Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Birk777 Does getting the Crystal Soul Shard anger anyone? Or is there a way to pull it off without upsetting the Vahanati? You can get the Soul Shard by asking Epiron-Bok for a piece of himself. He demands some of your own knowledge with which to replace the shard, and then he sucks 1 point of Endurance and Intelligence out of each character in exchange for it. Otherwise, you can kill him and take it for free, angering the Vahnatai, naturally, and getting a message about the Empire starting a war with another Vahnatai clan (does not effect your ending or anything). Good list, by the way. Very Helpful.

I expected the Shapers to split between traditionalists and canister users, there doesn't sound like too much of a difference between the two Randomizer described, unless the traditionalists have become much more moderate since their last incarnation. Yay for kind-hearted drakons!

Originally Posted By: Khoth If you think about it clearly, it's obvious that the thing to do is to use every canister you find, and kill anyone who tries to stop you. Uhg, you sound as if you've used one two many canisters yourself, Khoth. Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd Who says that the person who made the canister will use it? I was under the impression that if you made the canister, you put your own genetic code into it. So using a canister you made would have no effect, right?

Originally Posted By: Dark Nept But what about the "5 factions" Jeff stated? You have to start out as one of the two major factions and are introduced to the others later in the game. At least that's what I've come to understand. Oh, and you forgot Ghaldring in your list, even though he didn't exactly appear in person in Geneforge 2 and 3, he was sort of in both. He's also pretty unique in that he's the only character you've never gotten the chance to face in battle, aside from the Shaper Council, of course.

I wonder if there will be major differences (such as who is alive or dead) that are dependent on whether you start as a rebel or a shaper. Sort of like Knights of the Old Republic 2, where you had to choose how the first game ended in the beginning.

Originally Posted By: AnarhIztok2511 Just one question - how many of those who answered "no" actually don't use canisters in the games? Well, it is a game. I certainly do have playthroughs where I don't use canisters. I find them to be the most satisfying.

Originally Posted By: Ale193 they should only be given to people who deserved such power I would agree, but who decides who deserves the power? I agree with Plato in that I think the only people who deserve power are those that don't want it. As far as shaping goes, only those that would take the time to learn it hard way, those who have come to understand its consequences and its costs, they are the only ones who should ever be allowed such power. Even then I would hope they would refuse it.

Power itself corrupts. Maybe not everyone, but it will corrupt many, enough for me to say no to the poll, and no to canisters in general. Even no to Shaping in general, as it has only ever led to evil people trying to be gods. You never see a benevolent Shaper, canister user or otherwise. No one has ever created something for the sake of life, only to serve their own desires. No shaper has ever treated a creation like a being with it's own life, its own desires, even the Rebellion has forgotten what it fights for. The world would be better off without the practice, as it only brings new beings into the world as slaves. Conflict is inherent with such a power existing. Sorry for getting a bit off topic half way through there.

Hey, Redwall was good stuff! I stopped after Marlfox, though, so I don't know how it went after that.

Originally Posted By: Nioca Failed? In the Awakened ending, they held the Shapers at bay. That ending is not canon. The Awakened were wiped out in Drypeak Valley, remember? Isolation actually failed three different factions in Geneforge 2 alone, and now history barely even remembers them. Ghaldring was very wise not to make the same mistake his predecessors did.

Originally Posted By: Nioca I think a battle of attrition on the Ashen Isles might actually prove advantageous to the Rebels. I'm afraid not. That very strategy failed the Awakened in Geneforge 2, sadly. Their sacrifice should reveal the futility of their methods. No, retreat is not an option, remaining on the defensive even is not an option, not when the enemy's goal is your extinction. Even if I believed the drakons would attempt to become the undisputed masters of all lesser species, which I am not convinced, is not wiping out an entire sentient species a far less noble cause?

