Avadon vs Avernum

[Dig314]

Realistically, I only have time for one extended RPG now.

 

If you have played games from the Avernum series and Avadon, please share which game you enjoyed the most and why.

 

Dig

[Randomizer]

Avernum games are longer and you can reach higher levels. The first trilogy, although with an outdate interface and combat system, have non linear formats that allow you to wander around and just explore instead of being forced to do one major quest after another to open up the next area.

 

Avadon allows you to reach the higher level skills sooner.

[A less presumptuous name.]

It should be noted that the Avernum series is currently being remade. The mac version just started beta testing, and it should be out before the end of the year. Unless you want to try the clunky engine of the original games, I would recommend trying Avadon now and, if you have time later, coming back for the Avernum remakes.

 

But really, there are free demos for all of the games available from Spiderweb's site. See what you like!

[Enraged Slith]

The Avernums are classic RPGs. Avadon is your newer Bioware flavor.

 

Honestly, it's like comparing apples and oranges. Go with Avadon if you want a compelling story and Avernum if you want old-fashioned dungeon-crawling goodness.

[Slawbug]

Avernum, Avadon, and Geneforge are all classic RPG style. None of them are exactly like classic RPGs back in the day. Avernum is certainly closest, but I don't think it's that much closer than the other series.

[Lilith]

Avadon is significantly shorter (20-30 hours) compared to Avernum (40-60), so if you're time-poor that's a consideration.

[jlsgaladriel]

I greatly prefer Avernum to Avadon, but as Master1 said, the series is being remade. The earlier Avernums as they stand now are hard to play if you're expecting, say, a modern inventory management system. So if you're choosing between the first Avernum and Avadon, at the moment I think Avadon is the obvious choice.

 

If you don't mind jumping in to a story mid-stream, though, Avadon 5 would be a good choice.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

If you don't mind jumping into the future in your time machine, Avadon 5 would be a good choice.

[Superba]

I believe I agree with Enraged Slith about comparing apples and oranges. Taking for granted some Avernum features we all like, Avadon is graphically a complete different game; the design, the details, the width of the screen and the areas that we have to discover quest after quest change the perspective and also the emotional approach to the game.

In terms of mood/ambience I like both the old Avernum serie and Avadon, while in terms of layout and graphics Avadon is a very good start for a smashing new Spiderweb serie. We probably will see a great deal of differences in the plot of Avadon II, because the player was already fooled once with a party of psycho outsiders and the same trick wouldn't work twice.

[Micawber]

Originally Posted By: Superba

the player was already fooled once with a party of psycho outsiders and the same trick wouldn't work twice.

Ahem.

Geneforge 1: Shaper apprentice encounters serviles with varying political views
Geneforge 2: Shaper apprentice encounters serviles with varying political views
Geneforge 3: Shaper apprentice encounters serviles with varying political views

[Superba]

Sorry I played only Geneforge demos, however what I mean is that we could not have the same surprise, being with a party like that, being forced to cooperate as being influenced by their misleading points of view; this is something the player can be affected succesfuly only once. Next time Jeff will find something different to send us to the wrong direction

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Micawber

Originally Posted By: Superba

the player was already fooled once with a party of psycho outsiders and the same trick wouldn't work twice.

Ahem.

Geneforge 1: Shaper apprentice encounters serviles with varying political views
Geneforge 2: Shaper apprentice encounters serviles with varying political views
Geneforge 3: Shaper apprentice encounters serviles with varying political views

You forgot Geneforge 4: Servile with varying political views encounters Shaper apprentices.

[ToddMcF2002]

Servile Politics doesn't play much of a role in Geneforge 4. In fact Serviles don't play much of a role at all. Geneforge 4 is an amazing game. Its long, challenging, has full animations (compared to Avernum) and choice/consequence. That's where I would start. Avadon is good but Geneforge 4 has a much richer experience.

[Death Knight]

Although people say that Avadon takes a short 20-25 hours to beat, I played it for 40 hours with little gained and gave up more than halfway due to frustration. I would recommend the geneforge series out of all. The original avernum 1 is lacking in story and doesnt compare to geneforge 1. Although the party aspect is better in avernum 1, Geneforge's story is by far the most unique. The second trilogy avernums are probably the most likely for you to like and get through. Play Avernum 4 (if it works), if not then avernum 5. Avernum 4 has a bad tendency to not work very well even with excellent specs. Avernum 5 is great, and Avernum 6 I have not played yet.

