Geneforge Political Spectrum

[Alorael at Large]

It's not the Trakovites' lack of power that makes them an ineffective faction. It's their insistence on the inherent evil of shaping. Shaping has done too much good as is just too potentially useful to be abandoned because it can be a weapon. Murdering all shapers doesn't make Trakovites any more endearing.

 

The Rebellion has its heart in the right place and its effects in all the wrong places. While I don't agree with hard-liner Shaper policies, I think the Shapers are the group with the level of organization and discipline that would allow them to change their position to one that handles shaping fairly and responsibly. Eventually they could be brought around to creations' rights without scorched earth warfare to accomplish it.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the world of Geneforge really just needs a Shaper with the right ideas and the brains to keep his mouth shut on them until he has enough power to start swaying other Shapers to his point of view. Change from within would be much more efficient and much less bloody.

[Suspicious Vlish]

If the Trakovites had some effective means of fighting the Shapers (eg. Powerful magic?), I might be tempted to side with them. However, I think it's crystal clear that one would be unable to defeat the Shapers without taking advantage of the Shaping craft. So I tend to side with the Rebellion.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Is it moral for a Trakovite to unleash any kind of destruction on his enemies? Isn't the whole point of being one of them to not destroy things?

[Nioca]

Considering that the first thing they ask you to do is destroy something (a canister, which I happily used instead), I'd say no. In fact, I think I smell a little bit of a Drakon conspiracy here. After all, what better way to turn the odds in your favor than to destroy all shaping, then pull a little bit of hidden shaping knowledge out from behind your back and use it to gain power over all lands, known and unknown. Pretty convenient, no?

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Let us look at the Trakovites we know.

 

Drew lives his life on the line trying to stop shaping. He wouldn't put so much at risk unless he really believed in what he was doing.

 

The Drayk wouldn't be able to shape, and therefore wouldn't be part of the conspiracy.

 

Khryk could have easily joined the Rebels and become very powerful. He chose not to, although they would love to have him because of his power.

 

Doesn't look like much of a backstabbing group does it.

[Lilith]

Mind you, Khyryk isn't a real Trakovite (by his own admission), and he will shape creations to defend himself if you attack him.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

There are only 2 real trakovites in the game, yes, but since he pretty much completely aggrees with them, he gets to count as one.

 

Also, at the beginning the Trakos will only get rid of the worst of the shaping, which pretty much means the Rebels and the Shapers.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
Drew lives his life on the line trying to stop shaping. He wouldn't put so much at risk unless he really believed in what he was doing.

The Nazis believed in what they were doing.

Quote:

Also, at the beginning the Trakos will only get rid of the worst of the shaping, which pretty much means the Rebels and the Shapers.

They want to end shaping, and to do so, they will have to kill all those responsible, to do that, they will have to get people on their side by promising to bring justice to those who started the war. First the Shapers, then the Rebels, then the soldiers who supported either side, then rogue creations, then creations, is there no end to who they could blame for the war's attrocities? If these extremists win, there will be no end to the persecutions. No end to the calls for blood.

[Randomizer]

The Rebels want to kill all the Shapers and their collaborators. Then the drakons will take over and rule over their Rebel "allies." We already can see in Khima-Uss how the drakons will run things.

 

The Shapers aren't much better with kill the Rebels and their collaborators. They define collaborators much more widely as seen by what happens in Dillame. In order to prevent this from ever happening again the serviles will be created with a willingness to die for the Shapers even though they know this is happening to them. Once everything is back to normal this incident will be hidden away like a barred island even if it means massive executions of all neutral witnesses.

[Alorael at Large]

Is it necessarily wrong to create serviles who are willing and eager to die for the Shapers? Assuming they are functional, happy, and incidentally altruistic in a very focused way, what makes their existence evil?

 

—Alorael, who thinks anything that's good enough for the Restaurant at the End of the Universe is good enough for him.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Once everything is back to normal this incident will be hidden away like a barred island even if it means massive executions of all neutral witnesses.

Worst plan ever. If the Shapers are smart, they will want to keep the war fresh in everyone's minds for the rest of time. After all, why would they want to erase their greatest triumph ever from history? Especially the rebel attrocities, they will want people to remember those so that they will support the Shaper regime, lest such things ever happen again. The problem with the old Shaper regime was that there was not enough fear to keep the people from rebelling. This war, if they win it, will be a blessing in disguise.

