Avadon review from non-hardcore player (spoilers)

[madrigan]

I finished the game yesterday. It was shorter than I expected, but I think that to some extent Jeff was experimenting with this game, and expanding the plot just for its own sake was probably not on his agenda. I was surprised that I didn't get to visit Tawon or the Corruption, though.

 

I have mentioned several times on these forums how bad I am at games. I have never been able to finish Geneforge 4 or 5 without cheating. Actually I couldn't even finish G5 while cheating. I also could not beat Neverwinter Nights without cheating. I am a terrible min-maxer and I'm devoted to role-playing, so if I happen to choose a character concept that doesn't fit the system, then my character just ends up being inept.

 

So my first worry about Avadon was that it would be too hard, that I would start to get slaughtered just partway into the game -- which is what happened to me in Eschalon, for example -- or that I would get nearly to the end and then be unable to win the final conflict. Fortunately, the game is not too hard for me. I played on Casual, and between that and the avoidance of a few tougher battles (no Zethyrine, no Beloch, no Redbeard) I think I only needed three or four resurrection scrolls for the whole game.

 

My main character was a Shadowalker, and except for one brief excursion with Nathalie I used Sevilin and Jenell as my companions exclusively. I did their character quests, but not the other two. This is entirely viable if you play on Casual and don't intend to fight Redbeard. I stayed generally loyal to Avadon for most of the game and the ending was fairly satisfying with that approach.

 

 

Things I liked:

 

1) Many people on the forum here have mentioned that it's hard to create a useless character. I think this is true. I did miss the detailed character building of the Avernum games, but as I said I like the fact that I didn't end up spending thirty hours before realizing I would never be able to finish.

 

2) As always I enjoy the moral quandaries presented by the game. I had been worried that it would be impossible to go through the game without being a total scumbag, but this really wasn't the case. It is impossible to go through the entire game without making any difficult choices. In Avernum 4 & 6, for example, most of the choices are pretty obvious. There's the evil choice and the good choice. In Avadon, you have to choose in which way you want to be impure. Although nearly every NPC in the game says otherwise, the arguments that Redbeard makes for Avadon's importance and legitimacy are quite coherent. At the same time, the ethical position of, say, Jenell is also coherent and non-evil. It's just different from Redbeard's.

 

3) The sound and visuals are way better than any other Spiderweb game. The sound the living dead, or lost soul, or whatever they're called, make in the Great Hall at Vebeaux is terrific and scary. The fire and lightning animations are great. The sound of the arrow flurry is right on, about as realistic as one could expect.

 

4)The chase after you are framed at Vebeaux is very good. Not as good as the chase from the Anama lands to the Azure Gallery, but good, and the real-time movement added a certain urgency to one's actions.

 

5) Arrows showing off-screen enemies. Useful and realistic, as I assume my character has hearing and peripheral vision.

 

6) Logical castle layouts. Avadon, Vebeaux, and Oghrym Tor are laid out in a way that a castle might actually be laid out. It seems that way to this non-architect, anyway. Avadon has a centrally located mess hall, Vebeaux has double walls, and Oghrym Tor is appears to be designed specifically so the master of the castle can escape attackers. The Darkside Fortress in A5 was like this also, while The Castle in A4 & 6 was full of dead ends and seemed designed to trap the inhabitants.

 

 

Things I did not like:

 

1) This is minor, but when an arrow misses my character it makes the same noise as when it hits me. This is a bit disorienting.

 

2) Several boring fights. The first time I felt like I was just waiting for the fight to end was in the Beraza Pits fighting the drake. "Ah-hah, you appear to have won, but I will heal your enemy completely! And again!" There wasn't really much to do but gang up on one of the possessed soldiers and wait for the drake to get bored. Also the fight against the court wizard in Vebeaux. She kept teleporting me away and summoning undead, but the undead weren't much offensively, so I started ignoring them and just used missile attacks on the main target. It seems like a battle where the key is to ignore your enemy's primary tactic is not well-designed. Finally, the battle against the Duke was so dull that I reloaded and went out of character just to avoid it. None of my attacks were doing much to him, and the three demons were doing a lot of damage to Jenell, so I just decided to let him go so I could get on with the plot.

 

3) Repeated battles against identical inferior enemies. This mainly bothered me in Vebeaux, while I was running around trying to find the secret tunnel. I understand that there would probably be roving squadrons in a castle that had been infiltrated by a group of alleged murderers, but in game terms it just wasted time and vitality.

