Ideologies of Geneforge (4)

[DokEnkephalin]

What, no poll on this yet?

 

Which ideology do you agree with most?

[Randomizer]

I'll give you one guess which one will win with this lot.

[Lord Safey]

I choose shapers because under their rule is peace and order. The rebellion just bring chaos (creation of the unbound is the only way the rebels can turn the tide in their favor) and they in my opinion haven gotten to far away from their views. I don't agree with the trakovites because people will find ways of mass destruction regardless of their technolgy (If I remeber correctly the awaken had trapped a powerful demon that was summoned not shaped into existance). Plus some shapeing secerts will always exist like that on suci island. What the trakovites want to do is what the shapers tried with suci island expect on a far larger scale with far fewer resources and we all know how that ended.

[Suspicious Vlish]

I agree whole heartedly with Rebel (more specifically, Taker) ideology. The Shaper regime is oppressive, cruel and callous. The only way that humans and creations will take their free is via force.

 

As for this nonsense about causing chaos. Every revolution has resulted in temporary chaos, which progressed to anarchy, which progressed to a stable form of government.

[DokEnkephalin]

I agree with them all, more or less.

 

Foremost I agree with the Shapers; this power of Shaping should not be taken lightly, should be a discipline developed through study, effort, and determination. It is not a gift, it is earned. If you handed out the power of Shaping to just anyone and everyone, there'd be a whole lot of Unshaping going on pretty soon.

 

I also agree with the Trakovites. Some things just shouldn't have been created, some abilities never should have been developed or used. But you can't turn back the clock; anything humanity can conceive of, they'll make it happen, whether it should be done or not. And after the gene is out of the bottle, only dire necessity will put it back, when it becomes clearly the pro-survival choice.

 

As much as I admire the Rebels, they seem to have gotten away from their roots; the respect for sentience. Creating life is easy for anyone; just inspect a fistful of jizz or a used tampon for evidence that we're creating life all the time; but sustainable life has a tendency to take on a life of it's own, a life that you can only take so much responsibility for. While Shapers treat all creations as extensions of themselves and faulty extentions as rogues, the rebels want to foist emancipation on all creations whether they've achieve that sentience or not.

 

And at the heart of it, self-interest. Whether you're living in the best of all possible worlds or whether it's going to hell in a handbasket, you can only make the most of it by tending your own garden. So f*ck 'em all and get yours. Be honest; the real choice you make is the one that'll get you the longest and most comfortable life anyway, or afterlife, if you have faith in such a thing. Anything's possible, so it doesn't hurt to cover your bases and secure that as well.

[Lilith]

I intend to find out who has the most treasure, kill them, take it, and repeat the process.

 

(Hey, someone had to say it.)

[Lord Safey]

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
I agree whole heartedly with Rebel (more specifically, Taker) ideology. The Shaper regime is oppressive, cruel and callous. The only way that humans and creations will take their free is via force.

As for this nonsense about causing chaos. Every revolution has resulted in temporary chaos, which progressed to anarchy, which progressed to a stable form of government.

Most revolution do bring chaos true. However most bring something else that make that tempory chaos worth while the rebellion does not. The drakons are becomeing the very shapers they seek to destroy. Not only will the be oppresive as the Shapers but they will lack their order and wisdom.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Lord Safey:

Quote:

Most revolution do bring chaos true. However most bring something else that make that tempory chaos worth while the rebellion does not.

Really? The emancipation of creations is not worthwhile? The right of self-determination for humans is not worthwhile? The right of Drayks and Drakons to exist is not worthwhile?

 

Quote:

The drakons are becomeing the very shapers they seek to destroy. Not only will the be oppresive as the Shapers but they will lack their order and wisdom.

And I see such possibilities as irrelevant. 'Could, should, might, maybe'. Even if the results of a revolution turn out to be unfavourable, that does not change the fact that the revolutionaries fought for a valid cause.

 

An excellent example to demonstrate my point is the Russian Revolution. The revolutionaries had a legitimate grievance against the Czar and his minions. The peasants were starving, and dying in a bloody war. They were shot at by the Czar's troops. They rose up.

 

Sure, 30 years down the track, they had a communist dictatorship. But I'm sure that even you will agree that rising up against their oppressors was the only real option available to the Russian people. The fact that things ended up under Stalin is just bad luck.

