Respect.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

There was a startling new revelation in Geneforge 4 that, in a way, could change everything:

 

The uncontrollable rage experienced by those shaped by canisters or the geneforge has no effect when dealing with a similarly shaped or otherwise skilled individual.

 

What a breakthrough for the Tullegolites! The theory of a bunch of powerful godlike beings warring with each other and destroying the world in their wake is no more! Those blessed by the geneforge will experience no rage towards each other, they in fact feel a healthy dose of respect for their skills! There is still the rage felt towards lesser beings, but this is acceptable- nay, desirable for a true Tullegolite. The new revelation that similarly shaped people can now work together is a bonus, as it will make building an army of elite shapers much easier.

 

But Tullegolar, doesn't that make you a rebel that you approve of canisters and geneforges? Nonsense. One of the various ideologies that was missed out on in Geneforge 4 was the one that approves of shaping yourself but does not approve of creation rights. Shaping yourself will make controlling the stronger creations much easier, the Shapers really miss out on this benefit. The foolish rebels fight amongst themselves, more interested in destruction and carnage rather than the final goal. Tullegolites will be united in purity and stronger than the shapers. Surely you can see the superiority of this ideology over any other.

[Khoth]

I got the impression that the canister-driven rage was against those who are (perceived as) lesser, rather than just those who hadn't been augmented at all. Look at the drakons' treatment of drayks and you. Also, with Burke or whoever it was near the beginning, you both get irrationally angry at each other.

 

With a hatred of lesser beings, and the general human tendency to overestimate one's own ability, it seems that radioactive smoking wasteland is more likely than peaceful cooperation.

[Alorael at Large]

Agreed. Also, since conventional armies are a major part of conflicts even between shapers and morale is a major part of armies, who do you think wins? The army where the commanders tend to messily explode underlings who fail or the army where the commanders are sane?

 

—Alorael, who thinks there is a precedent for this type of situations. See Galactic Empire v. Plucky Rebel Scum.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I am confident that loyalty would be maintained with promises of great power to those that served well. The Shapers have a large army, and what do they give them in return? Their lives? My option is clearly the best because you have the potential to gain great power and you don't have to worry about ending up a slave to creations like you are when you're a rebel.

[Randomizer]

While you might have a slightly easier time controlling your rage versus those that grant you some respect, I think that was more of a game artifact to allow you not to automatically kill everyone once you cross the canister limit. Most individuals will not be able to deal with lesser beings and even their "equals" without blasting a few. Respect was more an example of fear as exemplified by Drewey in Dillame.

[Aoslare]

There is plenty of evidence from previous games that the canisters DO affect you when dealing with a similarly augmented individual. In G1, your interactions with Trajkov come to mind. IIRC, late game dialogue options with Barzahl in G2 and Litalia in G3 are similarly affected.

[Khoth]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
I am confident that loyalty would be maintained with promises of great power to those that served well. The Shapers have a large army, and what do they give them in return? Their lives?

The Shapers, however, haven't been popping canisters like candy. They might be oppressive, but people can serve them without too much danger of being torn apart in an insane rage for some imagined slight. Great power isn't so attractive when you're being commanded by someone who'll kill you for looking at him funny. And before you say "well, just become more powerful than your commander", an army won't do too well if the main concern of everyone in it is jostling to the top.

It's the rebellion, with its crazy leaders, that's falling apart at the seams.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Khoth:
an army won't do too well if the main concern of everyone in it is jostling to the top.

Where is the reasoning for that? Isn't this how all armies work to a degree? Also, the main concern would be survial. Both sides are bound to hate a faction that uses canisters and opposes creation rights. It's all a matter of ideology, when you're fighting for what you believe in, little else matters. I think people would support my beliefs, all people like power, and people are constantly becomming more and more hostile towards creation rights due to the insanity of the drakons.

Edit Edit Edit: Hopefully, no one saw any of those.

[Randomizer]

I don't think your army would last too long between the fragging of the senior officers by the juniors and the fights to get new canisters. Go back to GF1 and the Sholai becoming canister addicts. It took a lot of leadership to get any canisters away from them. They became more concerned with increasing their power than with external threats.

 

ET - your army would have the lower ranks in terror of upsetting a senior and quite canister mad officer. A few would be trying to get canisters to get revenge on the seniors.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Barzahl's army didn't have any infighting. They had a clear goal, and they went for it in the Barzite ending. So it is possible.

