alhoon

The main thing that has kept me so far away from GF2, after a lot of people (this site and others) mention it as either the best of the games or one of the best instalments is... the clunky system. But I think I found a solution so that I can enjoy the game. Be warned: The way I will choose to enjoy the game will not conform with most of you. 1. I will play on easy. I do that so - that I can defeat battles without frustration and reloads after losing my favorite pets. I am one of the persons that reloads when they lose a creation. I am, at heart, a lifecrafter. I care about them. - that I can avoid challenge areas and their artifacts \ rewards, unless I am interested in them story-wise. - that I can avoid opening my inventory screen and character screen as much as possible. - that I can focus on mechanics\leadership without being weak in combat + endurance to survive. 2. I will cheat to get +10 strength to carry stuff and a +2 to intelligence to have more spell energy and essence. I will cheat to get the tinkerer gloves so that I won't have to look for them. Once I find Ice Spray and later Essence Orbs, I will cheat to increase my character's ability with those by +3 levels do be able to do some damage. 3. I will play a Shaper. I know Guardians are stronger. But I like Shapers. 4. I will play with an eye towards the Building Rebellion. Which may prove hard. It was near impossible in GF3 since while I abhor the Shaper Tyranny and all... I started as already a member of this elite, privileged group. People were talking to me with respect and all. And my personal convictions would have me surrender my place of power and superiority... over a bunch of people that killed everyone my character associated with the past 4 years except one teacher that allowed them to do it. Before trying to kill me for entering the wrong inn. The main argument of the mass murderess bully to my character as he escaped the destruction of the place he called home for the past 4 years was "Look, society is going down. You can either join us or go down with a sinking ship. We killed all your friends. We may kill you. I will allow you to make your choice" Not very convincing argument. Regardless I have high hopes that at least some of the Rebels will be better this time around. The Drakons are just being made I think, so that eliminates the bad part of the Rebels as bossy leaders and Shaper-wannabes. WHY WOULD I DO THOSE? In order to avoid clicking inventory and character sheet as much as possible. To Avoid having to micromanage. To avoid having to worry about equipment. Why not cheating my character to Godhood? Because I want difficult parts to feel difficult. The way I will play the game, ignoring equipment and sensible character creation in favor of story will heavily penalize me, so I believe it would be balanced out.

Point taken. Don't expect miracles but expect things to improve on how I regard GF2. I have not realized that what I did was mostly saying "Look, I decided to read that book of Asian history from chapter 14, the point of the Mongol Invasions onwards cause that I want to know" and then bugging people with "wait, you say the Chinese system X that is covered in chapter 10 because it was developed in the 5th century? What did the chapter say?" Why I say "don't expect miracles"? It will not come as a surprise for any of you but... I consider GF1-GF2 prequels to the main thing, the Great Rebellion, not GF3-5 as sequels to the main thing, someone stepping at the wrong island and discovering a secret that would profoundly change history (because the Rebellion WILL win! Down with the oppressors!) . Which is the reason I started late in the chain of the games. But I've found a solution on the GF2 at least issues. I'll play on easy difficulty to be able to focus on mechanics* without frustrating battles + I will cheat myself to a +10 strength to be able to carry stuff. And I need some help to enjoy it despite the system's shortcomings.

Ah, I posted two follow-up questions.

- Yes, happy. - I have already been convinced by the "if we go by class, Serviles > men" argument. - If I may ask, why did yo assume I would not be convinced by the "there was a female guardian that was nothing out of the ordinary in GF2"? I am not on a crusade here people... I am not trying to prove that I am right. I am asking and trying to make sense. It is evident by two arguments (Servile one, GF2 Guardian one) that I was wrong. That's perfectly fine.

