alhoon

Without delving in most of what's been said in the thread: Correction. I started watching a series with human-looking robots (Humans TV series). The robots creep the heck out of me, to the point I take breaks from watching the first episode. And back to the discussion: It's not. First it was wrong of the rebellion to not warn everyone of the risks involved, that your personality will change you won't just get to shoot firebolts. Second, they did warn some people, just not everyone. Jarred has been warned beforehand. Litalia was made so by Shaper conditioning, like most of them. It's not just the boost from the canisters, it's that power corrupts. And the Shapers take their students in from early age and condition them \ braiwash them. By the time you were in that school in GF3, at like 20, you were in the system for like 5 years. Yes, Shapers are more honest. They're also more oppressive and way more tyrannical. Nope, it didn't result in Litalia. Litalia was very capable, strong discipline, no empathy towards creations and nearly devoid of emotions. She told me in two games she burned serviles alive as they were begging for their lives. She wiped out Drayks, Serviles and Drakons in the Drypeaks mercilessly. She attacked a freaking school and set monsters to go eat people so people would be mad at Shapers. She lacked empathy. And another thing since you keep mentioning it: That loyal mage, is asking for more magical spells, not to become a Shaper. She's denied progressing in a different field. Hmmm? Shapers can't absorb creations they haven't made themselves, unless the creation is nice and calm and they have it under control. If they could, rebellion would be over pretty quickly. In order to absorb a creation, in GF3, you take control of it, and then slowly dismantle the magic holding it. At that's for a lowly artila BTW, that's not rogue. I think it says somewhere in GF4 that you can't do that to rogues; unless you have them under control, YOUR control, you can't absorb them. Of course without the Canisters and the Geneforge the rebellion would be lost! I never denied that. Even with the canisters and the geneforges, it took the Unbound to turn the tide and in 4/6 endings in GF5, the rebellion loses anyway. I disagree with you, and so does the Rebellion. Better die standing than live on your knees. In our flag the colors symbolize "Freedom or Death". Enslaving a nation\sentient race is worse than killing people. "But that "yes" still mean you find it ok to kill 10 people instead of 1, if you personally think those 10 people are properly hated." Yes. "If they're murderers, fine, it's fair; but many shapers you kill during rebelion, they're not. They are probably mean to outsiders and they absorb their own creations when needed, the same thing you do during your own gameplay, but that's it. Let alone the real innocent people" War is a bad business and I admit I have done some pretty horrible things in the 2 games (and probably will do so in GF3). I have killed or led to the death Shapers or soldiers that were not mean to outsiders. Like those nice people in Rockfall, that I fed to Unbound just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's war. You kill enemies that you have nothing against. And another thing that goes on in the war and isn't shown in the game too much: In war good people get killed and opportunists survive. When we were fighting the Turks to gain independence, the brave patriotic people were dying and their families hunted down. Same with the Nazi Occupation. Guess who had a much better rate of survival? The collaborators that turned on the enemy only when it was clear which side would win. Back to wars, I've spoken with veterans. They had to kill people they knew nothing about and that they knew they were fighting for their own country. People they could relay to, but that they were shooting at because they have been born on a different side of the border. They said they could relate to them, realized they shared the same fear, that they had loved ones praying for them and all. Greek soldiers became friends with Italian captives of the war. My grandfather befriended several german officers after WW2, when he was sent to defeated Germany as occupation force by the allies. He says he has met monsters full of hate and good people that have just been on the other side. That is what Astoria understands and Alwan doesn't. In an Astoria ending, I could visit my Shaper turret-making friend and have a tea. I could visit Rockfall and lay flowers on the unmarked grave of that commander that had to make do with a broken gate until I led Unbound to attack him from behind. I could visit the guardian that chaffed under Taygen's command and gossip about the hateful old man. I could tell people that badmouthed Agent Miranda (IMO the best Shaper) to F-off, the same way as English and French pilots in WW1 would send to detention people that badmouthed the Red Baron after his death. We wouldn't be enemies anymore.

Oh, yes. In those dozens of posts of mine, I figured that up and realized that I had a very different meaning for "sentient" than the actual term. The word "Sapience" is closer to what I meant, but still not exactly. Also Blxz was kind enough to inform us about the mirror test and its flaws and how they test self-awareness to dogs by smell.