 

Quite simply, the Drakons COULD end up being the new Shapers. Maybe, maybe not. But one thing is for certain... the current system under the Shapers is oppressive. So the options are either:

 

1. The Creations and humans allow things to remain the way the are, where they are guaranteed to be oppressed by Shaper rule.

 

or

 

2. The Creations and humans fight for independence, with the possibility that another oppressive regime may take the Shapers place.

 

As Emperor once said regarding an alliance with the Nazis... "I can't fight the Nazis while under the bootheel of the Imperial Japanese" (not an exact quote, but you get the idea.)

 

Likewise, the serviles, humans and drayks can't fight the Drakons while under the bootheel of the Shapers. So let's deal with one oppressor at a time, hmmm? Throw off Shaper oppression first. If the Drakons become dominative, then we can work from there.

[Aeshi]

I say the same as DokEnkephalin (but I still want to shape things!)

[Sir Spiff]

Shapers:

 

Order is the foundation of sustainable prosperity. The Shapers have many internal and governmental problems to resolve, social questions to answer, and plenty of ambition to reign in, but they bring peace and order. The Drakons do not. The Drakons would be far more powerful, far less sane, and have no interest in the other races beyond slave labor.

 

Trakovism wouldn't work. Too many secrets have escaped for shaping to die, for one thing. Also, shaping does a lot of good when not used by the insane; healing, ornks, superior crops- All these be good things, with healing as the most important. After all, in a low/no science world, people'd be screwed without magic healing.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Oh boy. Here we go again.

 

Sir Spiff:

 

Quote:

Order is the foundation of sustainable prosperity.

Not necessarily. A hypothetical to demonstrate why this is so:

 

Imagine that you have a pharoah from ancient Egypt. This pharoah, and his elite guard, use slave labour to build fantastic pyramids and monuments, cities and temples. The slaves are routinely beaten and starved to keep them in line. At the end of every day, they are shackled in an underground prison.

 

You walk down the streets of this pharoah's empire, and you see order, and what is clearly a functioning society.

 

Now, we must ask two questions:

 

1. Are the people of this Empire prosperous?

 

2. Is this a civilization you would want to live within?

 

Quite simply, merely because civilization X is more orderly than civilization Y does mean that it is preferable to civilization Y.

 

Also note that life under the Nazi regime, or Stalin totalitarian regime, was quite orderly. Life under the regime in V for Vendetta was also very orderly, with curfews enforced. Would you want to live in those societies?

 

Quote:

Shapers have many internal and governmental problems to resolve, social questions to answer, and plenty of ambition to reign in, [/b]but they bring peace and order.[/b]

Well, no, that's where you're dead wrong. The Shapers do NOT bring peace. Two powerful arguments to demonstrate why are as follows:

 

1. The only reason there is peace within the Shaper Empire is because the Shapers have used extreme violence to wipe out all opposition. A 'peaceful' nation does not use extreme violence to maintain stability.

 

The hypocrisy of maintaining peace with war is explored in '1984' by George Orwell. I suggest you read it.

 

2. The Shapers clearly do not want peace, given that they refuse to negotiate with the Rebellion. Any empire or nation who is genuinely interested in peace would at least attempt some measure of diplomacy with the opposition, before resorting to gratitious violence.

 

As I've stated in the past: The Drakons make peace difficult, but the Shapers make peace impossible.

 

If the Shaper regime were to grant autonomy to serviles, allow Drayks and Drakons to exist, and allow ordinary humans to have a say in the regulation of Shaping and magic, it's reasonable to assume that most popular support for the Rebellion would bleed away in a microsecond.

 

The fact that the Shapers won't do this is very telling. Quite simply, they are a war-like sect which enforces its whim with violence, oppression, and a monopoly of the Shaping arts.

 

Quote:

The Drakons do not.

The Drakons don't bring peace. Wow, what a surprise, given that they are under constant threat of extermination. What do you expect them to do... lie down and die, so that 'peace' can reign in the Shaper empire?

 

That's the most god damn ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Perhaps countries under Nazi occupation should have laid down their arms, in the interest of maintaining 'peace'.

 

Quote:

The Drakons would be far more powerful, far less sane, and have no interest in the other races beyond slave labor.