 

4) Summoned pets were all really weak. I never got to the salamander, but the wolf and the hellhound were not formidable at all. Nonetheless I had to spend points on that skill in order to get skills I actually wanted. Although the wand of major aid, I think that's the name, summoned much stronger allies.

 

 

Those are all the issues that come to mind. I thought it might be useful to see what someone who had to look up "roguelike" to see what it meant thought of the game. Overall it was enjoyable and only occasionally maddening, and I will be perfectly happy to buy Avadon 2 next year.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

5) Arrows showing off-screen enemies. Useful and realistic, as I assume my character has hearing and peripheral vision.

Jeff added this to help players with smaller screens locate that irritating enemy just out of sight that keeps you from leaving fight mode. At least now you know which way to go to get him or the opposite way to heal up.

Quote:

2) Several boring fights. The first time I felt like I was just waiting for the fight to end was in the Beraza Pits fighting the drake. "Ah-hah, you appear to have won, but I will heal your enemy completely! And again!" There wasn't really much to do but gang up on one of the possessed soldiers and wait for the drake to get bored. Also the fight against the court wizard in Vebeaux. She kept teleporting me away and summoning undead, but the undead weren't much offensively, so I started ignoring them and just used missile attacks on the main target. It seems like a battle where the key is to ignore your enemy's primary tactic is not well-designed. Finally, the battle against the Duke was so dull that I reloaded and went out of character just to avoid it. None of my attacks were doing much to him, and the three demons were doing a lot of damage to Jenell, so I just decided to let him go so I could get on with the plot.

Some fights are easier depending upon your party. Duke Gryfym is easier if you substitute a sorceress that won't take that much damage. Questa wasn't hard for me since I did more damage per round and could clear the distracting undead within two rounds. The final Beraza Pit fight is mostly, why won't they die and I hate Jeff for scripting this mess.

Quote:

3) Repeated battles against identical inferior enemies. This mainly bothered me in Vebeaux, while I was running around trying to find the secret tunnel. I understand that there would probably be roving squadrons in a castle that had been infiltrated by a group of alleged murderers, but in game terms it just wasted time and vitality.

These fights are to push you along a path and not stick around and fight.

Quote:

4) Summoned pets were all really weak. I never got to the salamander, but the wolf and the hellhound were not formidable at all. Nonetheless I had to spend points on that skill in order to get skills I actually wanted. Although the wand of major aid, I think that's the name, summoned much stronger allies.

I never liked the shaman's pets and found they were most damaging with blessing of thorns to spineshield them. Let the monster impale themselves and just keep healing the pets.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

4) Summoned pets were all really weak. I never got to the salamander, but the wolf and the hellhound were not formidable at all. Nonetheless I had to spend points on that skill in order to get skills I actually wanted. Although the wand of major aid, I think that's the name, summoned much stronger allies.

I'm not sure, but pet strength might be affected by difficulty level. That was true of summon spells in Avernum 4-6, anyway. I find the Hell Hound quite useful on Torment: he soaks up some damage (incredibly important at that difficulty setting), deals some via Spine Shield, gets two shots of flame breath which are great against large mobs, and helps to set up shadowwalker backstab damage. I'm not sure the salamander/drake are worth the cost in skill points for the skill, but one pet at least is useful. None of his individual effects are that amazing, but it you add them all together, he's quite a bit better than most offensive abilities.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

gets two shots of flame breath which are great against large mobs

This is interesting because I'm pretty sure my Hellhounds on Casual didn't have flame breath. Unless I just don't know how to use it.

[jlsgaladriel]

Hmm, on hard they certainly have a cone of fire. (I don't think that varies according to difficulty?) But it takes 4 turns to recover, and beasties can't carry potions of recovery, so more than one a turn should be impossible.

 

They do make good helpers for shadowwalkers backstabs, though.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

gets two shots of flame breath which are great against large mobs

This is interesting because I'm pretty sure my Hellhounds on Casual didn't have flame breath. Unless I just don't know how to use it.

You have to use "a" to bring up the ability screen. Some summoned creatures have decent abilities, but on torment level they can't hit.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

You have to use "a" to bring up the ability screen. Some summoned creatures have decent abilities, but on torment level they can't hit.

Oh hell. I didn't know there was an "a" screen. Not for creatures, anyway.

[Aoslare]

Not more than one a turn. Two altogether, over the time they are around. Okay, sometimes they die first, but my hellhounds tend to stick around just long enough for a second shot.