"then you need to kill her like in G4 first chapter" I didn't kill Shaila, I gave her to the Shapers and lied to Greta. "she can perhaps get happy for a while and sacrifice her own sanity later, murmuring "they never told me, they said I have potential, they killed me, they'll kill me again", " Giving her the FREEDOM to make the choice, doesn't mean she will make the wrong one. She's very disciplined to succumb to powerlust like Litalia. And again, I don't know if she's talented Shaper. She's a talented mage held back from her study of magic because a Shaper that goes on to make Control Cores that go rogue said so. It's not a question of whether she would be a Shaper or not (the answer is yes, she should become a Lifecrafter). She clearly has the discipline and loyalty to become a very responsible Shaper\Lifecrafter and a little emotion is not bad at all; she would feel empathy about the Serviles and the Creations she made. But the Shapers don't even allow her to progress her magic, let alone learn even rudimentary Shaping. As for the Geneforge taking her ability of empathy: Not all Lifecrafters have been geneforged. The Geneforge is a crude way to crank out Lifecrafters in astonishing speed, that should have realistically overwhelmed the Shapers within a couple of years if utilized fully. However, the Southforge Geneforge was being used selectively to make a few Lifecrafters at a time because not even the Rebellion wanted unlimited access to Shaping through a procedure that changes the mind and the Northforge one was used only by Drakons. Shaila is the one mistake the Rebels made when picking people to be Geneforged. Jarred may be an annoying, powerhungry individual that by the end, the Drakons liked, but he's not a mistake; he keeps his cool. Litalia was a mistake made by the Shapers. And Shaila is caught pretty quickly, showing that despite what the Shapers and Shaper-supporting players think, even during the bleak years of the Rebellion, the rebels showed much more talent in picking who should become a Lifecrafter. "Because really, if we have tons of people dying to join shapers" Because she doesn't try to join the Shapers, she's asking permission of learning more spells, in order to fight the people that would remove the shackles from her. OK, she made the wrong decision but it was out of loyalty to an oppressive regime that has installed Stockholm syndrome on her so she's unable to see that she harms society's future by fighting FOR the Shapers instead of against them. Also, the Shapers pick the wrong people. You say she would be a bad Shaper that would be added to the list. No. She'd be a good shaper that would be added to a different list that includes Miranda, Astoria (OK, she betrayed the Shapers), that turret-making Shaper in the border, Astoria's Shaper and Taygen's guardian that is angry he has to kill perfectly good creations but is loyal. No other sentient* species on record. We wiped out the Neanderthals ~15K years ago. So, you have to tolerate me using human vs human freedom fights. *What I described as sentient, not the weird meaning in wikipedia Geneforge world where you have hit points i.e. a bad fighter cannot kill you, wound you permanently etc and a good fighter can kill you with a baton hit + People can spam those good fighters? That's not a question about how the non-Shapers \ non-magic using \ Low-level people would fight. They would lose. World mechanics make sure of that. By the end of GF5, without cheating, I wiped out as a personal challenge a Rebel army that included 4 Unbound to see if it was possible. It was possible, it was not even too hard once you're level 48 with good artifacts and 6 uber-creations. No, the question is should those be oppressed by the people that can kill everything? The Rebellion's answer is: no. And the geneforge and cannisters evened the odds. Apparently not evened them enough, so the Rebellion had to resort to very underhanded tactics (Unbound, Shredbugs). Once the Rebellion was won, there was no need to create instantly powerful people, so the geneforges were abandoned. People could pursue power much more freely now, in both sides; Shapers have lost so many from their numbers that they would probably open up the lists. And since there was now the option of people under them jumping ship and moving to Sucia, they had to treat them better. Yes. I'm not for peaceful resistance all the time. When the Nazis occupied Greece, we didn't do Ghandi-like resistance. We fought with an insurgency. And today, it's the Greece's national day to honor the people that died during these terrible times. We consider them heroes for fighting the enemy. I didn't. I chose "kill few to save more" and joined the Rebellion. " Seems to me that if there's 1 rebel on this path, 1 shaper + 4 innocents on that path, you'd probably go kill those shaper/innocents, because it seems right, as long as you get to kill the shapers at all. " No, that's Ghaldring and a ton of servile rebels. Not me. Alwan and Taygen would go for the kill 1 rebel + 4 innocents to make sure the rebelled died. Rawal would go to "Can I kill rebel, Shaper and innocents and steal their money afterwards? If not, then I'll kill the one that is winning" Astoria now, my choice. She would kill the fewer. She turns against Shapers (quite dishonestly) to curb Alwan and she also kills Ghaldring (OK, assists me to kill Ghaldring). "That's what happened in the games, no?" Yes, because Ghaldring and Litalia hijacked the Rebellion in GF4 and unleashed the Unbound, without listening to the complains of the sane part of the Rebellion that said "For everything that's holy! STOP MAKING UNBOUND! The rebellion's saved! We can win other ways! Don't turn Western Terrestia to a graveyard!" Even some Drakons agree that the Unbound production should stop. Like the one holed up in Derra Reaches that warns you there's an Unbound that would kill him (or her, I don't recall) because they're mad. Or the one that Astoria works with and Ghaldring wants killed. Ghaldring wants a lot of Drakons killed... Yes, we MUST have empathy for the same species. Sure, Litalia is a leather husk filled with essence without emotions and all but that doesn't make me feel better when she did the operation. PS. It's not the geneforge by itself. It's the self-shaping. Canisters + geneforge. You found something here doctor. You're right. I find them mildly disturbing at first, but I'm sure I could be used to them. Nowhere close to how Monarch's living tool serviles made me feel. Here you have it: I don't know why the Monarch's serviles made me so uneasy. I had the initial reaction to want to "end them", like when I see a roach but then I felt... pity of them. If that helps you analyze me and tell me why I had that reaction from them.

Good for the dogs as this may be, dogs and other animals are nowhere near the serviles in the following: Understanding cause-consequence, self-awareness beyond the mirror tests, awareness of time in the past-present-future form and basic problem solving. They are much simpler minds with much less cognizance ability than serviles... except the ones the Monarch made. Those may be able to use tools, but they have no free will and I doubt they have greater sense of self than the "smart" animals like primates and dogs. The Monarch-made serviles also seem to lack something else that most animals in earth seems to have: self-preservation instinct and I would dare say, procreation instinct. These poor creations seem to attack the player if attacked because it's in their orders, not out of self-preservation \ fight-or-flight instinct. About the Monarch-made serviles, the question is not just if they are sentient, but if they can be considered alive or just biological self-moving robots. Yes, I know we consider plants alive, but they're not animals and I don't know the distinction in English. Or Greek. And I would like to remind everyone that Monarch was a Shaper before he lost his humanity. So much for the Shaper selection method success.