Conjecture. The Drakons haven't been given a chance to govern in peacetime, so it's really not known how they would react. I'd argue that the Drakons have a tendency to be violent and uninhibited because they are at war with a superior opponent who wants to wipe them off the face of the Earth.

 

The Drakons are merely reacting to genocide in a manner which any human race would. With extreme violence and prejudice. If someone first created me, enslaved me, and then targeted me for extermination, I would use any means necessary to save my own life, and that of my race.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
The right of Drayks and Drakons to exist is not worthwhile?

Why are the eyebeasts left out? Think of the baby eyebeasts.

[DokEnkephalin]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
The right of Drayks and Drakons to exist is not worthwhile?

Why are the eyebeasts left out? Think of the baby eyebeasts.

They're already revolting, and if the Shapers don't smite them for it, the drakons should.

[Stillness]

Most eyebeasts seem to get along fine with drakons and even humans as far as I can remember. They hate the shapers for the same reason drayks and drakons do. The shapers want to destroy what they can't control.

[Sir Spiff]

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
Quite simply, merely because civilization X is more orderly than civilization Y does mean that it is preferable to civilization Y.

You got my point backwards. I said, "Order is the foundation of sustainable prosperity."

Let's say that a concrete slab is the foundation of any house (I generalize, but it's to make a point). You can have a concrete slab without a house, but a house without the concrete slab will fall.

Likewise, you can have order without prosperity, but prosperity without order crumbles swiftly.

Quote:

If the Shaper regime were to grant autonomy to serviles, allow Drayks and Drakons to exist, and allow ordinary humans to have a say in the regulation of Shaping and magic, it's reasonable to assume that most popular support for the Rebellion would bleed away in a microsecond.

The fact that the Shapers won't do this is very telling. Quite simply, they are a war-like sect which enforces its whim with violence, oppression, and a monopoly of the Shaping arts.

Yet at the same time, the hard-core shaper, Alwan, is willing to deal with a rogue servile (you, if you choose to be a servile), and keep his word, even consider you something like a friend. He does not NEED your help, but he accepts you. Shaper conservativism is not as absolute as it once was. While in the strict shaper ending, it takes deeper root, in the stalemate ending, I believe there is hope within the shapers themselves to overcome their hyperconservativism.

Quote:

The Drakons don't bring peace. Wow, what a surprise, given that they are under constant threat of extermination. What do you expect them to do... lie down and die, so that 'peace' can reign in the Shaper empire?

That's the most god damn ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Perhaps countries under Nazi occupation should have laid down their arms, in the interest of maintaining 'peace'.

Of course you oppose the enemy tooth and nail, but Drakons are openly hostile to their own allies, who certainly aren't trying to destroy their entire race. In their arrogance, they throttle their human "allies" by shutting down their only truly powerful weapon, the Geneforge, because they see humans as trivial.

Quote:

If someone first created me, enslaved me, and then targeted me for extermination, I would use any means necessary to save my own life, and that of my race.

Correct. You would make any ally, use any tool, and support those who can help you in any way possible. You wouldn't alienate your only supporters and rely solely on your own resources. Humans and serviles could have help with the Unbound project, Litalia especially. The Drakons irrationally discarded valuable resources and skills out of arrogance and dementia.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I choose... me.

[Morior]

I really hope this doesn't turn into another Drakon vs. human debate. We've already got one of those.

[Student of Trinity]

Baby eyebeasts! Yikes!

 

Now that we know that gazers reproduce sexually, we do have to ask how their young develop. Do gazers lay eggs? I'd bet they might, on the tenuous grounds that they were developed from vlish, and vlish love making nests.

 

Plus a gazer egg just seems ideal. It would be perfectly round. And just imagine the happy moment when the gazer hatchling breaks its shell, by squinting out its first cute little Kill ray.

[Lord Safey]

lets take the view of your average human in geneforge, Why should I trust some so called self righegtious rebellion, The shapers may not be perfect but becuase of them I have a place to live and food to eat.