 

Avadon is probably the least likely for you to enjoy. It really has nothing that the other games dont have better.

[Micawber]

Despite my earlier sarcasm, I actually do agree with that. Although the first two sequels rank somewhat lower in originality, Geneforge still has the best setting, and in terms of gameplay, it's the most varied and challenging, and replayable.

[ToddMcF2002]

I can't agree with Death Night about the Avadon experience. I agree Geneforge (specifically GF4) is better, but Avadon is very worthy. I'm not sure how you could play 40 hours and give up in frustration. The game is actually not particularly difficult and those encounters that are can be avoided for the most part. For example, killing a dragon. I died an order of magnitude more often in Geneforge 4 than Avadon.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Agreed. I'm of the opinion that Geneforge is SW's hardest series by a significant margin. (Well, of the 2.5-d games. I recall the original Exile series as really brutal, but that was the late '90s, and I was in middle school, so that may bias my data.) Also my favorite, but definitely the one that gave me the most trouble. I had a pattern for the later Avernum and Geneforge games (4-6, 3-5, respectively): for Avernum, first time through on hard, subsequent plays on torment. For Geneforge, first time on normal, subsequent on hard. I have beaten G4 and G5 on torment, but that was after knowing the game system inside and out, and even then it was quite challenging. I used the same difficulty formula for Avadon as for the Avernum games, and it worked out well.

[Death Knight]

You are both forgeting that avadon is not your usual type of hard. Lets compare geneforge 1-5 with avadon 1. Geneforge, you do die quite a bit. However the difference is that you almost always die right away. You get 1 or 2 shotted and thats it. You reload-No problem.

 

Now comparing avadon, you could be doing well in a battle, then mess something up, now your 30 minutes into that battle. You lose, and thats 30 minutes....gone. Geneforge is not like that, you get hit once by a beast, you die, rinse and repeat. Although it may technically be harder than avadon, avadon is far more annoying with how it plays out. I dont like or play games that i can really lose time bigtime when i lose. The same reason i dont play jagged alliance series. And you never know how many times it will take to complete. Its really just a waste of time.

[Slawbug]

How hard the games are really depends on how you play. Veterans of computer RPGs, and of Jeff's games in particular, who are experienced in using optimal tactics, will find them a lot easier than someone who's never played an RPG before.

 

On Normal, Avernum is probably easier than the other games.

 

And on Torment, Avadon is DEFINITELY the most challenging game.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

What battles take 30 minutes in Avadon? I can think of two, Zephyrine and the 'beard. Admittedly, it is annoying as hell to lose those. But those are two battles out of hundreds, and both of them are optional. You act as if every fight, or even every boss, took half an hour.

 

Quote:

And on Torment, Avadon is DEFINITELY the most challenging game.

 

Hmm. It's high on the list, but I still think I found G5 harder. Granted, I haven't beaten the aforementioned 'beard and Zephyrine yet, but per above they are optional, and I have difficulty believing that they're harder than some of the optional fights in G5. The Pairbond Constructs on torment do horrifying amounts of damage, and unlike enemies in torment Avadon, they also have substantially more HP than normal.

[Slawbug]

The general encounters in Avadon are much harder on Torment. The spiders with scripted second attacks and hasting when on Torment, for example, have no counterpart in Avernum or Geneforge.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

That's true. I'll also commend Avadon for having a smoother difficulty curve. G5's difficulty really spikes around the Storm Plains, then stays pretty level from there, whereas Avadon gets gradually harder throughout.

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

What battles take 30 minutes in Avadon? I can think of two, Zephyrine and the 'beard. Admittedly, it is annoying as hell to lose those. But those are two battles out of hundreds, and both of them are optional. You act as if every fight, or even every boss, took half an hour.

Quote:

And on Torment, Avadon is DEFINITELY the most challenging game.

Hmm. It's high on the list, but I still think I found G5 harder. Granted, I haven't beaten the aforementioned 'beard and Zephyrine yet, but per above they are optional, and I have difficulty believing that they're harder than some of the optional fights in G5. The Pairbond Constructs on torment do horrifying amounts of damage, and unlike enemies in torment Avadon, they also have substantially more HP than normal.