"One most important thing here: dogs are sentient. " Nah, they're not. Most actually fail the mirror test which is not good enough for me. Few very smart dogs do... and the majority of elephants. "The legally binding protocol annexed to the Treaty of Amsterdam recognizes that animals are "sentient beings", and requires the EU and its member states to "pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals"." O_O That's news to me. Amsterdam's Treaty is wrong then. Unless by sentient they mean something else. Not to mention, that if animals are considered sentient, we should be killing them for food. Which we do. "So look back on most of what you've written, and then we can decide whether serviles can have freedom later. Maybe you'll go be a fighter for dogs instead, who knows?" Serviles are sentient, dogs are not whatever people that wrote the Amsterdam treaty think. Monarch's serviles: Right! I've forgot about those poor creatures. Nope, those don't count as sentient, these were your dream of living tools with legs. They were very disturbing because their form was close to humans. But I would find Alphas and Thands more sentient than these. I believe that Litalia's attitude was the worse. I can't blame the drakon lifecrafter for being interested in the control tool. His bed-side manner was nearly as bad as Litalia's but Litalia had slightly worse bed-side manner and... she's not a Drakon. Perhaps they would. However, if it took the Roman Republic\Empire 300 years to put a law that you shouldn't just kill your slaves, and 1400 years after that for slavery to be challenged by the majority of learned and progressive enlighted scholars and 250 years after that for slavery to start being abolished around Europe and then 100 years for it to be abolished in the USA... I would prefer the Drakons doing it. However: The not-so-small problem here is the most powerful Drakons didn't have any interest to do that. Ghaldring says so himself in the "The time of the Serviles will never come". OK, they would not have serviles as slaves... but they would be 2nd-class like humans in the Shaper Empire. No thanks. I'll stick with Greta and Astoria. But even elevating them from slaves to 2nd-class is better than what the Shapers are doing. On a similar note: Slavery would have eventually be abolished in USA with time. Still, I'm sure that a lot of black people are\were happy that they were liberated by their masters dying violently. Despite some of the Union's forces doing their fair share of warcrimes. "She was always rejected because she's a very emotional person. " That was the lame excuse. Worse than her have been elevated. And at the very least, Mazdan shouldn't troll her with rejecting her learning magic even if he thought she was "too emotional" for Shaping. Interesting. I'm lucky enough to be from the area that realized this first. At first, in the 6th century BC we thought that giving the "good" people power would lead to better society. Well, it ended up with the good people being either not so good after all, or handing the power to their kids (because which parent except Taygen doesn't want the best for his kids?) and people disagreeing what actually was "good" people. And then, we more or less said "#### it. Everyone* will have power". And thus democracy was formed. Because we realized more or less what you said... and we found the solution. So did the rebellion. The Shapers thinks they're oh-so-mighty? Grab the dirt-digging peasant, teach him a few rudimentary things about morality and responsibility to one's creations and give him the power of a Shaper. Now the Shaper has the same potential with the former dirt-digger. *Males, citizens of Athens. "You're willing to let us create an unstable shaper" Moseh. Shaftoe. Taygen. Litalia. Monarch. Rawal. The list is big already. At least that woman while showing some reasonable emotion (not breaking things, just tearing up) when her dreams were against squashed underfoot by the same people that wanted her risking her life without utilizing her full magical potential and serve as a lab cleaner, is proven to be loyal to a fault to the Shapers. She should have joined the Rebellion and get the respect her talents deserved. No Shaper-made ceilings. Go for Godhood if you can manage it (better avoid it; Litalia ended up completely mad). Remember that Shaper in Harmony island in GF3? (I'm there). He's as emotional as that mage and yet, he became an ineffective, whiny Shaper. Because the question was not "kill a few to save more". It was "kill many" or "kill few to save more". There was never an option of "not killing anyone". I did a lot of bad things in the service of the rebellion. I also did a lot of bad things playing the Shaper endings against the Rebellion. There's no clearly good side. There are two bad sides. One side fights dirty to preserve their tyranny, keep sentient creatures enslaved and genocide things that disagree with them and the other side fights dirty to liberate slaves and for the right to exist of creatures that disagree with the first side (and some of them to establish their own tyranny). Do you know what was the most difficult quest for me in GF5? Ghaldring's quest to kill Astoria. A rebel-friendly Astoria that considered me a friend and ally. Astoria that was letting Serviles be. Astoria that was working with humans to end the war despite the Drakons disagreement. If there wasn't the knowledge that I would kill Rawal too, I wouldn't have done Ghaldring's ending because of Astoria. I found it very hard to kill one Shaper that didn't deserve it, in order to bring down the Empire of thousands that did deserve it. And I did it for personal gain, not morality. EDIT: Sentience. Oh, boy. The word doesn't mean what I thought. It mentions things like "Qualia" that I've never heard, makes it different from Sapience (that is close, but still not what I meant) and self-awareness.

I haven't seen you trolling. What you call "provocative posting" I would call "challenging the common-held personal perception". And there are instructions of "one post" and I continuously break it, because my answers are huge. So, no, if someone's breaking decorum here for long posts, it's not you, it's me.

So... the tests are evidently wrong, since they measure not actual animal-intelligence but the problem-solving abilities of dogs. Of course dogs that have it hard would have "trained" themselves to survive in the wild, but that doesn't make them smarter, it makes them better trained for the task-at-hand. Also, natural selection would pretty quickly cut through the dogs that are really stupid \ unable to adapt to living in the wild. It's a bad thing. People should care more about what's good and right than what satisfies their needs. The people that were fighting for my freedom 80 years before were putting "it's right to defend the country" above their personal needs of "not getting shot". And I'm grateful for that and honor their decision. They didn't make serviles without free will in GF4. They made more stupid serviles and more loyal serviles. They didn't eliminate free will. However, if they did manage to make serviles without free will and sentience, and allowed the free willed serviles to "phase out" without any "drastic" measures... The rebellion should still have happened and would still have happened eventually. Even if the Shapers stopped making anything other than Fyoras, Artilae, worms, Kyshaaks, ornks and clawbugs, the rebellion would happen. Why? Because the Shapers were opressive and dictatorial, treating even normal people as a resource. The Shapers decided arbitarily on who was loyal enough to learn what spells. And we have in GF5 that loyal, talented spellcaster that has her requests for more spells turned down on the whims of Shaper Mazran (the Shaper breaking a few dozen shaper laws by making control minds that can shape and giving them command of whole creation batallions instead of immediately turning on Alwan and forcing him to surrender his post as a councilor for losing his mind). And we have the examples of far less loyal mages that get spells because other Shapers are less jealous of the magical potential of the people unlucky enough to be under the boot of the wrong Shaper. I talked to that woman (forget her name, the mage in a Fort). She was in tears when her request was rejected. She wouldn't betray the Shapers. She would still remain in the front lines, fighting, cleaning the lab for passing Shapers to use and not doing her own research on the side (like that guy holed up behind a dozen+ pylons). I am not sure if my leadership wasn't high enough at the time, but I couldn't sway her loyalty even at the face of pure injustice. So, no. Down with the tyrannical Shaper Magocracy. It's not just the liberation of Serviles or defending the right of Drayks to not be killed on sight. It's also about the humans that are reduced to Shaper boot-lickers. Here's something I disagree with both you and the Rebellion: The end doesn't justify the means. And that's my 2 1/2 posts for the time.

I'm against using dogs for experiments despite the dog-hating Owen's mad schemes. "we actually made them stupid so that they can be loyal," We didn't make them stupid, we made them domesticated. Many dog breeds are smarter than wolves I think. "Tell me again that they can't make decisions for themselves and they don't deserve to be free at all." They are not sentient so I don't find it bad to control their fate... as long as we don't kill them or harm them for fun. There are laws in most places (at least in the west) that put strong penalties on those harming dogs and I agree with those laws. "servile is not human" Serviles are lesser than humans, but serviles are sentient. Hence, they should be free. I have a very, very different view on what actually happened. For starters, women were respected 6000-7000 years ago. Then it was male-dominated societies. Then women rights started to be discussed by some "weirdos" in the enlightment, and it was seriously seen as an issue in the late 19th century. So the "things changed to the worse" can't apply here, because there was a pause of several millenia between those two states. "No, they just try to make things right again" Right according to us. I'm pretty sure there are tons of philosophers that could defend why a male-dominated society is better much better than we can defend that's not the case. Again, it comes down to cultural and society opinion. I have several female friends that say "women are below men" and they are angry at feminists for trying to upset the "right" balance. They're too young to have old daughters, but those that have (1-3 years old) daughters show them through example that the woman's place is next to her husband. And I'm talking about women that have finished universities here. One has a MSc degree. She didn't go for a PhD because she believes the husband should be more educated than the woman, although she had an offer of a PhD candidancy. Her boyfriend, a man with a MSc looking for a PhD told her to go for it, that it would be insane to drop her future because of antiquated beliefs. She disagreed. [skipping the whole part about the AI, didn't find the 5-6 words that I read interesting] Wait, what?!? But Footracer (servile) can Shape and the player can take a geneforged servile that can shape! It's never a matter of mental exhaustion when it comes to defending the rebellion! Weeeeeeell... at least in theory I agree that a Rebellion had to happen and all. But the Rebels do a lot of bad things and so far in GF3, playing the game, I haven't found myself in the side of the Rebels quest-wise. Sure I answer "No, we shouldn't work serviles to death because a Shaper requires more crystals". But I haven't been impressed by the madwoman that killed my defenseless friends and the professor that betrayed them to join them... Never mentally taxing to defend the rebellion! And yeap, not beaten. Just other things to do. "Personally, I never really experienced mental exhaustion." Show-off! Your Shaper buddies would vivisect you. Then heal you from the brink of death to vivisect you again the next day. That's what we fighting to stop buddy. Well, not Litalia. She was the worst from the people that removed the control tool. "Try to remain still. You'll be in horrible pain but if you move too much, you'll die." I think they're smarter... Not sure, but around here, wolves are considered dumb and dogs smart. Welcome to the Rebellion. I see that you start to realize why it's wrong to wipe out Gazers\dogs\Drakons\Drayks. And nah, not having the time to post is not the same as defeat. It's "pause" in the battle, not retreat.