 

The main difference between Czar russia and the shapers is that the shapers had a system that worked it was obressive yes but it worked and everyone that followed the rules with the rebels no one lives. They fight among themselves the Drakons have all but forgotten what they are fighting for and just want power if they where fighting for survial they would have inculed the rest of the rebellion on the unbound project. Did they no they just wanted a monoply on the power of the unbound. So far every atrocity the shapers have commited has been equaled if not execed by the rebellion. I can trust the shapers the shapers do(at least try to do) what they say they are going to do. The rebellion you have to guess what your supposed allies are going to do.

[Suspicious Vlish]

SoT:

Quote:

'd bet they might, on the tenuous grounds that they were developed from vlish, and vlish love making nests.

You're making the assumption that nests = eggs. Mice and hares also make nests. Battle alphas have been shown to have nests. None of them are egg laying creatures.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Sir Spiff:

 

Quote:

You got my point backwards. I said, "Order is the foundation of sustainable prosperity."

 

Let's say that a concrete slab is the foundation of any house (I generalize, but it's to make a point). You can have a concrete slab without a house, but a house without the concrete slab will fall.

 

Likewise, you can have order without prosperity, but prosperity without order crumbles swiftly.

Ahh, fair enough. I see what you're saying now.

 

I still find the comment that 'Shaper society is orderly, hence the Creations and humans oppressed within it shouldn't cause trouble' objectionable.

 

An orderly society isn't necessarily a society I'd want to live in. An orderly society which is rounding my people up for genocide (Nazis = Perfect example) isn't going to earn my support, even if it does bring some people (the Germans?) prosperity. I'd rather take the alternative.

 

Quote:

Yet at the same time, the hard-core shaper, Alwan, is willing to deal with a rogue servile (you, if you choose to be a servile), and keep his word, even consider you something like a friend.

So getting someone on the opposition to spy for you counts as diplomacy? So the Soviets would have been engaging in diplomacy with America if they had planted a few KGB agents in the Pentagon?

 

Quote:

He does not NEED your help, but he accepts you.

True, he doesn't need your help. But it sure makes things easier for the Shapers if they have a double agent carrying out the dirty, violent work for them. I don't consider employing someone to do the killing for you 'diplomacy'.

 

Quote:

Shaper conservativism is not as absolute as it once was.

All that GF4 demonstrated is that the Shapers are willing to negotiate reluctantly with soldiers in the opposing faction, as long as that soldier is willing to sabotage, spy and kill enemies of the Shapers.

 

The Shapers still lack the ability to negotiate with the resistance. Perhaps if they had a 'sit-down' with the humans, Drayks, Drakons, and Eyebeasts, then perhaps they could come to a compromise. At the worst, they could attempt to negotiate a truce.

 

But the Shapers, a supposedly 'peaceful' people, won't do this. Quite simply, the Shaper Empire doesn't thrive on peace. It thrives on violence. They only know how to maintain control by brutally crushing anyone who objects to their totalitarian rule.

 

Quote:

While in the strict shaper ending, it takes deeper root, in the stalemate ending, I believe there is hope within the shapers themselves to overcome their hyperconservativism.

If that indeed is true, then the Rebellion is achieving its goal, isn't it? If extreme violence forces the Shapers to rethink their attitudes towards non-Shapers, then resistance has been successful.

[rantalot]

Suspicious Vlish do you think the rebellion is staying true to the ideas that set it in motion? Rebellions ideology as I remember was to free creations and people from shaper oppression. What is it now?

 

Would Litalia switch sides if she knew that the rebellion would have to resort to something like unbound? Just your opinion.

[Dikiyoba]

You don't need opinion. It's stated in the game. Litalia says:

 

Quote:

"There is so much we do not know. What their exact capabilities are. How many the drakons will make. But it doesn't matter, I suppose, as long as it keeps the Shapers from slaughtering us."

Dikiyoba.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
I intend to find out who has the most treasure, kill them, take it, and repeat the process.

(Hey, someone had to say it.)

I thought that this philosophy would be leading without question. Hey people stop pretending that you care about anyone but yourselves.

At least ET and Thuryl are honest about their self interest.

[rantalot]

I know that’s what she says now i am wondering if she would have switched sides at the beginning if she knew that unbound would be needed only for the SURVIVAL of the rebellion, not even a victory.