 

Edit: Dissatisfaction with rank is desirable in my army. The canisters will be more closely guarded than gold, obviously, so them getting stolen by low ranking fools is not a possibility. The only way to get back at the officers would be to earn canisters, and the only way to earn canisters is through valiance in battle. Then, if you are powerful enough to kill your officer, so be it. If you succeed, then the officer was both foolish to anger you and too weak to continue to be in command anyway.

 

Should things in the army get too out of hand, then the intellectuals or even myself (who would have already used far more canisters than anyone else) shall move in and reimpose order.

[Fort]

A strictly imposed martial plan like that would work, and this unscrupulous army of canister shaped soldiers led by Geneforged demigods and bolstered by enslaved creations would be unstoppable.

 

However, you still need to deal with the issue of how long a canister crazed individual can stay sane. Why would a powerful officer want to give his underlings an opportunity to dethrone him? You argue that it is because they are trenchant enough to see the ultimate good, but I think the canisters remove their sense of communalism as much as they increase their ego.

[Good Canisters]

Ah, ET has convinced me. However, I always love to abuse canisters and I use the Geneforge at every chance (even if it causes my death), so my opinion may be badly biased.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Good Canisters:
Ah, ET has convinced me.

Excellent. One down. Though I must say that convincing someone named Good Canisters that canisters are good is not the most satisfying accomplishment.

Randomizer: Powerful officers will have no qualms about giving others power. They will not be afraid of being overthrown. The arrogance caused by the canisters assures this. Sure, those new to the canisters will be rash and disagreeable. But those at the top of the food chain, those that have used the most canisters and have had the most time to hone their abilities I imagine will be more like Litalia. Enlightened. They will be what the army draws its strength from, physically and spiritually. But Tullegolar, no one ends up like Litalia! Well, they will have to in order to survive. Otherwise, they will go the way of Trajkov and Barzahl. Only those that learn how to control themselves can reach the top and become great leaders, like Litalia. I only hope that pessimism isn’t a prerequisite for that enlightenment. Litalia annoys me.

[John S]

Litalia was a minor stooge, and most people ended up killing her. Also, she had doubts about what she was doing.

 

Tullegolar, you seem to have everything figured out. How do you plan to deal with the inevitable dissentious apprentice of G1-3 fame? What happens when some young canister-popping punk strolls in and tries to destroy your entire army? How will you stop him?

[Fort]

Citing the player is lame, Kuber. If anything, the person ruling the Tullegolite army would be the player.

 

I still think that vying for power would cause too much internal stability to keep the war machine going. In your proposed system, ET, even if canister addicts have greater respect for each other, this does not prevent them from having secessionist tendencies.

 

"I respect you Tully, the Supreme Glowing Fiend, but I think I will go start my own uberarmy."

"How dare you?! Die!"

[Randomizer]

Actually ET would first find out as the new rival crushes or takes over his army on the way to eliminating him. The last words ET hears are, "you weren't good enough for even an underling."

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I would, of course, encourage people to try and overthrow me. It's an excellent way to keep myself fit and alert. But really, I think it would only take a few particularly gruesome examples before challenges to my power stop altogether. If the PC kills me, then so be it. I'll be throwing back cold ones with Diablo, the Master and Rentar-Ihrno in the next life.

[Aoslare]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
...Diablo, the Master and Rentar-Ihrno...

This is not an OK juxtaposition.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

You're not an Ok juxtaposition!

[Kelandon]

ur moms not an ok juxtaposition

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
ur moms not an ok juxtaposition

Not an okay juxtaposition either. "Ur" and "juxtaposition" aren't even the same language!

Ego, your use of gruesome examples only works if your underlings are sane. Once you start handing out the canisters that's a patently bad assumption. The victims of gruesome examples are in fact likely to be looked upon as warnings of how not to do it, not what not to do, and the examples themselves will be inspirations.

—Alorael, who has low confidence in any power structure based on the idea that everyone wants to kill everyone else. War is an excellent place to forget to provide key backup, or maybe to provide it to the other side. War is also not a place generally known for enhancing sanity and equanimity even in perfectly normal folks.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Lock before the in.:
Ego, your use of gruesome examples only works if your underlings are sane. Once you start handing out the canisters that's a patently bad assumption.

That might be a good argument, but I can still fall back to my original point here:

Quote:

Originally by Jeff Vogel:
As she talks, you notice that you don't feel any of the rage you have been feeling when someone isn't respectful to you. Odd. Maybe it only takes effect around those not skilled in Shaping.

They will respect me. Each canister they take only makes them more my slaves.

[Aeshi]

And HOW do you plan to defend against me when I come with my Eyebeasts to obliverate your army (and you) with magic???

[Khoth]

Something I've always found unrealistic in the series is the power-crazy canister users who have some spare and are willing to give them away.