God almighty! OK, It's officially too much stuff for me to read. So I'll reply piecemeal and mostly randomly. In a few cases, slavery abolition happened through war. In the vast majority of cases it happened because we could afford it. An emperor in Rome (I don'r recall who) first started giving some rights to slaves. These increased with time and popular opinion was turning against slavery and was frowned upon in medieval Europe ... that happily embraced serfdom instead. Then, during the enlightment slavery was abolished through laws and later constitution in most of Europe, in Brazil and other countries. Womens' rights had a few violent protests but it was mainly a peaceful gradual change from early 20th century to late 20th century for most of the West. So, I dare say that only tyrannies (and fictional oppressive powerhungry magocracies) need to be overthrown with lots of bloodshed. Dingos in Australia, and the dozens of stray dogs, some 3rd generation in the wild, in the rural unsettled parts of Crete would point to different case. The wild dogs the come down from the hills are a slight problem for the farms here. Let me give you the full list of my sources on the matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoples#Slavery Noooope, what I said is more or less: Morality is not set in stone, it evolves and we draw the line arbitarily in a great many things. 1800 years ago, it was acceptable to kill your wife. You could legally do it. 150 years ago it was legal to beat her. 50 years ago it was legal to rape her if you were married. The line has been moved many times. It is arbitary. As for "you don't know how smart they are": Dolphins are very smart in a way (and we give our own definition of intelligence BTW). They're not sentient. As for intelligence: We have arbitarily chosen what we call intelligence. If you put in intelligence things like "perceive electrostatic fields" then sharks suddenly become smarter and humans dumber. If you put "perceive magnetic fields" pigeons become smarter and humans dumber. Yet, we chose to not include these in intelligence. Just because. That's totally fine and acceptable. There are indeed many different moral systems. Tell a Bhudist monk (the people that sweep the path to not step on ants) my opinion on the rights of dogs and he will faint. There are tons of vegetarian people that think it's downright evil to eat animals. Let's talk Hinduists: They prefer to starve (and there are a lot of poor Hinduists) than slaughter one of those free-roaming cows. You see, my morality allows me to tolerate these different viewpoints. However, I cannot tolerate certain things like rape, non-consensual sex (hence I never would do anything with a prostitute since she's not hot for me = rape in my eyes), slavery. The most peculiar thing is that I look down on religious tolerance. Yes, I said I look down on religious tolerance, it's not a typo, you read that well. I also consider elitism wrong since I am also an elitist and I fight hard to contain it and correct it because I consider it a character flaw of mine. No, I don't consider my mild religious intolerance a flaw, I consider it proper knowing fully that 90% of the west disagrees with me. I consider them wrong.

Give me the email of your MSc supervisor, so I can inform him how much free time you have! You're writing a couple 3-page long essays every day on top on finishing 5 games (about 150 hours of playtime even in fast mode, 200 hours usually) in 2 weeks. That clocks at 10 hours of gaming per day! I can't keep up with you buddy. Sorry. I'll try to answer what I can, when I can. I am sure there are a lot of interesting things in your posts, and I'll try to find the time to read them, so don't take this as a rebuttal. I enjoy our discussions. And as one of the few pro-Rebels here, I believe it's important that I stand my ground and address your interesting posts. However, I don't have the time at the time. It'll take me a couple of days before I manage to read and reply to the other thread.

Every SHAPER in that area dies, the "there were no survivors" line = you die too, Rawal dies too, his machinations led to the Shaper empire falling to the last Shaper. It's clear in the opening of the finale that the Shapers LOST the war. It's not some apocalyptic device that blows up the whole mountain in a heroic act. It would have said us that. The way I remember it, the Rebels didn't have much trouble taking him out. Hence, the no survivors line. The REST... when I have time to reply. I don't have the time to read the rest.