 

She has no choice now she is considered as bad as a drakon and that is pretty much the whole point of people who are disappointed in the rebels after G4. The rebels were always controversial, but they had a clear cut mission to free the world from shaper oppression. After the unbound who will see the rebels as liberators? True rebels have killed innocent bystanders before and that is an unfortunate reality of any war, but this is completely different. The strategy the rebels have chosen makes civilians prime targets.

 

The thread is about ideologies and the only ideology I now see in the rebels is the doctrine to keep forces on the mainland at all cost.

[Suspicious Vlish]

The civilians aren't being targeted... they are merely collaterol damage. Bad luck for them, I guess.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Akhari-Blaze tells the unbound to "destroy everything." Civilians are being targeted. The Rebellion is a terrorist organization, concerned only with bringing down the current regime, and willing to kill anyone who doesn't agree with them.

[Stillness]

I love Tullegolar's theories. He always manages to come way out from left field and blindside his opponent. Waylander, you should take him off ignore and not be so sensitive.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Now that we know that gazers reproduce sexually, we do have to ask how their young develop. Do gazers lay eggs?

Strictly speaking, all we know is that their process of reproduction is "very biological". Given how intensely solitary and territorial they are, and the fact that each of them seems to consist of multiple semi-independent minds, I can imagine them reproducing by budding. And I suppose if they can bud, they might also be able to fuse or recombine or shuffle themselves around.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Stillness:

 

Quote:

I love Tullegolar's theories. He always manages to come way out from left field and blindside his opponent. Waylander, you should take him off ignore and not be so sensitive.

This has nothing to do with sensitivity. I don't really care two hoots what Emp has to say. It's a free country.

 

However, I won't get lured into a debate with him. It's very time consuming, and nothing is ever achieved. It merely degenerates to Emp pretty much manipulating and re-interpreting the game to suit his pre-conceived axioms.

[Sir Spiff]

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
The Shapers still lack the ability to negotiate with the resistance. Perhaps if they had a 'sit-down' with the humans, Drayks, Drakons, and Eyebeasts, then perhaps they could come to a compromise. At the worst, they could attempt to negotiate a truce.[/QB]

Two points:

1) Did the rebels, especially the Drakons, even approach the Shapers diplomatically?

2) Throughout the entire game, the Shapers know the Drakons are creating a doomsday type weapon. What great power in their right mind would, through diplomacy, grant the enemy the time they need to complete a doomsday type weapon?

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
If that indeed is true, then the Rebellion is achieving its goal, isn't it? If extreme violence forces the Shapers to rethink their attitudes towards non-Shapers, then resistance has been successful.[/QB]

The human/servile half, perhaps, but when have heard the Drakons state their goals as "Destroy all Shapers"?

[Aeshi]

Quote:

Originally written by Sir Spiff:

1) Did the rebels, especially the Drakons, even approach the Shapers diplomatically?

Would the shapers even accept creations beyond their control into their soceity?probably not.

Also them letting your servile character live is because:

a)Thats just ONE servile,as opposed to a group of drakons/eyebeasts/drayks

b)So playing as a servile is possible in game.

Quote:

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

<snip>willing to kill anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Oh,and the shapers managing their empire by doing the same is ok?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I never said that. I'm perfectly fine with killing. I just want to make sure that the drakons don't get the moral high ground. Their massacres are far worse than the Shapers'.

 

Oh, and Stillness, how was I said a theory? Akhari-Blaze did say to destroy everything, that includes civilians.

[Student of Trinity]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Strictly speaking, all we know is that their process of reproduction is "very biological". Given how intensely solitary and territorial they are, and the fact that each of them seems to consist of multiple semi-independent minds, I can imagine them reproducing by budding. And I suppose if they can bud, they might also be able to fuse or recombine or shuffle themselves around.

So gazers hang out with their buddies. There still ought to be cute little soccer-ball-sized baby gazers, whose stare would give you an itch or something.

Where do you get the idea of semi-independent multiple minds? More gazers seem monomaniacal to me, as though they had rather less than one mind.

And I still like the idea of the spherical eggs.

Really, though, we just don't know anything about this. We have one gazer's claim that gazerkind reproduces biologically. I can imagine it lying out of sheer perversity.

What do we know about any creation reproduction, for that matter? A drayk in G2 claimed to have been 'born to two drayks', if I remember right; and there are young drayks in G3 on Gull Island. There is also a clawbug mother in G2, with eggs or hatchlings to defend, I think.