The Tullgolites would offer amnesty (and canisters) to any shaper that pledges allegiance to the empire. Trakovites will be given a chance to renounce their beliefs (and maybe wear a brand) else be executed for treason. Drakons will all have to die, however, their creation will not be barred, so I think we just barely escape being labeled as genocidal.

[Alberich]

I disagree completely with Jeff (and on this, if nothing else, actually agree with ET): self shaping is one of the major issues of the game, maybe the central moral issue. If you look to the future. As long as the decisionmakers are human, there is hope for the future, for moral progress (there's a new movie out about William Wilberforce; look him up to see what I mean). When the decisions are made by glowy egotists, there is none. "In peace, prepare for war; in war, prepare for peace."

 

Put me somewhere southwest of the Trakovites - my utter, utter, utter opposition to self-shaping is tempered by a willingness to make creatures, provided the creatures aren't so intelligent that I'd feel sorry for them at reabsorption. The Shaper idea of a Banned Creation List seems right to me. I'd put Serviles on it.

[Randomizer]

The Shapers will want the idea of the Geneforge and canisters gone forever. No one should know that there is any way but under Shaper control to learn shaping and even magic.

 

The idea that a Rebellion almost succeeded will only encourage others to try and learn from the mistakes.

[Lilith]

Well, according to the Shaper ending of G4, the Shapers do in fact choose to keep the details of the rebellion public as a reminder to future generations of the need to keep Shaping under strict control. It's implied that this is a break from their normal strategy of hushing up rebellions.

[Jeran Korak]

My stand.

 

Self-Shaping: To be exterminated

 

Creation Rights: Freedom for drakes and Gazers, Drakons to be free except biased and power-hungry ones (Think of Mortrax and Koth here)

 

Nija Halcyon, the peace-loving and awsomely powerful shaper, ruler of Delliame.

[Sudanna]

Drakons and Gazers must be exterminated. They are too egotistical and power-hungry to be trusted with life. They would never rest until the Shapers were dead or enslaved. Thankfully, they are utterly inferior to Shaper ingenuity.

[Alorael at Large]

My experience with gazers is limited to A4, but they seem less hostile than drakons. They're mostly very, very different from humans. I don't think humans and gazers would ever get along very well, but they could live happily apart much better than humans and drakons.

 

—Alorael, who is a bit confused. Motrax and Khoth aren't drakons, they're dragons. They're also neither power-hungry no biased, but if they're supposed to be examples of good dragons then Athron is fine too. And honestly, power-hungriness is no moral justification for extermination. The Shapers are, after all, astoundingly dedicated to the accumulation of power and authority, and Sulfras wants power without really being much of a problem for anyone until the Empire made the unfortunate decision to imprison her.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

This could just be a cultural misunderstanding, but gazers seem a bit more crazy than drakons. Drakons are just power hungry and greedy, gazers seem almost sadistic. In Geneforge 4 as well as the others, there is always at least one gazer that claims a single zone and enslaves any nearby creations with its mind. They serve no faction; sometimes they claim they just want to be left alone, sometimes they claim it is their goal to conquor the world. One constant is that you always end up wanting to destroy them due to their hostility and insanity.

 

If there were more of them and they worked together, they could become a greater threat than drakons.

[Retlaw May]

I think we've had the eyebeast/gazer debate before. I thought that overall, people thought Drakons would kill the gazers.

[The Duke]

Hi don't mind if I make a post do you?

 

Quote:

Originally written by This poster is not Thuryl.:

The Rebellion has its heart in the right place and its effects in all the wrong places. While I don't agree with hard-liner Shaper policies, I think the Shapers are the group with the level of organization and discipline that would allow them to change their position to one that handles shaping fairly and responsibly. Eventually they could be brought around to creations' rights without scorched earth warfare to accomplish it.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the world of Geneforge really just needs a Shaper with the right ideas and the brains to keep his mouth shut on them until he has enough power to start swaying other Shapers to his point of view. Change from within would be much more efficient and much less bloody.

There is a problem with this. That being that the Shapers have been in control for hundreds and hundreds of years (I think) and they still haven't changed their ways. They are very good and snuffing out independince and thats why its foolhardy to believe they'd ever change. I belive the rebellion is completely in the right. It is regretable that so many must die but if not now then we shall never be free from under the heel of the shapers. As to matters of drackon control...The drackons shall be crushed if they EVER attempt to take the place of the shapers.

[Sudanna]

Eh, you made a good point, so necromancy forgiven.