And still, they're not sentient. Dolphins may be smarter than us, but they're not sentient either (as far as we know). Sorry to disappoint you buddy, but that's what I believe. Sentience = creature should be free. I find it kind of odd that you care equally about dog rights and servile rights, but never the less it's one of the points we disagree on. Different viewpoint on what's good and proper I guess. Truth be told 200 years ago, it was considered OK for many people to hunt Pygmys in Africa or Aborgines in Australia. Morality changes. What the Shapers do to Serviles would have been considered enlightened in the Roman times ("No Arenas?!"), and normal\benign in the colonies 300-400 years ago. Look buddy, I don't deny that if the Roman Republic or the Persian Empire or certain Greek city states (Sparta comes to mind) could Shape Slaves\Helots, they would be way worse to them than Shapers are. That doesn't excuse the Shapers. We don't live in the 1st century, nor the 16th. I have the moral viewpoint of a Generation X man (pre-milenials). And to my outlook, what the Shapers do is horrific, despite millions of slaves 2000 years ago dreaming for such treatment. First: Dogs may perform similar to 2-years-old, but they're not sentient nor think the same way. Second: Do we allow 2nd year olds to make their own decisions? Nope. Not even 7 year olds. We make all decisions for them ("eat your salad! No you'll go to school! No more icecream! Play where I can see you!") I would dare say the average servile is given more responsibility and can make more decisions in Shaper society than the average 7 years old. And while I don't know whether a 2-years old is sentient, 7 years old certainly are. And I don't mind "oppressing" 7 years old. Then why I disagree with Servile Slavery and oppression? Because Serviles are not 7-year-olds. They are simple-minded in many cases, but they can make their own choices be they good or bad, realize that actions have consequences, realize there is past, present, future, have reasoning abilities (limited or not) and realize their own mortality. Also, Shapers don't keep truly stupid compared to humana serviles as groundkeepers and farmhands for their own good. They make them as such. That can't be true. For starters, I think there are serviles that change sides leaving the Rebels in a couple of missions and you have to save them\take them down. Also, I would also asssume that if Litalia deserted the Rebellion over the Shapers, there would have been several other less fanatic rebels that flipped sides although none comes to mind. Actually, there's one in GF5 that is a leader of some serviles. You find the servile he betrayed in a cell in Alwan's Fort and that traitor servile is outside Gazaki-Uss in a fort. I agree with that. HOWEVER, parts of a belief are right no matter what (there's been very few societies that respect to one's parents is looked down upon, or that love for one's children isn't required, or that harming people without cause is considered good etc). And while I'm not narcissistic enough to believe that my morals and beliefs, my cultural upbringing and all should be brought everywhere, I'm loyal to my beliefs and I do believe some should be enforced no matter what. I act based on them. I judge good\right based on them. I use them for my moral compass. All in all, to bring the previous example in order to avoid bringing politics in this: Slavery is thought as bad in Europe since the middle ages. Yet, there are still cultures that have slavery today (Pygmies are routinely enslaved by Bantu people). I'm pretty sure a Bantu slaver could explain to me his or her point of view and why it's OK to enslave Pygmies. And there are freed Pygmy slaves that return to their former masters, or seek ANOTHER one. That Bantu Slaver would be a good person in other regards. Honorable, loving husband and father, honest, hard-working, etc. In my opinion he still deserves jail despite being a good person and having done nothing wrong according to his cultural upbringing. Would that be "fair" to that nice Bantu person that works his fields, hunts, helps people when he can and is even kind to his slave? It would be, in his mind, exactly the same as if some people with guns and put me to jail because I wear shoes, an act they consider so barbaric and disgusting and reprehensible, that they want me to go to jail for it. That Bantu would be right to feel that way. I still would like him to jail, but for a smaller sentence than say... the people that have been brought up in my culture and still abduct people to use as slaves fully knowing it's bad. Another example, closer to home for most of us would be women's rights in the 19th century. The vast majority of our 8 great-great-grandfathers would consider women voting wrong and women seeking premarital sexual relations as bad and improper. Are they bad people? According to modern morals, yes they are. Your great-great grandfathers would be considered despicable nowdays. But were they bad? Under the late 19th century point of view, hell no. Let's take another example: Anti-monarchism. The vast majority of my country are against monarchy. Yet the (slight) majority of English people are monarchists. Are we treasonous snakes that don't respect the institution of Monarchy? Are the English royalists antiquated royal-bootlickers? No. We have different views on what's proper. And while writting that, I couldn't come up with any negative-associated word that describes royalists\republicans (anti-monarchists, not the USA party). In Greece, calling someone royalist is an insult like calling someone traitor. I guess in monarchy supporting houses calling someone anti-royalist is an insult... like calling someone a traitor.

As someone belonging to a country that has been enslaved by the Turks for 400 years, and rebelling every 20-40 years against them for all those years until, we finally made it during the Greek War of Independence that cost the lives of 1/9 Greeks and left 1/3 of the survivors maimed or wounded, I can tell you that no, that's not true. There's a reason that while Greece is so fertile and has as good climate, we have so lower population density than other European nations. The reason is: those constant rebellion depopulated us. And we kept raising up generation after generation, rebellion after rebellion. There have been over a dozen failed rebellions till we made it. That's how strong the pull is. as for enslaving dogs:They are non-sentient. Nobody complains about the rights of Fyoras or clawbugs and only the most whiny ones mention the Alphas and the Thands. And until that happens, humanity prospers and is richer because of them. And while these may pass away, the ideas some of them have inspired will endure enough for something else to be made until, eventually these ideas are forgotten too. But the results of the forgotten ideas will lead to other ideas.And that leads to progress. That is what progress is. Again, I'll give you an example from our 3600 years of history: Do the Walls of Mycenae still exist? Only as ruins. Do they serve their initial defensive function? Not at all. Dorian Greeks demolished them 3100 years ago. HOWEVER these walls inspired Homer to write his epics. And Homer's epics inspired others. And those others inspired others in turn. So, the ruined walls of Mycenae were not wasted effort, although the Mycenean Greeks found out they were not good enough to protect them, and got kicked out of Peloponessus by the Dorian Greeks. All in all, I see history as a chain of linked events, one leading to the other. The next step starts where the previous one lands.

MODERATORS: TOOK ME THREE POSTS TO PUT THE QUOTES IN PLACE BECAUSE OF QUOTE LIMIT I would call that artistic license as there's no evidence that's true. As you said, the GF5 cutscene is the sorceress that doesn't tie to any game. As for "the intended real character" I don't think there was ever, in the creator's mind, an intended character. "we can safely say the highest possibility does lie in the G3 character turning into G5 one" Not really (see above). It is possible, but it's as possible as GF1 character or GF4 character. PS. GF5 starts 6 years after GF4. Plenty of time for GF4 character to go insane, captured, send to foundry. He attempts to do that, and doesn't go for truce. Once they win, he just had enough killing and lets the very few remnants of the rebellion pass away. " even those rebels he starved, that has a reason too, he wants to scare people off" Yeaaah, that doesn't make it right. It makes it overly despotic and tyrannical. Scaring people to change their opinion is despicable. Litalia does it too in GF3 and he didn't like it one bit. And yet, he uses the same methods. "Prison warden, yes, he better be one, we need one during war times" He's definetely effective. Still doesn't make him a good or admirable person. Tamerlane was an effective and a very good strategist. Many admire his strategy and determination, few are enarmored by his cruelty and the corpses he left behind. It did. His plans are reckless and so desperate that are illegal even in the 10-years-civil war. Einstein's definition of insanity fits well here: Doing the same thing over and over (hire Geneforged individuals, Control Core A,B,C) and expect different results. So nope, he's mad and desperate. "any other person might have broken down and started revenge long ago" He started his revenge in GF3 when we go around and kill stuff. And he never stopped seeking revenge for that (and I don't blame him for seeking revenge) " took all hate down inside and accepted it." No, he didn't. In all endings but his, it's clear that he never accepts it. The finale says that he prefers to expire than accept it. That was terrible. If you recall (you said you played the game in fast-forward so to speak), there's one of the few love-couples in that Fort. The pretty shopkeeper that says her presence is the only thing that keeps the commander's sanity in place.And I had them killed by treachery. I am not proud of that... Again, I never said the Rebels (including Astoria) are good. I said they're the better choice and while many of their leaders are despicable (Ghaldring) the lower ranks fight for a better future. Oh, and if you recall from GF4's endings the human and servile rebels protest to the use of Unbound as terror weapons. About the rails question: Yes, I have heard it and yes, I agree that the right answer is to not push one person on the rails. HOWEVER, the situation here is this: Push 3 people on the rails and stop the train from killing 50 people or pushing 12 people on the rails, so that the train would kill them and 100 people and then get in a loop that would go on killing people for years. There is, frankly, no good answer. So I chose to push the smaller number of people that would thankfully lead to the less people being killed in the future. Which I didn't know when I let the Fort be destroyed and I was very, VERY worried that Ghaldring would win and that I have pushed those 3 people on the rails just to put a Shaper-with-claws on top of a new pyramid. (Ghaldring's faction is not better than the Shapers, he's as tyrannical). First, as long as you admit that the Shaper side is the Villain side, we're in agreement. Second, my good man! Offended over the politics of a game?! I don't get offended by different poltical opinions about my country with friends, let alone a game! Never played the Avadon Series. Also, I avoided to read GF1-GF2 parts of your ever-growing essays since I plan to play them eventually. That the geneforges are wrong, doesn't mean that everything the Rebels fought for (more equality, freedom for the serviles, greater respect for creations, rights of creations, overturning the despotic Shaper magocracy) was wrong. And without the Geneforges, or, I'll say it, without the Unbound, the Rebellion wouldn't have won. It doesn't excuse the use of mass murdering mad creations (The end doesn't justify the means), but it did led to a brighter future. Actually the only possible good influence of the war is the overthrown of the Shaper Empire with much of the Shaper Law (no self-shaping) remaining in Sucia nation. Yes, but this time, there are TWO shaping nations. The Shapers can't just steamroll non-Shaping nations in their empire as the Sucia Nation has Shaping. And the Sucia Nation gave over the geneforges, so they can't insta-make Lifecrafters. Within a generation, these two nations will be in equilibrium and it would be hard for either one to eliminate the other. It may happen in the future but for the time, the next 40-50 years seem to be years of recovery and tolerance.