[Sudanna]

There are hints that taking too many canisters too fast is dangerous. The Master upstairs in Southforge says that he is increasing his power "As safely as possible".

 

Also, Nalyd has visions of Rebels exploding from using so many canisters that they become a bloated blob of blindingly bright dough. And then they explode.

[Fort]

ET, like Alo said, your plan only functions if it is possible to deter other canister using shapers with gruesome examples. The matter of respect still does not negate that each and every one of them will think himself the strongest dude who ever lived. It might be fun to stick yourself up on a pedestal where you can watch your underlings battle it out, but in the end it is still the armies that wins wars. There is a huge difference between respect and deference.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

The only thing keeping people loyal to me is the promise of power in the form of canisters. This is where the canisters makers come in. Making canisters is a rare skill that requires a well equiped workshop. He who controles the means of creating canisters controls the Tullegolite armies. I'm not sure how many workshops a large force needs, but the rebels only seem to have a few, maybe even just one person (Master Jared) who makes them at all.

 

I will keep the secret of creating canisters between myself and the people who actually make them, and I will make sure I am always more powerful than the makers. I will keep them somehwere nearby at all times so that if someone wants to attack me or them, they must attack both of us. People would not want to endanger the source of the canisters, so I should be safe from attack. I might have to worry about the makers betraying me, but I think as long as I keep them in a constant state of luxury and give them all the supplies they need to continue their mad crusades and grand experiments, we should get along just fine.

[Alorael at Large]

That works only until your addicts go so canister-crazy that they think they can kill you and somehow still get canisters, or maybe they don't bother to think ahead and just kill you.

 

—Alorael, who wonders what you do when you've given underlings so many canisters that they're on the verge of being able to make their own. Do you stop giving them canisters, removing their incentive not to kill you? Do you start worrying when there's a small army of addicts no longer getting their canister fix and eyeing you angrily?

[Good Canisters]

We actually can't give away too many canisters. They should only be a reward for a great achievement, such as killing a leader. Too many canisters would cause addiction and extreme destabilization.

 

After playing through more areas of G3 that I normally avoid, I'm seeing problems with the rebels working together. The factions need to be divided, one for serviles and one for creations. Shapers should also start to partake in canisters and alterations, providing they can make it "safe", which is a great challenge.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Voltaic Divide:
That works only until your addicts go so canister-crazy that they think they can kill you and somehow still get canisters, or maybe they don't bother to think ahead and just kill you.

I think I can safely say that no single minion will be able to kill me. Several, maybe even just two would, but this leads to comlications for the would be assasins. I don't think that people so whacked out on canisters as you are describing would be able to organize such a resistance, work together, or even come to som econsensus that I should be killed. Thus, through madness, I acheive order.

As for any of my minions becomming too powerful, this is a tough one. As they continue to grow in power, I will send them on more and more dangerous missions, of course. If they wish to retire from fighting and take a noble seat at my side they are welcome, but it will cost them, they will receive no more canisters. This way, the only way anyone will ever gain enough power to challenge me will be if they return from epic battles again and again victorious every time. In which case, perhapes they simply deserve my position. It will be an honor to die fighting them.

Edit: Good Canisters has a good point as well. It's not like I'm going to be giving out canisters left and right. I could give one per person of great merit per year, and I would still be giving away much more power than the Shapers. People would need to do much in order to gain so many canisters to become as crazy as everyone is describing, and even then they will be spread out, so they will have had time to cope with the changes in their minds.

[Fort]

Since you have conceded the possibility of a coup d'etat, the only point left to argue is whether these threats to the current leadership of your army will seriously hamper it. You cannot possibly promote a doctrine of murderous rank ascension while having coaxing everyone to limit the coups to one a month. The only way I could see you controlling everyone effectively is to achieve mind control of your generals. Even a canister maker or general kept in constant luxury will still think about why he must continue to depend on you for such rewards.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I don't hire morons to be my generals. Any good commander knows that together, and army is strong, fractured, it falls. Yes, Tullegolite philosophy requires that the world be in a constant state of conflict to function, much like the Mongolian Hordes. But that it why it is designed to work in the Geneforge world, a world already torn apart by a war that has no such end in sight.

 

Also, coups are a threat that any unpopular government has to deal with. The Shapers deal with it by locking themselves in fortresses, drakons deal with it through political intrigue, and I deal with it by keeping myself alert and stronger than anyone else. Each method has it merits. I don't see why I would be any more hampered by discontent than any of the other factions already are. At least my army has the purity of self-shaping to unite us. The Shapers have only fear keeping them together, and the rebels... they are already falling apart.

