mini map...

[rythus]

Well, with the new screenshots I see that the minimap hasn't changed from avernum 6, and I'm wondering why.

I thought that the lack of detail of the new minimap in avernum 6 might have been due to time constraints or something, but with the new game I expected that there would have been a much better minimap.

 

Ever since avernum 4, the minimap system has been getting worse, maybe people just didn't appreciate the minimap as much as I did and so it was decided that the time spent on it wasn't very efficient. With the new minimap in avernum 4 and 5, there was significantly less detail and the entire map lost its usually vibrant colors and became rather bland, and thus, for me at at least, the gameplay felt the same. Then with 6, all the detail was scraped as well as most of the fog of war mechanic. I would say the minimap was pretty much the whole reason why I didn't really play the new avernum games after the first trilogy.

 

It seems like it will take a while for Avadon to come out, so does anyone think there might be some further work in the minimap till then? I would like to think so but I don't want to get my hopes up.

[Arronax]

So am i missing something here? What new screenshots?

[Cairo Jim]

Look in the Announcements section of the boards. I believe there are some screentshots avaible in there somewhere

[Mea Tulpa]

The screenshots are on the spiderweb website and are a few weeks old

[Skomer]

I heartily agree. I'll gladly join a campaign requesting a return to the older maps. The mini-map opening up as you travel across an area is one of the things which gives the game beauty, and a bit of detail and colour is so much more enjoyable.

[Celtic Minstrel]

Originally Posted By: Arronax

So am i missing something here? What new screenshots?

I think Rythus is just a bit behind; he's referring to the same screenshots that were put up around when the game was announced.

[rythus]

Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel

I think Rythus is just a bit behind; he's referring to the same screenshots that were put up around when the game was announced.

Yea, your right. Haven't checked the website for like a month so the screenshots were new to me

[Monroe]

The old minimaps were really, really nice. Almost too nice, though. Less detail is fine for me but I wish they would at least have explored land colored in so we can tell what we explored, rather than just have the walls. I've mentioned this often enough now, though, that I feel like a broken record.

[Mea Tulpa]

This is something that there seems to be near unanimous agreement on, but I think the map is decided. Not because it couldn't be changed, but I strongly suspect that Jeff prefers it this way, because at a glance it looks more polished and professional.

 

On the other hand, broken record suggesting did eventually lead to G4 fixing the old encumbrance system.

[Skomer]

Hoo sez it can't look polished and have a little more detail?

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Skomer

Hoo sez it can't look polished and have a little more detail?

Jeff?

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

This is something that there seems to be near unanimous agreement on, but I think the map is decided. Not because it couldn't be changed, but I strongly suspect that Jeff prefers it this way, because at a glance it looks more polished and professional.

Do you at least know whether or not he'll fix the issue with explored versus unexplored land on the minimap? I could care less what it looks like, I just want the thing to be functional.

[Mea Tulpa]

I suspect not. I don't KNOW anything.

[ThirdParty]

Jeff didn't make the current minimap the way he did out of laziness. Instead, I believe he had a number of desiderata in mind:

1. The current minimap looks professional and elegant, and avoids potentially-clashing graphics juxtapositions.

2. The current minimap stays out of the way. (Thanks to consuming minimal screen real estate, and being partially transparent.)

3. The current minimap presents the information the party needs for navigation in a minimally-confusing way. (For navigation, you need to know about obstacles and potential destinations. Anything else is noise.)

4. The current minimap avoids straining the graphics processors of older computers. (Given Jeff's engine, stacking a bunch of tiny partially-transparent graphics on top of a large, potentially-animated terrain graphic is not a good idea. So the fewer things the minimap shows, the better.)

 

-----

 

My suggestion: keep the current minimap as it is, but add a new "zoom out" button that temporarily shows a bird's eye view of the zone. It could facilitate exploring by distinguishing floors from unexplored areas. It could be large and show lots of detail, so be very pretty. It could be full-screen and non-transparent, so avoid issues of clashing graphics and cpu strain.

[Unplayable Playable Character]

That zoom out thing sounds difficult to program, an since it's not completely necessary I'm gonna take an educated guess based on Jeff's previous actions and say he won't do anything flashy like that.

 

I'm a geneforge guy, and the new map style hasn't bothered me as much, however more details in the mini-map is something that I was expecting from his future games.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

I suspect not. I don't KNOW anything.

None of us do. Realising this is a big step. Congratulations Slarty *hug*.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: waterplant

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

I suspect not. I don't KNOW anything.

