alhoon

You can always join and then get out of his faction... Also the Shapers don't know probably that Litalia leads the Trakovites. And given Alwan's kinda insane obsession that turned pacifist Philosophy to Litalia's playground fanatics, I believe it's an omission that you don't get to say the line "Guess WHO leads the Trakovites! I infiltrated the sect making them trust me. I am ready to betray them for money now, since they can't train me in Shaping."

A variation of the following for the zones you're interested at: Go to zXXname.txt variables; sort num=9 //////// LATER AT THE INIT STATE, give the bonus based on a "do I have a PC made Vlish in the party? flag beginstate INIT_STATE; While (num<9) { if (creature_type(num) == 90) { sf(95,0,1); // Just a random unused flag. } num=num+1; } if (gf(95,0)==1) { While (num<9) { set_attack_bonus(num,1); num=num+1; } } //////// LATER AT THE EXIT STATE, revert to 0 bonuses beginstate EXIT_STATE; if (gf(95,0)==1) { While (num<9) { set_attack_bonus(num,0); sf(95,0,0); num=num+1; } }

I'll reply to that in the script thread. Let's keep that to bash Litalia, which I agree is attracted to raw power and canister abuse.

Well, when the appearance is a 12 foot tall upright lizard, I do. We don't even know how Drakons reproduce BTW. I think it is mentioned that Drayks have eggs although I am not sure. Something in GF4. Let me twist it a bit. What if Litalia was attracted to a sentient Vlish? Would you consider that non-perverse?

With cheats, everything's possible. If you are willing to use a bit of script in the files, it's also very easy. You could script the game to kill Ghaldring within a few seconds of stepping into the room.

Meh, my bad then

Unless I am not mistaken the hint about Taygen is that if rogues get close to him, he would retreat to the Spire or something, and unless I am mistaken there's a bunch of creations in a corridor near him in his throne room. Perhaps those can be used to spook Taygen off?

Of course I don't consider half-elves perverse! Elves are nice looking. They are "human-like" enough. I don't know about many of the STrek things, but Half-Vulcans are OK-ish in my book, half-Klingons are not. About the parallel with homophobia... I really don't see it at all, let alone "pretty clearly". It seems to me as a huge leap of logic. Back to Litalia: I am not sure she's mentally able to give consent. She's bat-crazy.

(Clearly I intend those in a lighthearted manner, although I do believe those things) - Litalia is not able to understand her own choices as shown in her changing sides several times + "Unbound are awesome!"\"oh crap, I'll leave the Rebellion over the Unbound (that I helped create)", "Canisteeeers!"\"I am shaping myself to deshape myself", "Control tool are awesome"\"They are flawed", more things. - In my opinion romantic attraction between a human and a 12' tall upright reptilian creature (inter-species attraction, not inter-racial) is perverse, not unusual. You said it yourself " their own attractions to other humans...". Drakons are not humans. Apes are closer to humans than Drakons. In more serious note: I believe there are some hints about Litalia's unnatural romantic attraction to Ghaldring from what I've seen in GF5 in her story and her ending if we add it on what Litalia says about the Drakons in GF3 (to the point I am now, early 3rd island). I completely agree and admit that I pulled and twisted what was presented in the games to present Litalia in yet more bad light.

To be more precise we are kinkshaming Ghaldring. It's as perverse for him as for Litalia. But Litalia is attracted to essence and is bat-crazy. Ghaldring is supposed to be the most reasonable of the two. SHAME on him.

Yes, I can add script codes for the player to tell Alwan many many bad things about Rawal. But they would amount to nothing, unless I can find what causes Rawal to fall from grace in the finale text. Yes, it would kick the player out of Rawal's path and the rewards it gives. But the player can always choose to not give Alwan the tons of incriminating evidence against Rawal and keep getting paid or go forth with it. At the time, there is no option to betray Rawal. I know I can't edit or change the ending text, so Rawal can't be expelled by the Shapers, killed or executed. But there is text of him being set aside with minimized influence. At the time we guess it is tied to whether Greta died (?!?) and whether Astoria wins.