 

The Shapers are already shown as making concessions in the way of acceptance and independence. They accept you as an agent, despite you being Geneforge-warped, or even a Servile. If you do some quests for the Rebels, the Shapers won't attack you on sight. Admittedly, there aren't any annoying infinite-spawn no-option-but-to-attack Rebel forts, but that is strictly explained as border control.

 

The Rebels are partly in the right. Creations do need to be treated at least marginally better. The art of Shaping needs to be advanced at a far faster rate, and that is only possible by recruiting more Shapers, and being more liberal with the power of Shaping.

 

The problem with the Rebels is that they took it too far. The canisters allow anyone to gain the power of Shaping without earning it through the effort and discipline that guarantee that they will not misuse it. They wish complete and utter freedom for creations, which would equate to an army of rogues surrounding you on all sides, with your leaders forbidding oyu from defending yourself.

 

The Trakovites are afraid and weak. They are jealous of the power of the Shapers, and too fearful to become Rebels. They see what has become of their lives and lands because of the misuse of Shaping, but they are unable to realize that it is misuse.

 

This post was sponsored by late-night adrenaline and Comedy Central.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I think the Shapers have already lost to the Rebellion on principle. The Rebellion is fighting for creation rights, they want creations to be treated like normal people. If the Shapers were true to their beliefs, they wouldn't allow you (assuming you play as a servile) to help them. They abandoned their way of life when the going got tough, and that is an important Rebel victory.

 

On the flip side, the Rebellion has lost to the Shapers as well. They were for creations rights, but their system has degenerated into the drakons ruling over the other creations with an iron fist. Both sides are in the wrong, fighting for causes that no longer exist. Everyone is drifting towards the center of the spectrum. I hope in the next game, Jeff has all sides revert to reactionary policies.

 

Edit: Or Tullegolites.

[Sudanna]

ET, you missed the point. The Shapers were wrong. They needed to make that concession to the Rebels. It was an important turning point that changed them from the rigid and inflexible empire to a flexible one, with a greater hope of victory. They admitted they were wrong, and even if they maintain an enormous contempt for the warped Rebels, they recognize that they, too can be used.

[Randomizer]

You missed the point of the Trakovites. They recognize that shaping can be misused. That is why they want to eliminate it after see that centuries of Shaper control hasn't led to a way of preventing misuse. If the Shapers had been better at controlling their power instead of kill and deny it happened, then the Rebellion would never have happened.

 

The Rebellion frightens the Trakovite since it appears that the Drakons are out of control. They are the other extreme of too much freedom to shape and no care about the consequences. The Trakovites would probably be closer to the Rebels if the Drakon faction wasn't there and especially not in control.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

You missed the point of the Tullegolites. If the Shapers really wanted to protect the world from creation scum, then rather than ally with them, they would become more lax on their shaping restrictions. Instead of training more shapers to fill their thining ranks, and use canisters to augment their powers, they choose to ally with rogue lifecrafters.

 

But the rebels are just as bad. The drakons scum are like the Shapers in almost every way. Both sides are full of hypocrisy.

[Sudanna]

The Shapers reject canisters because, first of all, they have adverse psychological effects, and second of all, they are not earned. With canisters, anyone, anyone, can gain any power. A six year old could cast Acid Rain, or create a Kyshakk. Worse yet, a complete outsider, unaware of any kind of Shaping could use one by accident, and the power could unleash itself randomly, simply because the user lack the control or discipline to control it.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Who says they're not earned? If you're going to devote the time and resources of your faction to make canisters, you're not just going to give them to any idiot unless you're insane like Barzahl. If the Shapers legalized canisters, they would still control their distribution, probably being even more anal about it than they are about regular shaping. It can only improve their situation.

[Sudanna]

They aren't earned, in the sense that you did not learn them. Instead, you took an extremely expensive shortcut. The expense going into canisters far outweighs the benefits, which are the same as learning the spell, with some ego, addiction, and anger thrown in. Kind of like steroids.

 

Plus, you can never rule out the possibility of some random ignoramus stumbling over a canister and learning, oh, say. . . Charm.

[The Duke]

I see a lot of anty rebel in this. Key point is that canstirs shouldn't be used by either side. If they weren't nessisary to my survival I'd never had used them. I think of Litilia as a role model. She used tons of canastirs and became very powerful, but she retained her humanity.