[tehpineapple]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

1) Many people on the forum here have mentioned that it's hard to create a useless character. I think this is true. I did miss the detailed character building of the Avernum games, but as I said I like the fact that I didn't end up spending thirty hours before realizing I would never be able to finish.

I continue to find it bizarre that people (including Jeff) see this as a good thing. It kills the replay value of the game. to death. If this is how the rest of the series goes, I don't see how you could ever play an Avadon game more than twice, unless you enjoy repetitive boredom.

[A less presumptuous name.]

There is no replay value if people give up on their first play through, uninstall the game, and throw spiderweb out the door. To replay a game, one must be able to play the game.

[Randomizer]

Basilisk Games have lots of players complaining that part way through Eschalon they find that their character builds become unplayable because they made them too general.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I found pets pretty useful. Not overpowered, but worthwhile throughout the game on hard. They suffered a bit toward the end, but the drake was still good for soaking damage, and its fire breath was very useful against summoners because of the short cooldown time. Three (I think it was three, anyway) reasonably powerful cone attacks over the duration of one summon adds a lot of damage when one faces large numbers of minions.

[othersean]

Originally Posted By: Master1

There is no replay value if people give up on their first play through

This. I don't mind suffering a bit from a suboptimal build, but it's no fun to make reasonable-looking skill/class decisions for most of the game, only to find yourself hosed near the end and unable to finish the game. The retrainer mostly fixes this in Avadon, but I don't see how guessing the right things to pump makes a game fun.

In any case, I'll play this one at least twice for the stories: once with my current blademaster/Shima/Janelle party, and once with ?/Sevilin/Nathalie.

[othersean]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Basilisk Games have lots of players complaining that part way through Eschalon they find that their character builds become unplayable because they made them too general.

Or only a tiny way into Eschalon they found the controls utterly unusable on a trackpad. Someone apparently thought that "click and hold on a spot in some direction relative to your character" should move your character in that direction. I would probably have bought the game if the UI hadn't been completely insane.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Basilisk Games have lots of players complaining that part way through Eschalon they find that their character builds become unplayable because they made them too general.

Eschalon is an INCREDIBLY poorly balanced RPG. Stuffed full with abilities that are either easily breakable, or totally useless. Don't get me wrong, I like it a lot, and there are even things about it I prefer to SW games. However, game mechanics are definitely not one of them.

Originally Posted By: othersean

...but I don't see how guessing the right things to pump makes a game fun.

If you approach it analytically, it's not about guessing at all -- rather it's more an alternating combination of empirical research and logic puzzles.

Of course, very few people approach it like I do, so your point is probably more relevant than mine.

[VCH]

You know I don't actually like increasing stats or abilities in RPGs. In Neverwinter Nights I just click the recommended button and get on with the game. I guess I approach RPGs more like an action game, but with a good story.

 

Similarly, I like playing Magic the Gathering, but have absolutely no interest in building decks.

 

For many of you I'm sure this is complete heresy.

 

Am I alone in this?

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: VCH

Similarly, I like playing Magic the Gathering, but have absolutely no interest in building decks.

Am I alone in this?

No, I like Magic much better if each player just grabs 50 (or whatever) cards at random out of a huge box.

Oh, you meant about increasing stats in RPGs? Yeah, you're pretty much alone in that. :-)

[Aoslare]

Hmm.

 

I wonder if a good way to satisfy everyone on this account would be to include an "auto-allocate" button whenever you have stat/skill points to allocate? This allows you to put a fair amount of interesting complexity in the system for those that enjoy thinking about it, and it allows just-get-on-with-it types to, well, just get on with it.

[othersean]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

If you approach it analytically, it's not about guessing at all -- rather it's more an alternating combination of empirical research and logic puzzles.

I think I understand where you come from, and am honestly impressed by your analyses of the games. I play them casually, so I don't treat them as math puzzles.

That said, it's just plain un-fun to reach a point where a strategy that has worked well so far can't complete the game (e.g. "you need Dexterity 17 to open this door"). I don't think such obstacles should exist, and if they do, they should be blatantly hinted-at in advance.

[tehpineapple]

Blasphemers! Building decks is 90% of the fun of magic!

 

I also view character building like a puzzle, and in Avadon the puzzle is still present, but the answer is already given to you.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: tehpineapple

Blasphemers! Building decks is 90% of the fun of magic!

I also view character building like a puzzle, and in Avadon the puzzle is still present, but the answer is already given to you.

Yeah, the people at the Magic shoppe where I play say the same thing.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Hmm.