Ahem, They turn to a geneforged mass murderer in GF5 and a geneforged rebel in GF4. Noooope, evidently they're recruiting way worse people than an opportunist mercenary that plays a bit to the hopes of an amnesiac for a little money. Frankly, the Rebellion and the Shapers employ much, much, much worse than Denna. She insults me since she targets me for her trick, but a con-artist is nowhere near as bad as people that kill others for gain like aaaaall the bandits do, and the opportunists in both sides of the war do. No objection from me here. Litalia does the worse crimes with the least justification in GF5. She literally goes 150% terrorist to break the spirit of everyone. Then she turns against Ghaldring that she herself accepts spent the best years of her life with. And I remind you that once the lab-Drakon (forget her name) suggested to Ghaldring to kill Litalia for deserting the Rebellion, Ghaldring threatened to kill the Drakon if she said that again. So the lab-Drakon has to turn to you to eliminate Litalia, secretly. Oh, and about the peaceful Trakovites: I've never thought I'll see a Trakovite lair full of controlled creations. Arrays of Turrets, a dozen 5th tier Creations around Litalia... that's not a Trakovite lair, however Litalia tries to spin it as "my convictions are pure, even if I am not". Ahh... here we are with the rosed-tinted glasses. You refuse to see his flaws even though they're pressed in your path. I'll indulge you. "shapers are not really just maniacs who want all rebels go extinct", not all Shapers (there's that Turret guy in the Western border). But Alwan certainly. From GF3 onwards he wants to see Rebels extinct with such passion that he keeps himself around in a painful existance and expires in order to not accept truce. "On the surface he fights the war, in secret he tries to achieve peace " Nope. Unless you found something that I didn't, that "Secret" part is in my opinion, your hopes for him, although there's plenty of evidence to the contrary (see above) "Moseh and his friends aren't died yet at that time; he's not necromantic as long as he still lives at all" I didn't see that definition, and Moseh is stuck in a crystal, half-person, half magical machine, existing by drawing the lifeforce of others. That's necromancy in my book, and Moseh and Alwan accept that such things are illegal. "(falsely) believe they will later be removed and send back to normal life " Not Falselsy. Everyone in GF4 tells you that's the plan and Alwan's lackey Crowly gets royally pissed if you kill Moseh instead of "fixing" him. It's actually not bad for Alwan to hope he could repair his illegally altered followers. However, there is talk that they would have to face the music for their crimes a sacrifice they're willing to risk. "And isn't servant mind a species that is allowed the rights to control creatures from the very beginning? ... That sounds 100% legal to me." That it happened in Succia (like the geneforge and the canisters) doesn't make it legal. The minds themselves tell you that they're illegal creations and they're not the default servant mind. " it's legal to recruit help from enemies during war time ... Alwan didn't break anything in here" Alwan's and Crowly's crime is not hiring help from the Rebels. It's teaching a geneforged monster like the player Shaping and allowing "it" to exist. Moseh is most eloquent about that. When he, stuck with crystals, sucking life from serviles, bloated and without a lower body calls you "Abomination!" because ... you had the ability to Shape Fyoras and cast Firebolt shaped in you. Your Shaper trainers mention that many times in GF4 and GF5. Oh, and guess for whom Shaper Alexie, the Shaper that can shape Drayks works for. That's right. Alwan. For the intelligent Ornk in GF5, yes it is. Rose-tinted glasses again... My grandfather was a soldier during the Nurember Trials. Several SS made the same argument about executing Jews\gays\communists\gypsies during the Holocaust. They still got executed. A lot of stuff here.Yes, according to the Law they should be executed for their dangerous beliefs. The Law is tyrannical and wrong. No, suspition of being Trakovite in GF4 is enough to get someone killed (check Dillame again). The Trakovites in GF4 are not organized, they're individuals. So the Shapers don't "infiltrate" them. They listen something they don't like, they grab the person and let him to die publicly from starvation. Same in GF5 as you're told in Perikalia from people suspitious of any talk that sounds Trakovite. "they claim to be peaceful but so few are ever captured" That's because they're few, not because they fight to the death. Most Trakovites you meet are normal people (a tavernkeeper, a scout, etc) that don't have a chance to resist. Also, the law is that arrested Trakovites will die horribly by starvation; I wouldn't blame the ones that can fight for doing so. As for the not very helpful to the Shapers to go for insane cruelty and oppression against the Trakovites even when it's not beneficial... that's the Shapers for you buddy. It's why they have to be overthrown. In GF5 Alwan spends LOTS of resourses to have Trakovites in his lands arrested and killed, in the midst of the war. That's how determined he is to silence any voice that doesn't praise his ilk. "There's one rescued surviver in G5, I think, and he's not dead, just broken." He's broken from the torture, the other Trakovites saved him, but not before the torture broke his mind. No, the Shapers didn't let him live after torturing him enough to lose his sanity. They would have killed him if the others didn't save him. "As for the starved rebels in G4, it's cruel, but executing them is also legal. " Yes, but Trakovites are not really rebels. Voicing doubt (not rejection, doubt) that Shaping is da-best, lands you in the cage. "shapers at least don't kill pure innocents" They do kill pure innocents when they take back cities. In GF5, you don't see it cause the Shapers are on the defensive. But yes, Rebels are more reckless. Because of the Unbound. And if we go to GF3, the Rebels are inexcusably targeting civilians to cause them to rebel. Warcrime. Never said the Rebels are perfect; they're just better than the Shapers.