You make a nice point here and that's the reason I am happy you take the time to debate with me even after commenting unfavorably about my posting habits and stubbornness. Yes, going by class Serviles > Men. Serviles are not more powerful than men. No debate about that. Those that are better than men in magic are because they went to extreme lengths, scars etc or they used the geneforge. Geneforge\Canisters effects aside, it is clear that "going to extreme lengths" leads to serviles being better in magic, hence arguably one's potential is not "locked" by race. And if Serviles can focus on an area and become "Average" at it from "weak", it is logical that genders can too. Now, let me change the question (And I don't do it out of stubbornness or need to endlessly argue, the question popped in my mind): - Does the Geneforge \ Ability to Shape make women stronger than men in magic? You know, the basis of the class system. And another one, which is kinda what I should have started with: - Are Guardians actually weak in magic and Agents weak in Shaping, or it is a result of game balance and design? It makes sense world-wise that people focusing on combat would spend more time training in weapons (thus NPC Guardians would have weapon skills when encountered) while people working behind enemy lines (Guardians) would spend more time in crowd control (thus NPC Agents would be good in magic when encountered). And of course, people that stay in labs and do research should be good in Shaping. But Agents are not presented as weak in Shaping (with the exception of Perhaps Greta) as they can call several and powerful creations. Before someone says "That's game balance! Don't take the abilities Agents show in combat as representative!" ... is there any reference that they are actually weak in shaping?

My apologies if it seems that way, but I think you take the wrong impressions of my posts and my tone. - I agree I discuss or debate (not argue) a lot. But not endlessly and I don't do it out of spite or stubbornness. Like the example above. I just have not been convinced. - I don't argue strongly or with as much conviction. In this thread for example I am not sure I am right and I have said so several times. I don't know why you say that I argue with as much confidence, but that's not the case after you all mentioned GF1-2. Before you mention GF1-2 in those discussions that you disagree with me though, apologies but how would I know that GF1-2 would be relevant? - I don't make demands, I politely request in cases that the GF1-2 when I am told that they contradict GF3-5. To be sincere, I think we're on the wrong foot here. You make me sound like a stubborn, argumentative, demanding kid when I am not. Several people disagreed with me in this thread but only you seem to take offence that I am not convinced. Perhaps I read the tone of your post wrong, but the impression I get is that you're offended that a person with less knowledge about this topic disagrees with you. Of course not and I am thankful that you take the time to reply.

Hmmm... interesting take but it's not just the class system, it's also what we're being told in the games I've seen. However: If Lilith remembers correctly the quote and Jeff did say "don't make gender assumptions based on the class system for Geneforge" (I assumed it was for his other games really), then of course, the whole point is mute. He made the world. Now, in the case the quote was about different games, if I may: 1. How would Serviles be stronger or better in magic than humans? There are powerful human warriors (Guardians\Warriors) and powerful human spellcasters (sorceress, Agent, Infilitrator). Also, I was not talking about game mechanics. I completely agree they can't be applied well. We often see guards in low-level areas that are said to be awesome and have 1/4th of the power of guards in high-level areas. "Not good in Shaping" Agents drop tier 5 creations in combat without any hiccup. I don't dispute that at all. However, as I said my assumptions were not based on mechanics. They were based on what we're being told in the games I've seen. [PS. While it was never said, I (probably erroneously, I admit that) assumed miner-serviles were stronger than humans... Seemed too... unfair otherwise. ] 2. It would be silly, true. The author may have used feminine models because that's what he liked and not because Agents were supposed to be women only. But perhaps that reference was made about other games? Is that quote somewhere in the site so I could check it? 3. Well, was it mentioned in the earlier games that the sects were not gender based? I'm not playing coy here, I sincerely ask and would like to know the answer since my knowledge of the pre-retcon world lacks heavily. (Please avoid major spoilers. A "Yes, in GF2 someone mentions it" would be sufficient) Now, since it has been mentioned: Other examples of "ehh... what?!" differences from arts \ mechanics \ story come to mind aside of the Vlish Dominion of the Ashen Isles (can Vlish reproduce? If yes... ) (No need to remind me that I haven't played GF1-2 with a remark about my incomplete knowledge please If those are mentioned elsewhere please just inform me, and you'll have my gratitude) - Nearly all introductions mention Shapers making Creations for light housework... We could assume it's Serviles but very rarely Servile-Shaping is mentioned. It's just in passing in GF4 that the Shapers are Shaping new Serviles that are more Obedient and the ending of GF5 from what I recall. - Has anyone seen any kid being mentioned? - Why door creations never go rogue? - Who feeds the doors? - Why can't Shapers control a non-rogue door to open or lock? Same with mines to not blow up. - If essence pools are big enough to hold enough essence to support spamming of dozens of creations without the essence finishing, why Essence pods are so damned expensive?

