Post Avernum EFTP Thoughts

[Death Knight]

I must say that i had good feelings when i first started playing the game. But later on the same thing that bothered me in the past, did so again making the game unplayable-The battle disciplines.

 

It might sound odd that something like that can make it so unapproachable but whatever. Here's why-Avernum 1-3 and even Avernum 4 are all fun to play because the role is known when you make the character. If you want to make a glass-cannon rogue character in avernum 4, you can give him quick action and anatomy and that would make your stereotypical rogue. The same can be true with avernum 1-3, give your char a spear/halberd and high endurance along with resistance in boa, and you have a mage-killer.

 

The problem i have with avernum 5, 6 and this game is that the roles don't exist. You can't make a stereotypical character with battle disciplines when everyone gets the same ones regardless-High dex should give you access to disciplines that warrior/tanks can't get access to. Its unfortunate but i don't get that feeling with the new title or the others mentioned.

 

Now don't get me wrong, avernum escape from the pit and the others are still great games, i just don't like how the roles work with that particular system. If it was done the way i would like (which it won't because thats not how the game works), it would be archers get different battle disciplines than warriors just as rogues (warriors with high dex) get different from tanks. That way the roles would make sense. Like avadon for example.

 

This is not a hate rant, this is just something i noticed. If anything, i find that it makes avernum original 1-3+nethergate+boa much much more playable. (Oh and don't forget a4).

[Lilith]

Str-based characters have access to Dex-based battle disciplines and vice versa, but they can't use them very effectively at all. Roles are definitely preserved -- if anything, I found them a little too restrictive.

[Death Knight]

No thats not really what I'm saying. The battle disciplines don't base on anything. You'd think that weakness curse would only be available to rogue fighters due to high dex, or brute characters getting mighty blow while rangers get the first ranged attack and the throwing masters get the higher version. None of that exists. I don't know. When i play avadon i can play a blade master or shadow walker and there's a role and each character is different. With the battle disciplines, none of that exists.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Death Knight: I think you're still missing Lilith's point here. Yes, you can get flawless/blinding shot without ever putting points into missile weapons or dexterity, but you will never use it. Or rather, you'll use it once, see that its hit chance and damage are abysmal, and never use it again. If anything, the problem here is that newer players are likely to waste time using battle disciplines that do nothing because of their builds.

[Death Knight]

i understand what you are saying, but for me it makes it unplayable. I doubt that it will change but hey, i cant like all of jeffs games ya kno? I still find avernum 1-3, boa and nethergate to be awesome and avadon is great. All i ask from jeff is that whatever he does, PLEASE dont make any geneforge remakes with battle disciplines. That would really be the worst that could happen.

[Slawbug]

*blinks*

 

An extra feature makes it unplayable? Can't you just ignore battle disciplines entirely, then?

 

I mean, I get that we all have our pet peeves, but you can literally just never press the battle disciplines button and this one will be irrelevant.

[Superba]

I agree with Death knight when he talks about playing Avadon just before this new game, in fact I made a mess with EFTP battle disciplines with my first playthrough; I lost many points rising disciplines "in parallel" which had no effect on a character. It is however question of understanding how things work with Avernum, a difficulty that can be overcomed, with knowledge one can find in this forum threads. Once you understood the peculiarities there's no more a problem.

[Kreador]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

*blinks*

An extra feature makes it unplayable? Can't you just ignore battle disciplines entirely, then?

I mean, I get that we all have our pet peeves, but you can literally just never press the battle disciplines button and this one will be irrelevant.

I agree that his complaint sounds a bit like saying you can't drive a car because it has an optional heated driver's seat.

That said, I think it would be more logical if there were two lines of battle disciplines, one enabled based on your ranged combat level and one by you melee combat level.

[Erebus the Black]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

*blinks*

An extra feature makes it unplayable? Can't you just ignore battle disciplines entirely, then?

I mean, I get that we all have our pet peeves, but you can literally just never press the battle disciplines button and this one will be irrelevant.

I'm not taking sides here ,BUT,
what you seem to be missing from his point is that monsters also use battle disciplines, so just ignoring them on the player's end doesn't solve the playability problem from his point of view.
For me it's the ritual of the beast which really toughens the game (especially for smaller groups).

[Slawbug]

He didn't say anything about monsters / NPCs. I also don't remember running into any that used out-of-theme battle disciplines (e.g., warriors using an archery discipline), which he identified as his specific complaint about battle disciplines.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Erasmus: What Slarty said. Also, is Ritual of the Beast even in this game, or a battle discipline? I recall it in A5 and 6, but it was a spell that shaman enemies used, not a battle discipline. And I don't think I ever saw it in AEftP.

[Randomizer]

Monster's still get things that we don't get. They got some aspects of Ritual of the Beast, but usually only the boss monster.

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

*blinks*

An extra feature makes it unplayable? Can't you just ignore battle disciplines entirely, then?

I mean, I get that we all have our pet peeves, but you can literally just never press the battle disciplines button and this one will be irrelevant.

I don't want to sound evil, but yes that one feature makes things such as role-playing classes, unplayable in these games. In avernum 4, you have high dex, good sword ability, and very high quick action for extra attacks, thats your rogue. You wield spears, have high endurance, strength and parry-a tank. etc. etc. With avernum 5 that doesn't exist, nor does it in 6 and in A 1Remake. The battle disciplines make it impossible to role-play characters in these games for me. I can't ignore them because they are the biggest part of the game. I like the game and its a good game but that one feature i detest.