I wonder if a good way to satisfy everyone on this account would be to include an "auto-allocate" button whenever you have stat/skill points to allocate? This allows you to put a fair amount of interesting complexity in the system for those that enjoy thinking about it, and it allows just-get-on-with-it types to, well, just get on with it.

Yes. NeverWinter Nights 1 and 2 seem to do this well enough, at least for the fighter class any way.

Like I said before, I'm more interested in the story and interacting with the world than the numbers.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I generally find character-building a fun part of RPGs. The main exception is when the 'empirical research' component breaks down; e.g. in cases where abilities, builds, and characters/classes vary dramatically in utility between phases of the game. Likewise, when early build decisions are important enough that one can screw oneself over before there's enough time to get a representative sample of the game's challenges. Of course, retraining can solve most if not quite all of these problems, and for this reason I think it's a valuable addition to just about all RPGs.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: othersean

That said, it's just plain un-fun to reach a point where a strategy that has worked well so far can't complete the game (e.g. "you need Dexterity 17 to open this door"). I don't think such obstacles should exist, and if they do, they should be blatantly hinted-at in advance.

This is very true. There should always be multiple ways to solve a problem. In NN, if you couldn't pick a lock you could usually smash the door or chest. I would really enjoy the addition of object smashing to Spiderweb games.

[Cala]

I really enjoyed reading your opinions! It's nice to know there's a few kindred spirits around; I was starting to feel lonely with my silly whims and lack of rpg knowledge!

 

I also play on casual because, while I enjoy the battles, the main interest for me is the story and fun moral choices we get to make. I wondered if anyone else was crazy enough to stick to a character personality to the point where they might end up too weak from not always taking the valuable options. May have taken it a little far though. I thought Jenell seemed useful and interesting, but my stuck-up sorceress decided she would rather travel with her own personal harem (poor Shima and Sev). Not done with the game yet, though, so we'll see!

 

(For the record, I had to look up min-maxer )

 

Edit: Forgot to say, I also failed at Eschelon for the same reasons as you, hahaha.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

Originally Posted By: othersean

That said, it's just plain un-fun to reach a point where a strategy that has worked well so far can't complete the game (e.g. "you need Dexterity 17 to open this door"). I don't think such obstacles should exist, and if they do, they should be blatantly hinted-at in advance.

This is very true. There should always be multiple ways to solve a problem. In NN, if you couldn't pick a lock you could usually smash the door or chest. I would really enjoy the addition of object smashing to Spiderweb games.

Exile let you bash some doors.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

I generally find character-building a fun part of RPGs. The main exception is when the 'empirical research' component breaks down; e.g. in cases where abilities, builds, and characters/classes vary dramatically in utility between phases of the game. Likewise, when early build decisions are important enough that one can screw oneself over before there's enough time to get a representative sample of the game's challenges. Of course, retraining can solve most if not quite all of these problems, and for this reason I think it's a valuable addition to just about all RPGs.

This.

Exile let you bash any door that wasn't magically locked (or impossible to unlock).

[*i]

My only issue with bashing in Exile, the way it was implemented, it pretty much made it the default mode of removing a non-magically locked door. While lockpicking was an option, since someone was going to invest heavily in strength anyway, it made lockpicking pretty much worthless.

[jlsgaladriel]

The way Neverwinter Nights and NN2 make lockpicking viable is that while one *can* bash in chests and some doors, said bashing is likely to damage breakable items like potions and scrolls. It's not a bad solution.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: jlsgaladriel

The way Neverwinter Nights and NN2 make lockpicking viable is that while one *can* bash in chests and some doors, said bashing is likely to damage breakable items like potions and scrolls. It's not a bad solution.

In NN, I think there was also a chance you would damage your weapon.

I never played Exile so I missed out on that smashing.

[Pretty in Pink]

If I remember correctly, in Exile you could also get hurt if you failed your attempt at "bashing" the door... I kind of miss having a "sorta-kinda" alternative to opening locked doors.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: Pretty in Pink

If I remember correctly, in Exile you could also get hurt if you failed your attempt at "bashing" the door... I kind of miss having a "sorta-kinda" alternative to opening locked doors.

Yeah you could. I think even if you did open the door you took some damage.

[Gerry Quinn]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

I finished the game yesterday. It was shorter than I expected, but I think that to some extent Jeff was experimenting with this game, and expanding the plot just for its own sake was probably not on his agenda. I was surprised that I didn't get to visit Tawon or the Corruption, though.

I suspect Jeff intentionally left areas unvisited - they will no doubt be visited in later games in the series.