That could be, but there is canon reference that Guardians are only males and the "low-budget art asset" of the Agent could have been less feminine. So, I strongly believe that what you call "story/gameplay differences" doesn't apply here. The argument you brought up that GF5 is somehow less canon than the rest also doesn't apply here (in my opinion) since GF5 is the last game thus the one most recent and developed. So, if I may ask, are there any male Agents or Female guardians (other than Manola) in the series? Is there a reference that contradicts Manola that only men can be Guardians? If yes, and there's a reference in the early games about it, we could discuss whether it takes precedence. Also, if there's a reference of the kind "Shapers decided only Women will be agents for X reason" and X is not "because women are stronger in magic and weaker in physical combat" then we could also discuss it. And of course, if there's a reference "Men and women are of equal magic \ physical prowess but Shapers decided men will be Guardians and Women will be agents" that would invalidate my whole argument. But... are there any such references?

The size of the Shaper council changed cause provinces were lost and a decade passed. The age of the Shaper Empire and the 2nd continent were never explicitly detailed. Given this fact, I would say that "no sir, GF5 doesn't seem to play fast and loose and is completely canonical" + "if there is any contradiction I would say the last game takes precedence". Aside of that, IIRC there are mentions before GF5 that Guardians are male only and that Agents are female only in GF4 and GF3. It wasn't a surprise for me when I found that in GF5 because I've seen it in GF4. And even if we take that out (which I think we shouldn't), there are no female Guardians (aside of Manola that required Shaping) or male Agents in GF. And the "art constraints"... Guardians are shown with an armor. Like Guardian Manola is a normal guardian model and she's a woman Guardians could have been made to be both women and men. A different model for Agent that was less obviously feminine could have worked also. So, I don't believe art constraints are the reason all Guardians encountered are men and all Agents encountered are women. I believe it was an decision of the game maker. As such, I believe there's established lore in several of the GF games that supports females are stronger in magic than males. Now on the other point, GF5 is not the game known for getting stuff wrong. Changes from GF1-3 can be because of the large time frame. Changes from GF4 can be because of the imminent victory of the Rebellion. (Of course, I don't disagree that my synopsis of 5 millennia of recorded human interaction is simplified. ) There are more women Guardians than GF5 Manola? Haven't met any, at all. Perhaps in GF1-2 there are (since I haven't played them), but I haven't seen them. As for the Agent feminine graphics... it wouldn't be hard to order a sprite that was less feminine and could be used for both genders, like the Shaper, Guardian and Servile ones.

But there are strictly NOT men agents and only ONE woman guardian that had Rawal Shape her to man to pass the physicals in the whole series...