I cannot and will not play avernum 5-6, and Avernum 1-3 (plus nether gate and blades of avernum remakes if they have it) because that feature i just can't get into. It is hard to say but once i played avadon i got used to the norm being that way.

In avadon, the shadow walker (rogue) is unique, as is the blade master and other classes for roleplaying reasons. In the games i listed, i don't get the same roleplaying feeling as a spear user can backstab with no dex requirements, wield a throwing weapon, etc. it goes on. In avadon blade masters get bows, they can't wield other ranged weapons. Shamans get javelins. Roleplaying is much easier to do in those cases. I can role-play in avernum 1-4, boa and nether gate resurrection for that matter. I already have the original games listed other than 2 and 3 which i plan to purchase along with nether gate resurrection. All those games i can get into roleplaying wise.

[Sudanna]

How is it impossible to role-play? I mean, a big hulking dude with a battleaxe could try to backstab someone or do a flip or what have you, he would just suck at it, which is what the battle disciplines show happening. A rogue could try to do a shield bash or something, he would just suck.

 

Your complaint seems very silly to me.

[Slawbug]

EDIT:

 

Wait. So your complaint actually has nothing to do with battle disciplines. Your complaint is more general: you prefer clearly delineated character classes to the "make-your-own-character" style that Avernum uses?

 

Actually, I do too. But you can still mold the PCs into character classes if you want. I understand why you dislike this; what I don't get is the leap from "dislike" to "the game is ruined"

[Death Knight]

Eschalon book 2 for example. Each weapon is unique as is the skill each one has. Its about having each character being unique. Why would i want to play a game with 2 fighters (each with the same strategies/moves) with the only unique characters being the mages and priests. If i play a game like temple of elemental evil, and i play a rogue, i have moves that designate that character. In any of the games with those moves, each character uses the same move set. There are no special abilities to said character, no character type.

 

With the original games, that problem isn't present.

[Randomizer]

Jeff always favors a classless player character that can do almost the same things whatever the starting point. Start with pregenerated characters in Avernum and they could look the same at the end.

 

Avadon was the first time that a a fighter could never go completely over to being a mage except by using scarabs and that was limited. Geneforge allowed making any class into another even though it would be less efficient.

[Erebus the Black]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

I don't ... roleplaying wise.

Well, I stand corrected.

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

...

Originally Posted By: Othar Trygvassen: Gentleman

...

Serves me right for trying to be a mitigator. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: Erasmus

Serves me right for trying to be a mitigator. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

That's what happens when you stand in the middle - you get belted from both sides .


I agree with DK's Eschalon comparison in terms of the ability to be totally specific in character build. My party in EFTP works out - on the whole - pretty samish to every other Avernum I've played. Doesn't make the game unplayable for me tho'.

[chimp]

I'd argue that the current skills system provides _more_ support for role-playing. The automatic point assignments and the skills trees give you a safety net, in terms of viability, and let you create pretty much what you want (magic and mental resistance are expensive, if you're not using magic, but then you'd expect a magic-free party to be especially vulnerable, wouldn't you? - just makes it hard to stay alive, surrounded by Hawthorne's golems...).

 

Exile/Avernum has always appealed to me precisely because of the fun you can have, creating extreme and unusual characters (and watching them die, repeatedly). After playing Avadon, I can kind of understand Death Knight's enthusiasm for pre-defined characters but, as others have said, there's nothing stopping you from creating them in Avernum. It's just that the onus is on the player to avoid pressing certain buttons, rather than those buttons being hidden from the player by the software.

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: waterplant

I agree with DK's Eschalon comparison in terms of the ability to be totally specific in character build. My party in EFTP works out - on the whole - pretty samish to every other Avernum I've played. Doesn't make the game unplayable for me tho'.

I'm not going to lie, i can get into games very easily, but also, i can get out of games for extremely rare reasons just as easily. Im just picky that way when it comes to games. For me, im just glad that jeff's making games like these, whether i like all of them or not. I bought the game anyway, so jeff should be happy as i support any indie that is awesome. These are probably the only games i dont like that he makes so i would say jeff's got a pretty darn good track record.

[Kreador]

Originally Posted By: waterplant

Originally Posted By: Erasmus

Serves me right for trying to be a mitigator. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

That's what happens when you stand in the middle - you get belted from both sides .


I agree with DK's Eschalon comparison in terms of the ability to be totally specific in character build. My party in EFTP works out - on the whole - pretty samish to every other Avernum I've played. Doesn't make the game unplayable for me tho'.

They only turn out samish if you continue to use just the default four characters. You can change things around and try all sorts of things, including 1, 2, 3, or 4 custom designed characters.

[Colonel Haste]

My take is that AEFTP is more close to Avadon in terms of creating true classes than anything else in the Avernum or Geneforge series. The reason is that you don't have to pay increasingly more skill points to improve skills as you go along. In Avernum games I typically found myself playing with two fighter mages and two figher priests because as the game went along I didn't want to, say, pay two levels worth of skill points to improve my tank's Blademaster by one point. Instead I'd put the points towards spell-casting.

 

Here that just doesn't work very well since I am not allocating Intelligence to my fighters, which limits their ability to multi-task. So I've ended up with characters that have Avadon type classes.