[Stillness]

Terrorists intentionally attack civilians for the sake of causing fear normally because their military might is insufficient to win, Emp. They hope to scare the enemy off, discourage, or punish them in that way because they can't win toe-to-toe. The rebellion attack does not fit that mold. The true target is shapers.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
They hope to scare the enemy off, discourage, or punish them in that way because they can't win toe-to-toe. The rebellion attack does not fit that mold. The true target is shapers.

What do you call the unbound then? Stratagy? The drakons can't win toe to toe, so they are going to massacre half a continent worth of people to spread fear instead. The Shaper's are their target? Too bad the Shapers are based on a totally different continent.

[Lord Safey]

The rebellion has committed every crime the shapers have, their loseing, and they wasteful political posturing. The shapers commited lots of crimes but if you ally your self to them the shapers can be quite helpful. If I join the rebellion I have to twist arms to get any help. Why on earth would I want to join the rebellion.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Where do you get the idea of semi-independent multiple minds? More gazers seem monomaniacal to me, as though they had rather less than one mind.

Well, I'm assuming the fact that sometimes a Gazer refers to itself in the plural and sometimes as "the Eye" isn't just some kind of linguistic peculiarity, but a reflection of their psychology.

[Sudanna]

Actually, the Gazers refer to themselves as "The Eyes," as in "The Eyes see all." This implies that they have either a Gazer collective, or that each of their eyes considers itself an independent entity owing allegiance to the central eye.

[Retlaw May]

Nazis again, Waylander? I am truly getting tired of your Nazi analogy. I don't agree with it but I need not argue since we have been over this so many times. But I will say a couple things just because I don't like to stay silent while others have all the fun.

 

1) Shapers really only do anything to you if you openly or actively oppose them.

 

2) Have you ever seen a poor person in a Shaper controlled city? I get the feeling that most people are prosperous under the Shapers.

 

3) Note that some upcoming Shapers like Alwan are extremely loyal, but talk about the need for reform in peace. It is because of the war that such reformers are shouted down by the conservatives.

 

4) If you truly think that your Nazi analogy is true for the Shapers, you should most readily accept ET's terrorist analogy with the Drakons/Rebels, which is much more fitting.

[Seneschal]

Shapers represent order at the expense of freedom. Rebels represent freedom at the expense of order. Taken to their logical extremes they represent stagnation and anarchy, neither of which is satisfactory.

 

Life necessitates a middle ground, a point which I believe is adequately made apparent in this series.

[rantalot]

Quote:

Shapers represent order at the expense of freedom. Rebels represent freedom at the expense of order.

The rebellion no longer represents freedom.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
1) Shapers really only do anything to you if you openly or actively oppose them.

Or learn shaping without their approval, or happen to be born a drayk...

Quote:

2) Have you ever seen a poor person in a Shaper controlled city? I get the feeling that most people are prosperous under the Shapers.

You're mixing up cause and effect here. Shapers have wealth and power, so they get to live in all the best places. We know that Shaper lands are sometimed affected by famines (remember Captain Zakary's story?); that doesn't happen to "prosperous" people.

Quote:

3) Note that some upcoming Shapers like Alwan are extremely loyal, but talk about the need for reform in peace. It is because of the war that such reformers are shouted down by the conservatives.

Well, that's a plausible excuse, I suppose. I wonder why the Shapers didn't bother to do anything much before the war. The historical sum total of their "reforms" prior to the rebellion seems to have been banning torturing creations and making them participate in blood sports, which is a start, I suppose, but not much of one.

Quote:

4) If you truly think that your Nazi analogy is true for the Shapers, you should most readily accept ET's terrorist analogy with the Drakons/Rebels, which is much more fitting.

So? Nelson Mandela was a terrorist too. Sometimes terrorism is the only way to get anybody to listen to you.

[Seneschal]

Quote:

Originally written by rantalot:

Quote:

Shapers represent order at the expense of freedom. Rebels represent freedom at the expense of order.

The rebellion no longer represents freedom.

Sure they do. The rebellion from the human's point of view represents the freedom of access to power that all of an underclass yearn for.

The rebellion from the drakon's point of view represent that most fundamentally anarchic concept of might makes right.