A Half an hour is just putting it mildly. I really didnt want to give up on avadon but everything about it really didnt work for me. There are 3 specializations yet the middle is the only useful one, the characters made no sense, for example-the mage moritzkri acted scared to death when i confronted him in front of his ruler, yet he is extremely hard when i fight him at his base. The battles took way too long and followed the path of games like zelda-you do this to weaken the big boss this way, then you've got to do that so that he loses this. What happened to G1 when i can choose my way of fighting a boss and defeating him. There are npcs like bioware, but no actual difference between your character. You can create a character that is a blademaster and he will be no different than sevilin. I will say this though, the skills seemed fun and you could do a bit with each character-even though there isnt a dedicated ranged weapon user.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Just a few comments:

I don't agree that the middle specializations are the only good ones. Playing on easy (because I play to enjoy), I found that my shoddy builds were good enough, and I never even bothered to retrain more than one of my characters.

 

Moritz'kri acts like a baby in front of his lord because that's how one acts when accused of crimes in front of one's lord. I didn't find him to be a puzzling character at all; if anything he was predictable.

 

Also, would you care to mention any non-optional boss fights that had specific Zelda-like kill methods? I can't think of many, and those that did seemed to do a good job of telling you what to do (i.e. Moritz'kri).

[*i]

On easy, you are completely correct. As you advance to higher difficulty levels, rarely is there a contest between the center columns and the side ones. Picking those generally leads to suboptimal builds that can really cripple you on the higher difficulties. While I am okay with suboptimal choices being available that have such an impact, what I do object to is when there is only one logical choice. I call that bad design.

 

I do agree with you on Moritz'Kri making sense, but for different reasons. While he might not be afraid of you necessarily killing him, there are other motivators than fear of death to make him act the way he does. In this case, once you make the accusation, he has lost all the support and comfort of his previous life. Even if Avadon, for some reason, decided to leave him alone, he would never be welcomed back into the fold because of the risk it would bring upon his erstwhile employer.

[Death Knight]

The point is still missed, if he was that much of a tough guy, he would have acted like screw you! to his lord. He wouldnt cry like a girl. With that much power, how can he be such a coward. If they did it right, he would act all haughty. You see personalities such as this dont make sense. If they were trying to make him have a split personality, then they would have made it work. In baldurs gate 1, xzar is a complete schizo right from the beginning, you can tell. In avadon, moritzkri is essentially a sloppy fool who happens to somehow be tough??? Hes a mage. I should be able to slam him with all my melee guys. Instead, he can take more hits than my whole group. I dont care how much magic he has, hes a mage. And mages are supposed to be annoying, deadly, but not tanks. It would have been different if he was redbeard, but hes not.

 

Im getting ahead of myself. Here is a list of fights where you have to do x to get x 1) Redbeard, 2) The dragon that mindcontrols the soldiers 3) Moritzkri. 4) The beast

5) The zombies that heal themselves

6) The golem that can only be hurt when you disable the switch.

 

Those are 6 fights I can think of before i quit 1 of which (redbeard), i didnt get up to but heard about. I cant stand fights where i cant go fight the boss my way. If the game is trying to tell me that i have to do or disable this to beat the boss, thats stupid. It reminds me of when i used to play zelda. its a great game, but when i have to follow a course, i will forget about it. The games that truly are fun to me are the ones where the boss is there, he or she is tough, find a way to take him down. I learn nothing about him or her and i have to find a way to beat him that works for me. Arcanum had it, so did geneforge 1. What i dont like is this-Put on a pot of water to make moritzkri cry (lowering his defenses) then attack from behind to get 1 hit in. Its just not fun.

 

Avadon is still probably an ok game by most standards. I just cant play it because it is not fun for me as it reminds me of games i just talked about.

 

[*i]

Quote:

The point is still missed, if he was that much of a tough guy, he would have acted like screw you! to his lord

And I think you miss mine. Yes, the wizard was powerful, but there are other needs than those that can be derived from power alone. An alternative to support his reaction is the threat of losing the social status, prestige, and support of his clan. I argue that it is quite normal to value those things highly. While it is pointless to try and dissect the motives of fictitious characters, I do see his reaction as within the realm of plausible human behavior, as is the alternate reaction you suggest.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Also, it is mentioned that Carsta'rl (or whatever his name is) has been giving Moritz'kri supplies. While the mage may be more powerful than the master, the master is the one who can obtain supplies. Moritz'kri is thus dependent on the good will of of Carsa'rl for his materials. One should not bite the hand that feeds one.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Originally Posted By: Master1

One should not bite the hand that feeds one.

unless it tastes good, of course

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Or if your stomach is making the rumblies that only hands can satisfy.