Of course if you tell Alwan you stole his things he would get angry. But NOT stealing the tome and telling Alwan "I was told to steal a tome on canisters that not even you remembered you have, but I didn't" will make him believe you that you were told so by Rawal. And destroy the tome. Then pointing out to that mage in Perikalia that -another- illegally shaped fellow is in the park (the Rawal servant with the magic by canisters) and having her arrest him or telling Alwan would give Alwan all the proof he needs to go to the council. That servant of Rawal was not a geneforged freak to start with. He placed a control tool and gave canisters to an outsider human, not "illegal creation" thus turning him to illegal creation. And he keeps canisters in the repository that Alwan, if he moves fast, may secure as proof before he points the finger. Alwan is the guy that spends resources to track Trakovites that were mostly peaceful. Would he risk Rawal using the Shapers resources AND the Rebellions tools to overthrow the Shapers after the war? Cause that's would not be impossible with Rawal conserving his power and building canisters, geneforges etc. OK, he doesn't do it in the ending, but would it be a hard leap to imagine?

LOOOOOOOOL! That Rascal! There are ways that Rawal gets at least disgraced. I have read that somewhere that he may even lose his seat in the council. I want to make it happen since it's already there. It probably relies on some parameters of what you did in game.

Bug NOT found: Nope, I didn't have that bug. Cursor was OK. Changed the Paralyzing blade. Actually removed it and replaced it with a "commander's sword". Stunlocking a boss would be, in my opinion, too powerful. Since in the warrior mod I have used a few bosses, I think that blade would make them boring. Other thing: I cannot, for the life of me, find what should be changed mod-wise to make Rawal disgraced in the finale. I don't know which flags control it. I would really like to add a couple of quests that would lead to Rawal being set aside instead of "You tried that thinking it would lower Rawal's influence. It didn't work" For example, if you work for say Alwan. Respected Alwan that trusts you. I want an option to tell him "Rawal has a Geneforge! He also wanted the book to study how to make Canisters that you have!" and Alwan taking me seriously and that affecting Rawal's standing after the finale instead of a lame answer "I investigated your earlier accusations. Rawal the weasel blocked my efforts and I have to focus on the war."

I think of some, but they (thankfully) cannot be posted in a family-friendly forum. Except the... veiled hints she had a crush on a big reptilian creature. In GF3 she clearly states she serves the Drakons although not as an equal. In GF4 though she is the head of the human side and at least considers herself equal to Ghaldring. In GF5 she cries once Ghaldring is killed and, crazy #### like she is, also says the chains are finally broken. Add on that that Ghaldring went out of his way to make sure no Drakon would harm Litalia. And that Litalia had nearly completed her genocide (or so she claims) before Ghaldring convinced her to just change the side she wipes out of existence and nowhere does she or Ghaldring mention Litalia was losing the battle with Ghaldring. It seemed as if she was winning. Those hints that Litalia was as sick and canister-blind as to be romantically attracted to a big upright lizard because of the power it radiates, was in the game although it could well be my sick imagination and Litalia-bias. The kind of "Since Litalia mentions it, let's take it the worse possible way!"

Back to what I think of Litalia, something more I found out: Litalia was the first to design control tools like the ones Rawal has made. She didn't like the idea not because it is downright evil, but because it may get your best tools (i.e. people working for you) killed before their time. So, I think we're back to "I didn't see any atrocity or crime in GF that Litalia hasn't commit already"

We see the patchworks mainly in Rawal's lands. They are an ugly creation that aside of being ugly seems to be as effective as a powerful plated clawbug \ battle beta or something. They are melee creatons with a few extra action points. Key here? They are encountered mainly in Rawal's lands. There are some patchworks with the Gazer hiding in the passage that leads to the citadel (or something similar). And there are patchworks along with... the Unbound. How on earth Unbound got hold of Patchworks? Why didn't they eat them? If they can shape them... who taught them to shape patchworks.

Oh...