[rantalot]

I am making an assumption here so please don’t flame me. If Greta survives she will remember the battles with Shaper Monarch and the chances of shaping art being available to everyone will start to change fast. Or she doesn’t survive and the drakons will have to deal with several Shaper Monarch wanabees and quickly change the laws.

 

I didn’t pick this up from the story line so perhaps some one here can help me out. If the rebellion really is all about shaping being available to every one. Why wasnt every human in the base trained to use the geneforge?

[Suspicious Vlish]

Spiff:

Quote:

Two points:

 

1) Did the rebels, especially the Drakons, even approach the Shapers diplomatically?

The Shapers have been approached diplomatically in GF1 and GF2 (the Awakened), and their desire to be treated as equals was laughed at. And they haven't been barred from existence.

 

As for the Drakons and Drayks 'approaching the Shapers diplomatically', are you kidding? Their kind is barred from existence. The Shapers have routinely and systematically exterminated their kind. Diplomacy failed. Would it be reasonable to expect a Jew to 'diplomatically' approach the Germans during the Holocaust?

 

And once again, I stress:

 

"The Drakons make achieving peace difficult, but the Shapers make it impossible."

 

Quote:

2) Throughout the entire game, the Shapers know the Drakons are creating a doomsday type weapon. What great power in their right mind would, through diplomacy, grant the enemy the time they need to complete a doomsday type weapon?

So the only way to stop your 'enemy' from creating a doomsday device is by ATTACKING him? Um, huh?

 

Isn't that sort of counter productive? By attacking your opponent with overwhelming force, you're merely giving them incentive to develop highly destructive weapons to defend themselves.

 

Witness North Korea, or Iran. Who can blame these countries from scrambling to develop WoMD, after being placed on the 'axis of evil' by the world's only remaining, Christian, Capitalist, superpower?

 

Likewise, who can blame the Drakons for developing the Unbound, when the Shapers have pretty much sworn that not a single Drakon or Drayk should be allowed to exist? Alwan, perhaps the most liberal of Shapers in GF4, doesn't want to just eliminate all Rebels. He wants to eliminate all Drakonian and Drayk life!

 

I've said this time and time again. The best way to neutralize the Rebellion is via diplomacy. Grant the Creations autonomy, the humans self-determination, and the Drayks/Drakons the right to exist, and you effectively nullify the Rebellion's very reason to exist. There's no reason to fight, and no reason to develop and unleash the Unbound.

 

Any warmongering Drakons who wanted to disrupt the peace for personal gain would be eliminated by a combined force of Shapers and Rebels (witness the dilemma with Monarch...).

[Lord Safey]

Why accept diplomacy when your wining? Did the rebels try to engage in diplomacy when they where wining?don't think so. It was all crush the horrible

shapers. Don't think they are so horrible considering I have met more refugees complain about the rebellion then the shapers. People miss the stabilty and way of life shapers provided, all the rebelion has brought was destruction and considering the drakons haven't been quite about have dommion (where does that sound fimilar). As far as spareing some of the intellegent creations like rebel serivles, dryaks, and drakons. I wouldn't mind dealing with serivles or dryaks they seem more reasonable drakons are just arrogant and too stuborn.

[Synergy]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Where do you get the idea of semi-independent multiple minds? More gazers seem monomaniacal to me, as though they had rather less than one mind.

Well, I'm assuming the fact that sometimes a Gazer refers to itself in the plural and sometimes as "the Eye" isn't just some kind of linguistic peculiarity, but a reflection of their psychology.

I'm a colony of some fifty trillion cooperative cells, but I prefer to stick with "I" rather than "we." There are social benefits to not referring too often to oneself in the plural.

It's ambiguous in the case of the jellyfish which is a true colony, because "fish" can be both singular and plural. Do the jellyfish consider themselves as one or many?

-S-

P.S. I voted Trakovites: right idea, but presently still just a hopeless spoiler party.

[Men are from Slars]

Do you mean Man-O-War's, Synergy? Wikipedia tells me jellyfish are individuals, but some related animals are colonies.

[Synergy]

Hmm, that seems to be the case from what I can find too. How many years have I been reading or hearing how "jellyfish are colonies" now? I guess that goes to show how information gets dumbed down for much of the media.

 

-S-