I was thinking the other day about the balance of gender power in GF (human) society based on what we can deduct solely from the (human) class system of the games. - Women and Men seem to be equally able in Shaping. We have male and female Shapers\Lifecrafters. - Men are better warriors than women. Only male classes are "Strong" in combat. - Women are better in magic than men. Only female classes are "Strong" in magic. So, we have no (human) women "Strong" in physical combat and no men "strong" in magic. That leads me to think: Millennia of real-world history indicates that when pre-enlightment human side A is stronger than human side B, side A dominates side B. It was during enlightment that very few people at first started questioning "OK, we could oppress women \ less advanced people \ less numerous people. But should we do it?" And let's not pretend that the "perhaps not" side has won worldwide even in 21st century. Undeniably, skill in magic is more powerful than combat skill. Before Shaping got in the equation, that would mean that women would be much more powerful than men in crucial positions. Which should have led to a vastly disproportionate number of matriarchies, Queens, female chieftains, etc etc. before the inevitable Shaper domination (cause Shaping is presented as somewhat more powerful than magic and Shapers are not bad in magic either). And yet, in GF5 and GF4, the remains of pre-Shaper people are not shown to be female-dominated as I think they should have been. So, I am asking, in such a world where the most powerful weapon was women spellcasters before the Shapers shouldn't there have been a culture of matriarchy that would have "infiltrated" the Shaper Society making Shapers too pro-female-dominant? I mean the first Shapers could have been "oppressed males" that became the equivalent of Guardian or Shaper but after the Empire started expanding and incorporating thousands of people that should have been female-dominated for centuries, shouldn't that have shifted towards female-dominance?

Development of a new zone didn't prove to be as hard as I anticipated. If it takes time is because I do other things. So, if you know what you're doing and what you want to do with a zone, its purpose, its basic decisions etc it's not hard to make the descriptions and idle dialogue. For the few NPCs that count... that's the same as with any other change you put in the game. All in all, developing a new zone once you have a plan for it is not that time consuming although it's not very rewarding.

Ehh... Well, I would swear there was an items list there (not the synergy item list) that was giving me 404 error. In any case, all links that are in the first post work for me at this time (and they all seem to be from this forum except one).

Some of the links appear to be dead.

Actually with the +2 intelligence my creations Can get rogue in GF4 and GF5. I figured that the bad way in GF4. My wingbolt was very damaged and I was looking at it thinking to draw it out of the battle. Next thing I now, it went rogue and killed my character with one shot. Ungrateful thing... In GF5 I also had that happen although it's rare (since my creations have high intelligence from level and items) Shapers need those big blue Crystals to control creations from far away. Taking control of creations... it happened in GF5 final battle though. And with Shaila's artilla perhaps it was the creature shaking out your control out of loyalty. Serviles I think are mentioned to rarely be able to do that.

I think since times have changed and there's GF5 in the mix, that a description [GF4] should go along nicely in the title of this very useful list. -32 or +36? That would be near impossible for me to reach as some quests on both sides are too far gone for me to go completely one way or another.

Yes because the player never releases control of those creations. I always assumed that we can have 7 creations while medium-power Shapers are shown with a couple dozens. The guy Shaping brains for Alwan controls 46, by changing which ones he controls at the time. The creations in the forts and all are said to be there and a Shaper comes over once a while and calms them which makes me think they come, take control, make them nice and placid and then release them and go to a different camp. The commander in Rockfall mentions this. There are also the handlers that are Outsiders leading the Creations into battle (or, ahem, renting them out) without Shaper supervision and we see a lot of those handlers in the games. It is mentioned in Rawal's castle that Rawal and his Shapers are keeping the Tralls under strict control. And that madwoman Shaper Alexie that Shapes Rots has them "controlled" by a pillar. And there are the pacification pylons. All in all, we see a lot to suggest that Shapers put things up to "keep creations calm" until they need them. At times the player can take temporary control of creations. Mainly turrets in GF5 and a bunch of insanely powerful creations in the fight against Ghadring. First time I played the battle, before I realize it's not a hard battle for my 47-lvl artifact-full Shaper... I led so many creations against Ghaldring that they had trouble getting in the fight to get a shot. (Bragging follows) Ever Artillae are somewhat tricky from what I saw in GF3/4. Shaila's Artilla in GF4 you take control of and get with you. Until he sees Shaila and immediately the ungrateful worm flips sides. In GF3 there's an about-to-rogue Artilla that Hoge made that I couldn't take over but I could control it long enough to absorb it. Rawal in GF5 absorbed my Fyora. MY Fyora. Not an uncontrolled Fyora or released Fyora.