A moment there! I didn't say that Alwan is a complete hypocrite that deserves death or something. I said he's far from Orthodoxy despite what he says. He's "Shapers will win, no matter what" and does some seriously anti-Shapery things (and knows it). Of course he's not close to Taygen or Rawal! Never said he is. Rawal is as far from Shaper Orthodoxy as Litalia (OK, exaggeration but not many orders of magnitude; he built a freaking geneforge and wants to make canisters for self-shape). Taygen... is shaping diseases illegal? Even if it is not illegal (which I think it is) his plan is to eradicate every Shaped thing down to living tools and Ornks. I don't even know HOW he got to infect living tools, but he did. Strange that DOOR mechanisms died BTW and Drakons didn't. I mean... what kind of cosmic irony is that? "Tharsak-Hirn survived commander, weakened but alive!" "Don't worry. He's permanently locked in his lab cause the door died. Let the abomination die slowly of starvation" However, this is not true in my opinion. Alwan breaks most of the rules. Moseh self-shapes to a monster that feeds by drawing lives from others. In GF4 some of his guys throw out untested things in the "wall" that keeps the Rebels in. He creates creations that can control creations (and even Shape). He orders people to teach outsiders about Shaping. He works with Geneforged individuals... How are those Shaper views or traditional views on Shaping and creations? I remind you that the character in GF4 is referred to as a Creation. I laughed my butt off when MOSEH of all people called me an illegal abomination, as he stood there having shaped himself in crystals, after finishing siphoning out the life of captives. That guardian that blackmails you in the beginning, that makes clear you are illegal but if you prove very useful and save thousands of lives by betraying the rebels and helping them destroy the Geneforge, they may, may allow you to live in prison, is one. That obnoxious agent in GF5 that adamantly refuses to teach you and hunts rebels and trakovites in Rawal's city is another (although we didn't see ALL of her beliefs, many came up). And then, are the people that we don't know if they hold true to all Shaper law things, like Taygen's guardian that dislikes absorbing creations but doesn't actually want to discuss it with outsiders (I think he refuses to train you too BTW) and the Smith that said "HELL NO" and left the order to become a smith, instead of betraying his beliefs and absorb creations. (He doesn't teach you, he doesn't absorb creaions but Although we don't know how he feels about other things) Giving to those the benefit of Doubt, they are traditional. Oh, and the nice turret making guy in GF5. Although he is TOO traditional when it comes to new Creations. You ol' G1-2 people would probably call him "pre-war cautious" as he takes veeeery much attention and care as he tries to improve Turrets. Come-on buddy... if so many people have sent Fyoras with aura attacks or exploding thands to the Foundry... can't you just speed it up? There's a damn war and the enemy is at the gates. You make Turrets to guard the gates. Make them. Channel your inner Alwan and disregard Shaper cautiousness. (That's the first step to turn someone to the rebellion. As they start moving away from their morals, you slip them a canister saying that it would do much to help, save time and lives, one canister can barely be detected. Bring up Rawal the councilor's prediction it won't be illegal for long. Then Throw a Drakon or Gazer nearby so that he's more tempted and you take him down the path) Carnelian of the Carnelian gloves?! He/She/It exists? In GF2?! Can someone please offer Jeff a lot of money to remake that sooner than later? How did that person's gloves end up in the Ashen isles? I think a scout had them.

THAT many?!? I assumed there would be like 5 Shapers in GF2... You all picked my curiosity about it. I think BTW that Shaper loyalty truth is between Triumph's take and Shapers' take: Not as bad as Triumph claims IMO, certainly not near-total control as the Shapers think. BTW, out of the 4 Shaper Councils in GF5: - One is breaking about as many rules as the Rebellion (Rawal) - One is allied with well known rebels and kinda leads a rebel faction (Astoria) - One is a loyalist to the Shaper law ... that bends said law and keeps trying the same tricks despite they failed before (Alwan) - One is a hateful coward madman that wants to hit reset and send civilization back to the dark ages (Taygen) I wouldn't say the trend of "Shapers are their own undoing" is ever away or "Shaper traditionalists are the vastly common". Even with those we do interact and seem fine we have little interaction. Is that Guardian working under Taygen really close to tradition? Or he's disgusted with just Taygen's departure from tradition (destroying loyal creations) but would have no problem say... self-Shaping? We never had the chance to discuss it. How about that Agent prison warden in Alwan's fort? What's her take on re-absorbing loyal creations? Or outsiders having access to non-Shaping magic? We never know. We DO meet a lot that display departure from the Laws. That doesn't mean the rest follow it well. Ahem, "Law or death!" Alwan has creations that can command other Creations, has allowed Moseh to exist, actually he gave the order for Moseh to exist and there's a strong possibility he gave the get go for creations that can Shape, at least in Control Core A even if not Control Core B. He also has worked with Geneforged freaks that according to law should be put down immediately twice or thrice if you count GF4. In GF3, he doesn't sweat it when I use Canisters and is angry if I pass them to Lankan but not just because of the Self-Shaping but also because... Lankan defied the Shapers. And if you want to be literal? I have talked to Alwan with Drayks, Gazers and Drakons in the room. Not a word of protest. And it's not hard to put a script command there to say "Alwan looks at your forbidden Creations and frowns. He doesn't approve.". I dare say it's not that hard to put a script command that if a Drakon, Gazer or Drayk is within the same room with Alwan he would turn hostile. He is not a sincere traditionalist, he's a Shaper-Supremacy guy whatever laws he has to break. Astoria? Eh... reform is not traditional for Shapers. Shaper reformers are an anathema, so Shapers send assassins after her.