In the real war, they hesitate because they're losing. Not because they care about casualties. In Ghaldring's missions you take out the 4 councilors and the Shapers STILL refuse to talk with mere creations. Even Ghaldring is surprised. They try to assassinate Astoria because she accepted the inevitable after 10 years of war. And from what Litalia told me: She personally wiped out most of the Creations in Drypeaks before Ghaldring changed her affiliation to the Rebellion. OK, perhaps there were a couple more Shapers, but certainly not a big force. What makes you think that the Shapers would require a huge army to defeat the Creations in Ashen Isles if they HADN'T turned Terrestia to a battleground for 4 years in GF4? And for all the might of the Drakons and the suprise attacks and all, the rebellion would have been crushed without the Unbound. That was what put the Shapers on the run and gave time to the Rebels to repopulate their ranks. No, the Shapers by the ending of GF4 had enough for the time. The Ashen Isles would have fallen within a decade. They actually would not. They didn't accept even the idea of peace with creations (Except for Astoria) 6 years later and with a stream of Unbound knocking their doors. They do in the bridge of the Dera Reaches and you haven't been gone as long as the other lackey you're tasked to kill because he escaped Rawal's reach. That he may not be a threat to you, doesn't make the act of planting the means to insta-kill you and bully you any less insulting or any more forgivable. Rawal is the definition of honorless... he betrays the Shaper Council for personal gain (unlike Astoria that does it for peace), refuses to fight in the war, sabotages the war effort... to the point that if you do Rawal's ending, the war is lost because of his actions. And he is definetelly not a Shaper, despite having a seat at the council! While others don't know it, you do: He has a geneforge in his basement, works to unlock the secret of cannisters and uses them to give powers to his followers (including Footracer, the shaping Servile). He's exactly like the Rebels but he uses the Rebellion's tools not to liberate Serviles and overthrow the Shaper Tyranny, but to gain more power. All the bad things you say about the Rebels? Rawal has them. And Unlike Ghaldring that does more or less the same, he doesn't have the excuse of his race being targeted for extinction. And Ghaldring fights while Rawal hides. The biggest plot-hole in the game IMO, is that there's no option to tell Alwan or Astoria "and you know what? Rawal, your buddy, has a geneforge in his lab and uses it to give power to his servants". Or just say it in the COUNCIL when you talk to them, presenting the shriveled control tool. Not when you meet Mekhen. All these are Shaper creations, dangerous Shaper creations brought to the Foundry for experimentation and they broke free because of the Presence. All those things you see and fight in the first chapter are Shaper Creations.

And that difference, sentience, feelings, is all the difference required to justify the liberation of Serviles. We don't turn weaker or mentally challenged people to slaves. And we shouldn't. As Shapers shouldn't enslave Serviles. And humans are a danger to Gazer society. So, why are we right and them wrong? Morally you can't find a divide. You have to go to "them vs us" to justify attacking them. Also, " in shaper and in real world just because it happens, doesn't make it right, your job as an individual is not to accept the evils of society but to try to change them however you can " Welcome to the Rebellion!

O_O I hate you now... Haven't managed to finish GF3 yet, took me 2-3 less busy months to finish GF4, 3-4 to finish GF5 +1 month to get all endings but Taygen's. I'll read the rest of your reply later, when I overcome the shock and grief of people still being able to do game marathons.

Well, to be sincere, the Gazers have a right to exist, to a privilege to exist. If every last Gazer is attacking other people, then let them be extinct. "Not judge them as a whole but individually" is what I'm suggesting. If they can't survive individually that's their problem.

CONTINUE CAUSE THERE'S A QUOTE LIMIT AND I'VE REACHED IT (so please dear moderators, don't admonish me for double posting. ) Well, he did his fair share of warcrimes. I think the millions of the world deserve a better fate despite the inconvenience that would bring to a fanatic. Alwan doesn't fight to save the world, but to save the oppressive Shaper Order and if he has to scorch everything to do it, he would (as he does in GF4). He doesn't fight to stop the bloodshed, but to crush underfoot everyone (Trakovites, human rebels, serviles) that doesn't bow down and kisses Shaper boots. He fights against independence thinking. He fights against freedom. He clearly and admittedly supports Shaper Tyranny. He is the prison warden of Terrestia. Sure, he didn't do unnecessary massacres. He didn't use terror tactics. But that's not enough to redeem a general fighting for a Tyrannical state. The bar is not as low as to say "he didn't commit genocide, he's OK". He is not. All the time. He's sustained by magic, alcohol, determination... and hate. I 100% believe that's Astoria. Allied with the moderate rebels, killed Ghaldring. Betrayed the Shapers (She's a rebel after all) but stopped the war. That applies equally to the Shapers... And unlike the majority of the rank-and-file Rebels that fight for a better future, the Shapers fight (at least partially) to keep their privileges. No, I side with Greta. At every ending of GF5, Greta is validated. For her desperation to stop Taygen from obliterating civilization as we know it, or from Alwan to crush every independent-thinking person, human, creation or servile, to abandoning Ghaldring at the right time. AND THE IMPORTANT STUFF Welcome to the forums! We disagree (as you see) but that doesn't stop me from being happy that one more person enjoyed this awesome series to the point of writing a 3-page essay supporting a fictional side in a fictional war.