[Fort]

I would imagine the Tullegolites would feel too headstrong and arrogant to fully submit themselves to your rule without believing that they could do a better job themselves. It would not necessarily be a fault of the leader, but rather of the concept. It is like forming a united front of individualists. Also, constant vigilance is a given for any leader. It would just be even more wearisome for you.

 

I agree that they would be united in the philosophy of the righteousness of self-shaping, but again that does not afford your army any extra advantage over the other groups, whose ideologies help promote loyalty. Isn't the whole idea behind the canisters that absolute power corrupts absolutely? A stable leadership is necessary to keep the soldiers in line, and I just do not see that happening.

 

My plan would involve setting up a rotation of generals to become puppet leaders who would attract the assassinations while you work behind the scenes. You must counter the dissent within the ranks by swiftly executing rebel and sending possible rebels on impossibly dangerous missions. Your army must be significantly weaker than what you originally imagined, but that is the only way you can maintain control. I hope that is an acceptable trade.

[Lord Safey]

I see only one problem with your plan. Your plan is to jealously protect your cansiters and give them as payment to your army. Which works real well. In ancient Rome those who payed the army controlled Rome. As long as you rewared your armies with cansiters and be careful doing so you will be fine. One problem, canisters are very hard to controll much harder then controlling knowledge the old fashion way, an advantage the shapers have. If someone in your amry wants to gain power without your perimssion all they have to do is steal a few cansiters and use them real quick (which will take 1 or 2 hours at most) compared to shapers haveing to steall lots of heavy books and vauble machinery and study for years all the time avoiding being caught. The second problem you have is your system pretty much uses canisters as currency. One person gets to your canister factory and sabatoges it and your entire amry fractures. Trajkov had control of his army but feared loseing it when he ran out of canisters and he was very desperate on gaining the abilty of makeing more canisters. I destroy your canister labs your army collaspes; you burn the shaper's books they go on. In that is your weakness.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Well, as I said before, the canister workshop would be heavily guarded. As the heart of my empire, every Tullegolite would know the place's value and would guard it with their lives. There is also the fact that few would be willing to destroy a place that could give them so much power. On top of all that, I myself would always be nearby to protect it personally should it ever be threatened. You're right though, of course. Someone could infiltrate and destroy it, bringing down my empire. But given the world of Geneforge, that's the whole point, right?

 

I'm just trying to present an alternative to the repressive ways of the Shapers and the chaos of the Drakons. Surely, though my side is not flawless, you can see it's superiority? We value strength in a world where you must be strong to survive, yet we maintain the important Shaper vision of a world where creations are kept in check, kept from forming bizarre armies and murdering innocent people. It is the best of both sides. What more could you ask for?

 

But Tullegolar, I want a world where everyone lives in peace. Well, you can thank Ghaldring for making sure that such a world is now long gone. You have to fight now. Will you take a side that does not give you sufficient strength, or the side where racist drakons control your future? Or would you have the courage to be a Tullegolite?

[Fort]

Your view makes sense because it would create a society of very strong members. Do you give my plan any credit as a method for attaining that?

 

This whole conversation boils down to whether you think a society based on canisters, and therefore maniacal power, is stable. I do not think it would be, and even though you may, you do not mind that it would be massively violent and uncompassionate either. Where's the love?

[Lord Safey]

I chose the shapers out of hope. The shapers are the only ones who would ever try to restore peace. If the rebels win then the will fracture and the world will split into a massive bloody war that makes the current one look like a minor skirmish. If you win then as soon as you lose your monoply(if you haven't already) on cansiters rival factions will arise out of your empire out of simlar minds to oppuse you and we have another massive and bloody war. Shapers are the only ones were victory would not immeditanly lead headlong into an extremly bloody civil war. In this post I pointed out your victory is not deisirable and in the previous I pointed out it wasn't inevitable. Call me weak if you like; but I don't like the idea of constanly looking over my shoulder or unending wars.

[Lord Safey]

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the occasinal canister as long as you don't let it go to your head and don't become dependent on it. One must be flexiable and adaptable; and useing cansiters to get an edge is not a bad thing as long as you control it To become depedent on them like you have is weakness. Shapers are less powerful then you or the rebels but they are more stable and so is their source of power which in the end will allow them to win.

[Upon Mars.]

Martian can control their powers not like you puny little humans!!!

 

Any way i think that the shapers and the rebells if the shapers stop treating them as rogues and creations that can be bended into their will and on the rebel side to stop the war and trying to convince creations that are rogue to speak of peace instead of war.