Rotghroth Rhapsody Luca Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Must have missed that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Can you be confused by asking yourself whether you're confused or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lifecrafterandnoobeditor Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 No, that pretty much solves confusion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 That.......makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lifecrafterandnoobeditor Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 I was supposed to make sense? oh, my bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Luca Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 *blink* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lifecrafterandnoobeditor Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 that post had absolutely no merit whatsoever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Spam, Spam, spam, spam, spam, spaaaaaaaaam!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Seriously, please stop posting nonsense. It's getting extremely tiresome. Â Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lifecrafterandnoobeditor Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 like saying spam several times? lol yes dikiyoba we shall stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Ghaldring Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd Geneforge has hit points- fireballs are survivable. Realistically, even Firebolt would likely kill you. It takes years of training to gain "Just a little bit of Shaping skill". Like, enough to Shape a worm. That may be in part because Shapers tightly restrict the flow of knowledge. Even Shaper apprentices receive very little Shaping instruction from their masters (Shanti and the PC in Geneforge 2). Nevertheless, many Shapers the age of Monarch (middle age) are more than capable of Shaping hordes of uncontrollable creations. So I repeat, one does not need canisters to Shape hordes of uncontrollable creations. Canisters may make the whole process easier, but that's beside the point. Banning canisters on that justification is tackling the symptom instead of the root problem, which is Shaping itself. Quote: Hypothetically, you don't really need a Control Rod to make sure uncontrolled hordes of creations don't kill you. You could just Shape them into a pit or on the far side of a cliff face. You're reaching IMHO. Shaping creations in a pit might work, but what good is that? Monarch would not have been able to cause the havoc he did if he kept his creations confined to pits. And from a cliff face? That just sounds implausible. Quote: You need the Control Rod if you're going to have those creations near you, but you could have just a few controlled creations for bodyguard purposes. It's inevitable that your creations are going to be near you at some point, because you need to Shape them in the first place. And there's no real guarantee that they won't find their way back to you. You're putting yourself at a tremendous amount of risk if you don't have a Control Baton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 You're putting yourself in a tremendous amount of risk even with a Control Baton. Â Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Well Monarch's clothes and contol batons were scorched by creations that chose to express their displeasure his way, so having the creations in a place where they can't get at you makes sense. Hence spawners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Ghaldring Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 I was thinking of something along the lines of spawners. Do you need to be canister altered in order to shape them, though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Ghaldring Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba You're putting yourself in a tremendous amount of risk even with a Control Baton. Dikiyoba. So Monarch would have dropped dead pretty soon anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Sudanna Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Originally Posted By: Ghaldring I was thinking of something along the lines of spawners. Do you need to be canister altered in order to shape them, though? Nalyd doesn't think so, since the one Shaper south of Dillame did, illegally. When Nalyd said "Shape them into a pit", he meant that there would be an exit from said pit, but did not lead back up to you. Khyryk's teleporting trick from G3 would be especially useful. It wouldn't be an absurdly big cliff. . . And sure, let's get rid of Control Batons as well. Judging by the PC's thoughts of them, they're pretty obsolete. But canisters still need to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lifecrafterandnoobeditor Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 If your making all these creations that are uncontrollable, even if you have a control baton, wouldnt you make sure you could blast anything of yours if it attacked you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Originally Posted By: Ghaldring So Monarch would have dropped dead pretty soon anyway? No, but the Baton is a large weakness. If it breaks around uncontrolled creations, you're in trouble. If someone else has a Baton, they can get through your creations to you. It's better than nothing, of course, but still not very safe. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 And it wouldn't even have to break, it could be a fragment of a certain part crucial to controlling. Which could be caused by lets say, an errant fireball on the battlefield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Luca Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: Ghaldring many Shapers...are more than capable of Shaping hordes of uncontrollable creations.... Many? Litalia, Monarch... Or perhaps you could mean that they could but they don't. Originally Posted By: Ghaldring Banning canisters on that justification is tackling the symptom instead of the root problem, which is Shaping itself. I was about to ask you if you were a trakovite...The council will find and kill you at the end of their five year tea party... Originally Posted By: Ghaldring Shaping creations in a pit might work, but what good is that? Monarch would not have been able to cause the havoc he did if he kept his creations confined to pits. If you wanted to "cause havoc" don't "confine" them, give them the ability/shape them with the knowledge to get out from said pit and kill in mass quantities. Or be in an underground safe-room and shape them to the surface.... What is the maximum shaping distance? As far as you can comprehend it to be? Originally Posted By: Nalyd's new avatar I liked you better being Darth Sidous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lifecrafterandnoobeditor Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 The entire shaping council could make uncontrollable hordes... they just dont. mm tea party. do they give out biscuits? and i dont know if its possible to make creations that can move at a normal rate AND make other creations, the spawners werent exactly track runners... and no, darth sidious sucks even tho hes the greatest evil genius the world has ever seen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Luca Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Originally Posted By: Nalyd That was sarcasm dearie Yes, it worked...grr... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Sudanna Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Wrong topic, Nebulan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Ghaldring Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Nebulan: Quote: Many? Litalia, Monarch... Or perhaps you could mean that they could but they don't. Â That's exactly what I mean. Â Quote: If you wanted to "cause havoc" don't "confine" them, give them the ability/shape them with the knowledge to get out from said pit and kill in mass quantities. Â So they are going to be allowed out of the pit? How would you prevent them from attacking you, apart from using a control rod? Â Quote: Or be in an underground safe-room and shape them to the surface.... What is the maximum shaping distance? As far as you can comprehend it to be? Â As depicted in several Geneforge sketches: Right next to the creation. You have to direct streamers of essence, so I doubt you could Shape creations while miles away. If you could do that, then the Shapers/Rebels would be doing it. Â Quote: I was about to ask you if you were a trakovite...The council will find and kill you at the end of their five year tea party... Â You missed the clue train. Â I'm pointing out that attempting to prevent disaster by prohibiting canister usage is ridiculous, since you can quite easily achieve what Monarch did with moderate Shaping ability and a control baton. The only sure way to prevent future Monarchs it to destroy all Shaping knowledge, not just canisters. Â I find posters who want to ban canisters, but not Shaping, to be inconsistent in their views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: Ghaldring I find posters who want to ban canisters, but not Shaping, to be inconsistent in their views. Learning to shape doesn't cause brain damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Ghaldring Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Thuryl: Quote: Learning to shape doesn't cause brain damage. Â Canister usage doesn't necessarily cause brain damage. As I've already established, how canisters affect personality, and how many are required to do so, varies between individuals. Â I admit that there is a trend between canister usage and megalomania. But then again, there appears to be a trend between being able to Shape and megalomania. As well as a flagrant disregard for Creations and life in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Luca Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: Ghaldring But then again, there appears to be a trend between being able to Shape and megalomania. It is indeed possible to shape without becoming insane. Whilst shapers tend to be arrogant, they have strict laws preventing things from becoming out of hand. Meanwhile one canister leads to another and another. Power increases for that individual and an exponential rate, while control declines. Originally Posted By: Ghaldring So they are going to be allowed out of the pit? How would you prevent them from attacking you, apart from using a control rod? If you are still sane enough to shape in the first place, you have the ability to shape creations with the knowledge not to attack their creator. This effect could even possible wear off in time just so the creation does not become confused at what not to attack. Of course they will be allowed to leave. Originally Posted By: Ghaldring As depicted in several Geneforge sketches: Right next to the creation. You have to direct streamers of essence, so I doubt you could Shape creations while miles away. If you could do that, then the Shapers/Rebels would be doing it. I'm not talking about shaping them miles away, I'm talking about shaping them from four feet underground with instructions to kill things, while you are safe. Originally Posted By: Nalyd Wrong topic, Nebulan. No, really?... Didn't think you wanted a thread in general totaly about you, but we can work it in... Smite me almighty smiter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Eldibs Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: Lifecrafterandnoobeditor and i dont know if its possible to make creations that can move at a normal rate AND make other creations, the spawners werent exactly track runners... Drakons and Serviles. They can Shape (or at least be modified to be able to Shape), they are creations, and they can move around quite effectively. Originally Posted By: Nebulan If you are still sane enough to shape in the first place, you have the ability to shape creations with the knowledge not to attack their creator. This effect could even possible wear off in time just so the creation does not become confused at what not to attack. Of course they will be allowed to leave. Or, perhaps since a Shaper would also be an accomplished magician (presumably), you could create a device that generates a field that causes all creations in it to simultaneously become both drowsy and overcome with the urge to leave. Then, even if they did resist the urge to leave you alone, they'd be easy to stop. As an added safety measure, you could stick with weaker creations that are easy to affect with the field, which would also allow you to swarm an area with lots of creations more easily (a la Zergling Rush). Originally Posted By: Nebulan I'm not talking about shaping them miles away, I'm talking about shaping them from four feet underground with instructions to kill things, while you are safe. Perhaps some nice, thick puresteel grating, with a protective shield designed to stop blasts of fire/ice/acid, but allow everything else to pass through? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 If there were an absolutely safe way to shape creations, Shapers would do it that way. Since Shapers are still occasionally injured when their new creations go rogue, we know there isn't an absolutely safe way to shape creations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Eldibs Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Perhaps high-end protections aren't cost effective for day-to-day shaping? I mean, if they're just making a single Fyora or Battle Alpha, there's no need to spend all the time and money on all sorts of barriers and puresteel gratings. Or maybe they're too wrapped up in the actual shaping to be concerned with things like magic barriers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Luca Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Why is there all this talk of problems controlling creations, shapers can controll them or atleast shape them with the desire to protect not want to kill the shaper. If your making with the intention of them going rogue it helps to make them a little nutty anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Eldibs Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Yes, but you still don't want them attacking you. If you're going for the whole "waves of creations to take over an area" plan, you pretty much want them to attack everything but you. Making them prone to attacking would make them prone to attacking you, and making them completely controllable would make it impossible to make waves after waves of them (and also might make them less prone to attack approaching Shapers). Hence, Monarch's control baton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Luca Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: Eldibs I mean, if they're just making a single Fyora or Battle Alpha... I was quoting this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Eldibs Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 What I meant with that was that your average law-abiding Shaper wouldn't need advanced protections because they'd most likely be making a single, easily-controllable creation (or just a few controllable creations), whereas a megalomaniac bent on conquest would most likely be making lots and lots of creations and would therefore have difficulty controlling them (or would make them completely uncontrollable), thus requiring some way to defend themselves from said creations without outright destroying all of them (which would put the madman back at square one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Even the regular and responsible Shapers seem to have a recurrent problem with rogues that predates the rebellion. There seem to be plenty of mechanisms in place for dealing with them as they arise in G1 and G2, and G1 in particular exposes a Shaper's view of an island full of rogues.  —Alorael, who concludes that there's no safe way to shape or secure way to maintain control. Creations run amok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Goldengirl Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: Ghaldring Originally Posted By: Nebulan Or be in an underground safe-room and shape them to the surface.... What is the maximum shaping distance? As far as you can comprehend it to be? As depicted in several Geneforge sketches: Right next to the creation. You have to direct streamers of essence, so I doubt you could Shape creations while miles away. If you could do that, then the Shapers/Rebels would be doing it. Incorrect. Shapers have Shaped from a long ways away, usually with the assistance of essence conduits and Shaping pads. Case in point - the Barrier Zone, where the three Shapers Shaped their creations from the safety of their bunkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Luca Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: Goldenking Incorrect. Shapers have Shaped from a long ways away, usually with the assistance of essence conduits and Shaping pads. Case in point - the Barrier Zone, where the three Shapers Shaped their creations from the safety of their bunkers. This makes sense, I always wondered what the point of shaping pads was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Actualy, we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Luca Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Not soon enough *Nebulan sends and evil glance* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Originally Posted By: Goldenking with the assistance of essence conduits and Shaping pads. Not true. The Shaping platforms don't actually effect the Shaping process in any way. Originally Posted By: Servile Warrens, G1 The chamber has three round, smooth stone platforms, which are what Shapers usually use as a surface to make creations. No particular reason. Just more organized and easier to clean. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Originally Posted By: Goldenking with the assistance of essence conduits and Shaping pads. Not true. The Shaping platforms don't actually effect the Shaping process in any way. Originally Posted By: Servile Warrens, G1 The chamber has three round, smooth stone platforms, which are what Shapers usually use as a surface to make creations. No particular reason. Just more organized and easier to clean. Dikiyoba. Back to square one. >I came, I saw, I conquered -Gaius Juilies Ceaser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Sleeping Dragon Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I think the conduits at least play a part for distance shaping. Shaila shapes creations from the other side of a wall to attack you, and there are indeed conduits going through the wall attaching to the platforms the creations appear on. Moseh's Eastern Barrier as well as most other places where creations appear infinitely (at least in G4 which I most recently played) all have shaping platforms that the creations appear on. Could it be that Jeff has evolved the method since G1? Perhaps they are used a a focusing point of some sort, at least for distance shaping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lifecrafterandnoobeditor Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 The conduits may have a part in it, but it may require a different type of teaching, because if you just had to yse a conduit, the shapers could set up platforms in every town and send several shapers to monitor each city via the creation seeing crystals (rivergate keep) and would therefore be alot stronger against the Rebel threat then they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Goldengirl Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Originally Posted By: Lifecrafterandnoobeditor The conduits may have a part in it, but it may require a different type of teaching, because if you just had to yse a conduit, the shapers could set up platforms in every town and send several shapers to monitor each city via the creation seeing crystals (rivergate keep) and would therefore be alot stronger against the Rebel threat then they were. It certainly takes skill, and dedication. Those Shapers in the Barrier Zone are never going to leave their posts again, on pain of death. Also, something tells me the process of hooking yourself up to "the network" isn't cheap, and neither are the crystal viewers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Actually, I remember Shaftoe saying that they could leave, but it would be very difficult and quite possibley kill them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk BlueRivets Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 I remember killing those three shapers, I think Eliza actually walked a little. Granted that was at least a month ago so I don't remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk pitchblack Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Yeah, she did. Right before blasting you with Essence Orbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lifecrafterandnoobeditor Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 `the network` sounds very matrix maybe they can leave, but they become outcasts of their own kind by doing so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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