Interestin. Let me give my opinion on your post Piece by piece Of course, since they have feelings.I Skipped GF2 and GF3 since I haven't finished them and I assume there would be spoilers. GF4: No, the Shapers believe that as they plan to exterminate every Drayk, Drakon and Gazer in existence and every Servile that hesitates to obey their commands or dreams of a better future than unending slavery. The Rebels are forced to resort to such tactics because the Shapers are more powerful. Asymmetric warfare. The Shapers are not going to tolerate the Ashen Isles and that's told in the Shaper ending of GF4. The war was about freedom. The humans in Terrestia had the role of 2nd class citizens in the Shaper Magocracy while the Serviles were enslaved. Humans and Serviles deserved freedom. There were Gazers, Drayks and Drakons in Terrestia that would have been decimated for the crime of existing unless they crushed the Shapers. Also, unless the Rebels attacked, and hard, the Shaper mainland their puny base in the Ashen Islands would have been quickly overun. Going back to the Drayks, Drakons and Gazers that were condemned for the crime of existing, the ones in the Drypeaks would face great danger trying to escape to the Ashen Islands. Even with the Great Rebelion being initially so successful, the surviving creations have trouble reaching the Ashen Isles. Think what would happen if the Rebellion HAD NOT taken root. It would be next to impossible. And of course, GF4 has my favorite ending: High Trakovite one. 100 Unbound, enough to crush the Shaper forces but the machinery destroyed. The Rebellion is saved and the power-crazy faction of the Drakons is forced to share power and not make more. GF5 Well, he does send his lackeys to manipulate your control tool. You kinda forgot the control tool he placed on you to make sure he will forever hold your life in his hands. And he totally knows he can't help you find your identity as he says in his diary and when you confront him. As a note, one lackey, in Dera Reaches bridge, tries to kill you once you tell him to Buzz off telling you that these are his orders and that he knows you'll kill him but he has no choice. Did Mekhen lie to you? No, she just didn't tell you all the truth. Are the tactics the Rebels used underhanded? Certainly. But the Shapers are not better. A faction of the rebels makes shredbugs, a faction of the Shapers makes the Purity Agent. Both are guilty of Bioterrorism. Massacres? Both sides do them. Denna is not a rebel, she's a merc that has been hired by the rebels and she's clear about it. True enough but "you" made them anyways. So "we" fight for their right to exist and their freedom. PS. As you clearly identify with the Shapers there, I clearly identify with the rebels. The way I see it, while you see just 3 Shapers there with Astoria, there have been dozens involved. The fight outside is endless. Creations join at all times. There are creations in Gazaki-Uss that Shapers made and the commander expects the order from those Shapers. Inner Gazaki Uss has a dozen creations "parked" in siderooms that other Shapers made before they died. After the battle Guardians and the Shaper army clear the city from strugglers. And of course, you. A character that by that time, could take two Unbound together. A Hardcore Shaper that embodies most of what people despise about the Shapers but also has managed to break more Shaper Laws than any other loyalist while holding Shaper law Sacred. He commissions Creations that can Shape and creations that can control creations (Control Core A). When they go rogue? He commissions new ones (Control Core B ). Unsurprisingly, they also go rogue and you have to clean them up. And there's hints he may create Control Core C because third time's the charm, right? In GF4, He also tolerates creations that can Shape (Shaftoe's minds). And he also breaks the one law Rebels didn't: Necromancy. Moseh is pure necromantic abomination, that uses the lifeforce of friends and enemies to sustain himself. And let's not discuss all the weird untested monsters that Alwan allows his lackeys to throw in the borders, the pre-line wall of creations in GF4. And unsurprisingly, things go weird in that wall of monsters and the player has to clean up. Did I mention that in GF4 Alwan breaks a couple dozen laws and trusts a geneforged individual? And when that fails and Alwan is nearly killed... he trusts the next geneforged individual in GF5, which he knows was mad as heck a few years ago. Alwan the loyalist breaks more Shaper Laws than Greta the rebel general. (Greta doesn't create creations that can create nor creates monsters sustained by necromancy). He is extreme. Creating Control Core A,B (and perhaps C) is extreme. Creating Moseh is extreme. Allowing Saftoe to split his mind and create A shaftoe-Control-Core is extreme. Also, Trakovites. In GF4 and GF5, Trakovites are executed (by Alwan's loyalists) for the crime of doubting the wisdom of Shaping. In GF4, there is the example of a character branded Trakovite for doubting the wisdom of Shaping and whether it's moral. NOT denying it, not violently resisting it. For just saying that perhaps it creates more problems than it solves. And how are such terrible criminals, that dare to have doubts about the system punished? They're put in cages in the plaza to starve to death. For just thinking the Shaper way may not be the best. No my friend, That is also extreme and actions like that explain why the human side of the rebellion fights the Shapers to the death. Why Shapers have to be overthrown. Huh? They are both male. Or Male\female. Or GF5 character is a servile... First, the canon ending of GF5 and GF4 are not clear whether the "nameless Shaper" was pro-rebel or pro-Shaper. Since the isles fell and Litalia is around, I would go with that but... GF5 character could be your GF4 character (since he can be a servile). Or your GF1 character. Or the Monarch.

Episode 79: Starting the episode, hearing you saying you would love to make another gazer. Next 10 seconds your gazer dies (alhoon at that, but I didn't like that alhoon too much so... ) I am sure there was artifact materials there. Did you find it and I forgot perhaps? Or you missed it? Oh well, doesn't matter anyway now. About Control Mind Alpha's prediction that the Shapers would create a third mind that can shape and control creations, after the first two went rogue. Let's hope its wrong. Taygen rant: See? Even the random unfriendly sergeant on the border, an outsider loyalist calls Taygen mad. When you were considering whether to tell Gusta (The Rawal controlled soldier) to F-off and said "he may attack me..." I laughed. You have two gazers, a wartrall and you've wiped out a nest of Unbound 10 levels ago. I think you would have little trouble with a guard. About the attack on the bridge: This battle was absolutelly horrible. I wish I could have speeded it up. They could have just waves spawning and waves of guards spawning. Having like 50 NPCs taking actions? OMG.

It is exploitation of Gazers... unless they take over the world. As I said, I'm not that life-craftery. But, they have a good chance to do it.

That's fine if it comes to that, but I expect they would adapt.Also, I have a different opinion on Gazers. Yes, they are paid to take important parts in the rebellion but there are lots that just want to be left alone. I am all for preferential treatment towards sentient creatures. Because they would make Drakons lizard-equivalen-of-sweat. Yes, Gazerforged Eyebeasts would be hilariously insane. As such, like the Unbound they would be culled sooner than later. But man, while Shapers would go gaga and attack them, several would make a tenuous alliance with the Drakons. And because of their lower number and insanity (They are quite open to attacking one another I think) they would be the first major side to drop. But they would take a lot of Shapers with them. And a good chunk of Drakons. Thus weaking both the ####### parts of the equation leaving more power to the Servile and Human side. And most importantly: Drakons would realize the dangers of "spam shaping persons as fast as needed". They would realize that they are not the top dogs by default. They would better appreciate the dangers of Shaping. It took Monarch for Litalia to realize the danger of throwing spawners all around. Drakons were too far to appreciate it. Gazerforge would help convince Drakons that geneforges are dangerous since they controlled the Unbound. OR: It could backfire and Gazers would become Monarch-spawning-Monarchs before the world could stop them. Gazerforce 6: Oblivion.

I disagree that because SOME have tendency towards megalomania it is reason enough to wipe them out on sight.