the "return life at every town gate" makes it a bit easy.

[Randomizer]

Avernum 1 to 3 allowed you to rest existing characters in rooms and recruit certain NPCs to fill the slots.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: juckto

You know what would be challenging? If getting the whole party bar the priest-coward wasn't such a slap on the wrist, walk back to town and try again, nonissue.

For instance, it could be that your dead characters are replaced with random characters, to represent you hiring/recruiting new adventurers. I guess it would have to be optional, so people can keep their old (dead) chars in the party list. Maybe make it that if you walk into an inn you can recruit.

Anyway, i guess im saying i think the "return life at every town gate" makes it a bit easy.

There's a balancing act here. Make the penalty for death too harsh and players will just reload a saved game whenever a character dies, like they did in earlier games when death was more of an inconvenience.

[BMA]

Originally Posted By: juckto

For instance, it could be that your dead characters are replaced with random characters, to represent you hiring/recruiting new adventurers.

I develop a bond with the characters I start out with. It's hard to remove one of them and create/recruit someone else.

Though not so with creations.

[Aoslare]

When one of my characters dies, I flee before the rest of them are killed, rest up, cast some protective spells, sprint to the spot where they died and pray that their bones landed near the top of their equipment so that nobody else dies while I'm searching for the bones. Then I go all the way back to the start of the game and literally throw their bones onto the VI altar. Then they are back, minus a few stat points. Ugh.

[Øther]

When I first got and started playing AEFTP, there were 2 main problems I was having in the beginning. This was before it was toned down, so I have no idea how it is now. THe first was that I was having a lot of trouble landing my hits, because at best I seemed to have a 50% hit chance. THat was annoying, but bearable. The other thing I had problems with was monsters with abilities. I really only got stuck for a while once I ran into the SLiths, so the monsters with abilities that I'm thinking of would be the mages and shamans. Whenever I would battle one of those large groups of them that were all over the place, there was only one thing i could do, or else I would die horribly. Spam daze to keep as many monsters as I could in line, and try to focus down the casters. At that point, I hated pretty much everything they could do to me, but at that time in the game, their summons were especially bad. Several times, I have been able to clear out all the mages/shamans, deal with the slith warriors, and kill all of the regular sliths, just to be slaughtered by one summon that a mage was able to get in before dieing. Those monsters had a nasty habit of having very strong AoE that I could just not heal through. It took me a lot of effort then to deal with the slith, but after that, I honestly did't have that many problems with these kinds of monsters. THey were still a pain and occasionally killed me, but they just seemed a lot easier to deal with after the beginning. I don't know how the beginning of the game is like now, a lot easier I have seen people say, so I will have to make a new game and see for myself. However, other than focusing down these enemies, I have not seen a great method of dealing with them or keeping them from killing everybody. There is indeed a large degree of randomness to their attacks.

[blackwight]

On many occasions I thought it was too random. Aside from the movements of wandering monsters, I think there is no need for randoms at all.

[Eldiran]

@Other: That matches my experience exactly. Using everyone's suggestions I managed to tough it out, but there's definitely a level range in AEFTP where you have to face off against way powerful casters that can devastate you based on chance. Thankfully I've gotten past that and now my party can weather their attacks.

 

@blackwight: Agreed, I don't think the extra randomness adds anything. I always prefer reliable abilities to random ones.

[Death Knight]

One of the things that is not random but still a little weird is turn order. Since my tank with no quick action/and or dexterity is my 1st party member, he goes first if you toggle turn acts in roster order. Whats weird about this is that sometimes he goes first and before my 2nd fighter can go (who happens to have 9 quick action) a few of the enemy will go. I dont know what is better roster order or who's ever quicker.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

One of the things that is not random but still a little weird is turn order. Since my tank with no quick action/and or dexterity is my 1st party member, he goes first if you toggle turn acts in roster order. Whats weird about this is that sometimes he goes first and before my 2nd fighter can go (who happens to have 9 quick action) a few of the enemy will go. I dont know what is better roster order or who's ever quicker.

Going in order of speed will increase the chance of acting before enemies at the start of the fight, but sticking to roster order allows you greater control over the relative turn order of your party members, which can have some advantages under specific circumstances.