I actually think the Shapers don't promise stuff 30% because they want when they say something, for that something to happen and ... 70% because they don't give a damn about the pesky outsiders beyond the confines of the law. In GF5, the Hall-of-Appeals agent is really annoyed that she has to spent a few hours talking to those pesky outsiders and most towns have people (forget their names) that act as intermediaries between the Shapers and the people. There's one such woman in Perikalia that gives you quests if you're loyal.

I would disagree about Astoria. She's willing to give the world a chance and there's no way a war in a generation would be as bad as this one because Ghaldring would be dead and with Sucia nation free, there won't be that much hate between creations - Shapers to fuel such a terrible war. So, no, I don't think Astoria sets up the world for a worse war. In the Shadow road, she has her covert operators manage it (Greta) and it's the Drakons that betray her. The Unbound in her area are because she couldn't dislodge them from the swamps and the rebels have stopped sending more to her as we can see in the Fens where a huge rebel army + 4 Unbound are sitting nicely sipping tea. Alwan's area has few Unbound because... he kills them. If I recall, it's an Unbound that brings down Rockfall fort once you show them the way. And showing them the way is no "small gesture of goodwill". Astoria thanks to the anti-Ghaldring Drakon shatters the line and takes down one of the 6 major military installations of Alwan's area. About Kaz, Ghaldring mentions that Kaz people are friends of the Drakons, unlike Penta. I don't recall the servile that was allowed to return, but I do remember the mind-altered Servile Alwan has in his employ in GF4 and the one that they have broken in GF5. I.e. I don't remember Alwan (a guy willing to work with geneforged "freaks") allowing serviles to return as much as condemning them to a fate worse than death: slavery and personality-wipe. The Rebel trainer is actually a step down from Alwan's prefered defector: The player. It's not out of pity they do that; they want spies and want them badly. Every military would do that. Also the traitor rebel is normal human. Not creation, not lifecrafter. And he asked too damn much to train me in missiles! Yes, but at least we have seen ex-Shapers joining and actually leading the Rebellion. The Drakons, yes the Drakons, gave Litalia and Greta the chance to raise to the top of the Hierarchy. They take that cannister-junky creepy Jarred as their own... or that's what he thinks although I think he's mistaken. Ghaldring doesn't want to sue for peace. There are Drakons (like the annoying one hiding from Unbound in Taygen's area and the one hiding in that cave) that want to sue for peace. And of course, there's also Greta that works with Astoria to bring the peace. You have to kill the madman (ok Madrakon) in charge and break his forces and influence and then convince an army that has been mostly victorious for 4 years to stop advancing. Since that's hard... it's easier to wipe a good part of the Rebellion while killing Ghaldring so that both sides are unsure of their victory and with the hardcore "death to us or them, no peace" factions weakened, pro-peace voices to prevail. Which happens. So, Astoria had the insight to break the hardcore Shapers (Alwan, Taygen) and hardcore Rebels (Ghaldring).

Well, I was referring to the G4 part though and GF3 first half (or 1/3rd most probably), as I said in my post. Weren't GF1-2 decades before the great rebellion?

The theme in GF4 though was that the human lifecrafters have been nearly wiped out and the Drakons refused to make any more. The canister-junky lifecrafter, Greta and the character are the human lifecrafters we see. There are not many off-screen I think. Shapers didn't defect usually. They were promoted for loyalty. I don't expect there was a large number of Shaper defectors. Khyrik in GF4 counts as a rebel (Even if just rebel of conscience), although he's not a member the Rebellion, since he is against the Shaper doctrine. In the first 2 1/2 Islands I've seen in GF3, only Hoge and Litalia have defected to the Rebellion. Openly. There is one Shaper in the 3rd island, that has some Glaaks locked by or something, that is pro-creation-rights. She could become a rebel I think (please don't tell me if she does or not or even if it's not discussed further). I got some rebel-points talking with her.

Hoge is not in GF4 or GF5 though.