It's not just making it into the mod, It's one of the pillars of the mod. The late part is for base command stuff, getting your troops to a good shape and utilizing them in various ways from getting them to come with you so you have a bunch of essence-free powerful support to setting up routes for serviles to escape Dera Reaches. The first part of the mod is about finding some powerful gear with an added twist that to unlock some of the variations you have to look. Frankly even if people don't even go for the base at all, the inclusion of the Batons, Shields and weapons makes a Warrior\Guardian run easier. You have my sincere thanks.

Hmmm... True. He is even described as a bad tactician by his own people. More research than decision-making abilities.

But Gazers are not just bad, they don't just have the "tendency" to become rogue, they're nearly auto-rogue. Sure a war-trall may have 2% to become rogue within a year or two if you calm it every few weeks. A Gazer? Would probably go rogue the moment you release control to take the next one in the line. And Gazers are also very smart and very good in magic. An angry Gazer could know what to blow up to cause damage in the facility and sabotage research. All in all, they are some of the most dangerous creations for Taygen's purposes... and not that better than War-tralls.

I found something that I have forgot: There are Gazers in Taygen's Spire and his pet agent there, that works on the purity agent, Shapes Rots. OK, Rots can be found in other Shaper places in GF5 (Shaper Alexie the Barred-creation researcher has some in a Fort). But... Gazers? They have been phased out of the Rebellion as too unpredictable according to GF4 Litalia. And Taygen of all people has 2 Gazers in the Spire?

Hello! May I suggest you delete the first part that's already in the scripts and use an upload site to put up the txt instead? Welcome to the forums. If you're interested in further modding, we have a discussion going with another modder that has some interesting information about modding.

Due to adding even more content, and incorporating a version of the Artifact Baton \ weapons mod of Gamerman in which you have to find (or buy) the recipes and adding an extra zone (or perhaps two, we will see), the warrior mod will be further delayed... apologies. It's a big mod though. Adds very useful weapons (thanks to Gamerman) in the early part and lots of content in the later part.

As for Ghaldring's age: I don't think he's that old. Ghaldring turned Litalia to the Rebellion. And since Litalia in GF5 seems to be in her 50s, it means that she probably was in her 30s or older when she blasted out most Drakons and Drayks out of existence between GF2 and GF3. So with GF3-5 being a span ~10 years according to text I would say 10 years at most between GF2 and GF3. Probably less since neither Litalia nor Ghaldring seem the patient types.

Not Drakons. Ghaldring. The guy that is considered cold reptile by most... is not that cold after all. It was a revelation. I don't think it is pragmatism. It hurts him to have Tholoss alive. He knows he works with Astoria. He chooses to have him alive regardless. As far as drakon emotions go, I don't think their alien-ess comes to emotions. They seem to form attachments. To like people. Akari Blaze liked Jarred as I recall. It's Ghaldring's soft side that blind-sinded me. IMO their alieness is in their laws and duel culture. Strong eats (literaly) the weak. No wonder they end up worse than the Shapers. So I thinking "perhaps I miss something here" and asked the forum. The reason of "enemy of my enemy" doesn't fit well for Tholoss. Tholoss doesn't fight the Shapers and works with Astoria. He's not an enemy of his enemies. Not completely. The "too much bother to kill him" doesn't fit either. Ghaldring spends a ton of resources to convince Tholoss to join again. Since Tholoss just walked there and the ghosts didn't mind him, then another Drakon, or Drayks could do it. Or Ghaldring could have sealed the case. Or just ignore him. For Litalia, it's clear-cut sentimentality unless Shakass made a very grave miscalculation. She expects to be rewarded for killing Litalia after Ghaldring gets over her death. Although Litalia is an enemy of the Shapers. She hits them very, very hard... until she makes a 180 and has Ghaldring killed. She doesn't join the fight either against Ghaldring. She has no problem to have a dozen creations in a Trakovite lair, but doesn't show her face to take down Ghaldring. Well, it's not like the Shapers would embrace her if she did...