Originally Posted By: Nioca True enough. Your point? My point? My point was that the unbound were justified. I... did you forget what we were talking about? Quote: Wrong answer! Try "vengeance". Believe me, if survival or freedom were the primary motives, the Drakons would have already retreated from Terrestria to regroup. Retreated where? First isolation, now retreat. You guys speak as if there is all this unclaimed land in the Geneforge world. I'm not claiming to know more than you but we had best both not make such assumptions. Nalyd, why did you pick the Shapers as your side then?

Originally Posted By: Nioca No, merely stating that just because someone's sending a message doesn't excuse them to commit atrocities. It most certainly does. Would you approve of going to war with a nation over something such as the Holocaust? Many, many innocent people will die in such a war, and your only real targets are those in power, but it would still seem worth it, no? Quote: I'm not questioning their intelligence; I'm questioning their motives. Survival? That is their number one motive. When the threat is gone, they will warm to humanity, just as they already have with those that sympathize to them. Quote: Uh, excuse me? I think you're confusing me with Nayld (current PDN as The Limper) You are correct, I apologize. Nalyd, in your last post, you describe drakons in the exact way that I would describe humans. Are they not worthy of elimination just as the drakons are, by your definition? They are just as dangerous, if not more so due to their... creativity. Quote: I guarantee you that the war would never last a thousand years. Not because of preference for one side or the other, but because by the time year 200 of the war came around, both sides would have likely developed bioweapons more than capable of destroying the other. Oh, dear. Then the drakons are, in fact, being merciful by attempting to end the war now with but one half a continent dead, rather than the whole world. The rest will get to live on, at least.

Originally Posted By: Safey their willing to let the war sit in a stalemate. A stalemate war is a terrible, terrible fate. Better to be merciful and attempt to end the war proactively than to allow this carnage to continue for a thousand years.

Originally Posted By: Nioca Al-Queda sends messages too. Doesn't make it right. Now your equating the United States' crimes with those of the Shapers? Please be a bit more careful with your analogies. Quote: Fair point, but Humans have already played servant to the Drakons. Take a look at how they're treated in GF4! It isn't much of a leap. If humanity ends up accepting a servile role under the drakons, they deserve it. Otherwise, humanity has every right to fight the new oppressors. That is, assuming things turn out that way, we will have to see whether or not they do. I personally don't think they will, drakons are not so stupid, they will see that they can benefit from having humans as allies. Quote: I don't hate the entire species. I think, somewhere in that cesspit of destruction, there's a few Drakons that are interested in doing the right thing. I do hope you have changed your previous opinion of "there is no reason to allow the drakons to survive."

Surely you meant a thousand posts, not pages?

Originally Posted By: Nioca If that were true, the unbound wouldn't have been released on Terrestria, and Salassar wouldn't have ripped his head open. They sent a message with the unbound. The people of the Shaper heartlands are refusing to rise up against the Shapers. They needed to bear witness to the carnage the rest of the world is suffering while they grow fat off the labor of slave creations. The unbound come with an off switch, and the citizens of the Shaper empire are free to replace the unbound as the drakon's primary weapon whenever they wish. Quote: Why not? The serviles already are being brainwashed into becoming servants to the Drakons, so why not humans next? Serviles are, in fact, genetically predisposition to brainwashing. Humans (as much as the contrary may seem at times) are not. Quote: It's supported by Drakon behavior. So there. But I already said that the drakons have worked with numerous humans over the corse of the games. Don't hate the entire species just because of the feelings of a few (even though those few all likely had good reasons for their hatreds).

Originally Posted By: Nioca Wiktionary Your questionable source aside, I would still argue that killing someone for their race is a far greater crime than killing someone because they want to kill you first. Only the former involves prejudice. I would not equate the two, even if the some definitions do. Next you quoted Warmaster Karikiss. This is the opinion of one disgruntled drakon, who doesn't even seem sure of what he's saying at first. They are at war and fighting for their lives, of course many of them will feel this way about humans, they have been at the mercy of them from the time of their conception! In the end, they always adhere to reason, however, they work with you in the games, and they even come to respect you in the game endings. If they end up as the ruling class, it is because they are most fit to rule. I believe there will always be humans that prove themselves to them, as they do in the games, and humanity will hardly become a servant species in the new order. Also, Greta is not the leader of the human rebellion, Litalia is. Queen Litalia. Ghaldring is not so arrogant as to grace himself with such a title. Quote: They're not; they won't be happy till each and every Shaper has been wiped off the face of Genia I gave an example of Drakons negotiating, you disagreed and made a statement with no support? I thought this was a debate?