None of us do. Realising this is a big step. Congratulations Slarty *hug*.

Let's not slip into solipsism, now.

[Mea Tulpa]

The zoom out function sounds easy to program, actually. It's just a question of making sure the graphics work on a smaller scale, which they might not easily.

[Celtic Minstrel]

Originally Posted By: Unknown NPC

That zoom out thing sounds difficult to program,

I don't think it would be much harder than the minimap.

[Unplayable Playable Character]

Okay, well maybe not too difficult, but still a bit unnecessary. I'm guessing it would still be more work than just a minimap. If you're gonna have a zoom out feature you might as well make it pretty. So my point still stands, IMO.

 

By the way, does anyone know what language Jeff writes games in?

[Skomer]

Some version of C / C+ / C++ I think.

[ThirdParty]

Well, okay, if not a zoom out, maybe a button that will make unexplored areas of the minimap flash briefly?

[Dikiyoba]

Why not just make explored areas and unexplored areas a different color. That's easier than having to use a special feature to see what areas are unexplored. There are enough people complaining about the mini-map that it's clear that it's poorly designed.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Celtic Minstrel]

Originally Posted By: Skomer

Some version of C / C+ / C++ I think.

There is no such thing as C+; only C and C++.

[The Mystic]

But if memory serves, there is such a thing as C#.

[Celtic Minstrel]

Yes, yes there is. Let us not speak of this again.

[Kennedy]

Actually I like how the minimap notes points of interest, though having different colors for explored or unexplored areas would be nice.

[ThirdParty]

I've gotten permission from Jeff to pass on this email exchange I had with him during the Avernum 6 beta:

Originally Posted By: Jeff Vogel

Originally Posted By: ThirdParty

I find it annoying that unexplored space on the automap looks the same as ground--it makes it harder to tell where I've been and where I haven't.

It is annoying, but drawing something for every spot gives an FPS hit. It's a lot of little draws. Right now I don't have a solution.

[Monroe]

Aw, man. It doesn't have to be like the old colorful maps, which were overly detailed (I remember for the real heavily wooded areas of Nethergate and Avernum 3 I'd use the minimap instead of the normal view to get around, but that seems unnecessary now that outdoors are gone). Honestly, just coloring explored land a slightly darker grey would be fine. That would make the map more useful, not too easy, and it probably wouldn't hurt the graphics much at all.

[Skomer]

Well, good to know Jeff is broadly in agreement about the explored vs unexplored areas.

 

I wish I understood the technomological side of it so that I could come up with a magical solution. Failing that I suppose I could offer to draw by hand every area at every possible stage of exploration. Shouldn't take too long?

[Mea Tulpa]

Hmm, interesting. Given the simplicity of the current automap (monocolor squares) I am guessing that just adding more squares that need to be shaded would cause an FPS hit as well. Assuming movement is Geneforge-style and not Avernum-style, I can at least sort of understand why this might happen.

 

The "hit a button to pause and bring up a larger automap with explored areas shaded" idea still seems like it could work, though.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

The "hit a button to pause and bring up a larger automap with explored areas shaded" idea still seems like it could work, though.

Do you mean like the Exile 1 automap? *shudder*

[Mea Tulpa]

The Exile 1 automap neither pauses the game, nor shades explored areas in any meaningful way. And don't be silly.

[Unplayable Playable Character]

I remember briefly trying Exile 1 shortly after beating G2. It confused me. I did however manage to play T3 without problems.

 

Also I agree with Slarty that the pause thing would work, it just doesn't seem that Jeff would be willing to do it (if he was willing to do anything about improving the map).

[Celtic Minstrel]

...T3?

[The Ratt]

I think he meant G3. The G key and the T key are right next to each other.

 

I am wondering why he just doesn't do the mini-map like G5. I never had any trouble navigating with that.

[Celtic Minstrel]

Ah. Good point.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: The Ratt

I think he meant G3. The G key and the T key are right next to each other.

I am wondering why he just doesn't do the mini-map like G5. I never had any trouble navigating with that.

Yeah, I've memorized the number keys and their shift symbols, so when someone says A@, I know what they mean.

9It's handy for parentheses, too0

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

Originally Posted By: The Ratt

I think he meant G3. The G key and the T key are right next to each other.

I am wondering why he just doesn't do the mini-map like G5. I never had any trouble navigating with that.

Yeah, I've memorized the number keys and their shift symbols, so when someone says A@, I know what they mean.

9It's handy for parentheses, too0

Not so easy if you use a German keyboard...