Originally Posted By: The Limper. If Drakons wanted merely to survive, they could have disappeared into the wilderness, instead of starting a Rebellion. Revenge is certainly a factor here, as well it should be. Living in isolated secrecy, living in fear that any dar you could be discovered and attacked for no reason is no way to live at all. Why do they not have the right to live peacefully where they wish to live, is that not a right of all living things? Quote: Not a single reason exists to let them survive. Another terrible things to say! First, they have a right to live. Second, they have plenty to offer the other races of the world. They are gifted shapers, they seem to excel at anything they do. Up to this point, they have been forced into a corner, forced to devote all their time to simply surviving a war against the most powerful force in the known world. Imagine the things they could create, all that they could contribute to civilization, if they were simply allowed to live freely and without fear. Quote: Supposition. When has a Drakon approached the Shapers peacefully? Litalia. Edit: Ghaldring beat me to that one. It was pretty obvious I suppose.

Originally Posted By: The Limper. and the fact that they're attempting to more or less commit genocide would indicate that they want it, yes? The drakons are attempting to wipe out a particular idea, not a species or race. That idea is the prejudice against their race. Yes, they are using only violence to to fight against this idea rather than reason, but this course of action was chosen by the Shapers, not by the drakons themselves. The drakons are marked for death by the Shapers already simply for existing, and desire only a world where living is not a crime. You can't blame them for thus trying to solve this problem with further violence, as thus has been the language the Shapers greeted them with upon their entry to the world. The fact that drakons have been working with humans in the Rebellion and even allow them to hold positions of great power shows that they do not seek the death of the whole race and they can, in fact, be reasoned and worked with if others are willing. However, until Shapers are willing to sit down with them, the violence will continue. The ball in is the Shaper's field.

I agree with Alorael, mostly. I think the Exile graphics looked awesome, they were maybe the best looking. I think the Avernum engine was an improvement, but it did hurt the monster graphics. The newer Avernums, recycled or not, benefited greatly from borrowing Geneforge's bestiary. I must say though that I miss the old turquoise and deep purple of the Exile games, and don't so much like the paler Avernum palette. It doesn't create an inappropriate atmosphere, just a different one. Lost the nostalgia, though it's still doing a great job of creating it's own. But then, I already had a palette discussion somewhere else already.

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen Anyhow... it does, actually, seem odd that I can simply go upstairs in the gremlin's home, steal a couple bottles and then come back down and quest his own wine back to him. I suppose not all gremlins are as clever as they think they are. Granted that alcohol dulls the senses, but... aren't gremlins generally habitual drinkers? It is entirely possible that the gremlin is particularly lazy and he was in fact very thankful that you brought his wine to him so he wouldn't have to get up and grab it himself.

Originally Posted By: Thuryl It's a bit sad that people feel the need to say this, isn't it? I don't ever recall anyone apologising for recommending to a woman a book that had a male protagonist. It just goes to show men have a harder time understanding the opposite sex than women do, and they're not afraid to admit it.

I agree with The Limper, Jeff probably doesn't want the game getting stale, so he is cutting it down in it's prime instead. I take solace in knowing that Jeff has a habit of remaking old games anyway, so I doubt this will truly be the last we see of this world. My only regret is that he is ending on an odd number, the obsessive compulsive part of me wishes he's stop at six instead.

Originally Posted By: MrsVodes I quit trying to kill the blue guy, it was making me blue I feel like not being skilled enough should never be a reason why you don't finish a game (or a reason to be for that matter). Just so you know, cheating isn't a crime.