The thing about drackons being too powerful is not neccisarly true. The rebel ending talks about you becomeing a powerful figure in the rebellion. By the ending of the war you should be so powerful that you can crush Ghaldring with a single fire bolt.

 

The Shapers deserve to die. They have commited numerious atriocitys! In my opinion this reminds me of Iraq. Evil leaders that keep order but with great cost. Idiot super power stumbles in and blows up everything. Only the rebellion had good intentions and Bush didn't.

[Alorael at Large]

Learning everything you know by canister seems like it could be a problem. You don't get all the lessons in when and why to do things along with how to do them. On the other hand, I just can't see the downside to giving people, say, greater intelligence through canisters. That's supposing canisters didn't make their users psychotic, anyway.

 

—Alorael, who is unaware of these "numerous atrocities" committed by the Shapers. This might be because he hasn't played most of the Geneforge games, but it seems like their major crimes are complete control and limiting access to shaping. It's not as though they routinely slaughter their own citizens. Life under the Shapers in fact seems rather prosperous and happy.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

One can earn canisters through merit. Who cares that the spell is not learned? It becomes a part of you, which is far superior than just learning it the old fashioned way. As for the random person stumbling upon a canister, well, if the Shapers can not deal with one of these every now and then, their regime doesn't deserve to exist.

 

Litalia maintaining her humanity is a myth. Have you talked to her? She is so arrogant she forgets you're in the room with her half the time. She can control her outbursts of anger but hey, so could Barzahl, and he was quite mad.

 

And Kernio, do you think the Rebels are free from guilt in this war? The Shapers merely want to restore order. When they take a town, such as Valeya, they protect it and the people in it. The Rebellion burns cities to the ground, releasing rogues into the wild, caring not for the inhabitants of the land. The Shapers are slightly fascist, but who isn't when your way of life is under attack and you're dealing with murderous scum? The Rebellion conducts war through chaos, causing more destruction and death in a few months than the Shapers have in their entire history.

[The Duke]

Obviously you are not in tune with the Shapers. They have commited genocide in the past and will again. Dryaks aren't the first creation ever barred you know. Also, how much blood do you think was shed with the Shapers took control of the WORLD??? They didn't just say,"Hey you mind letting me and my buddies rule your lives? Chee thanks." While the Rebel's methods may be dubbed as cruel they are neccisary. And you obviously haven't been in the same room as Shaftoe or Eliza. The Shapers care only about hoarding their power and they only use it when they see fit. The Rebels are acting in the best interests of the world.

 

The time of burning has come! The Shaper's tyranny shall end!!

[Lord Safey]

Not really the drakons are far worse then the shapers were. They see them selfs as ruleing the world talking to any drayk, servile, any seintient no drakon creature, that lives in driect contact with drakons. Shapers are trying to restore order, In the rebillion all I see is greedy tempts for power, political struggles, and madness. Do you honestly think they will stop with the Unbound. When ever the shapers created something like that it was by accident and they always try to quartine it or destroy it. The Drakons are determine to either rule the whole of earth or destroy it. Guess what made idea they will come up with next

[The Duke]

The drackons sending out the Unbound let the human forces regroup. We want to live in the world too. The human part of the rebellion will not let the drackons destroy the world. Also the drackons are far too arogent. In the rebel ending it says the drackons get ever more arrogant, but it also says you get realy powerful! So if drackons go over board we WILL hold them in check. After the Shapers are destroyed we will hunt down every last rogue!! Shapers quarintine leaving the people within the area to be butchered but we will save every life we can. Still winning is most important.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

There is no evidence of Shaper cruelty from before the Rebellion. They treated creations as inferior, sure, but they still fed and cared for them. There is no evidence of them having genocided other species, either. However, if they did, there was probably good reason. Similar to how we find it perfectly fine to genocide various species of virus and bacteria whenever we get the chance.

 

You should be happy to have the Shapers as the dominant power in the world. They protect people and send creations into battle so humans don't have to die instead. They give people serviles to work for them, ornks to eat, and even simple things like tools. They're not even that tyranical; mayors are almost always non-shapers.

 

Eliza and Shaftoe were fighting on the front, not to mention they were permanently made part of a stationary machine. I would expect them to be a little grumpy considering their situation.

 

As for the Rebellion, they care not for the lives of civilians. You would be hard pressed to find rebels that even care about their fellow soldiers. The drakons let Southforge fall. They burn cities, ravage farmland... they are everything that people hate about war.

Quote:

So if drackons go over board we WILL hold them in check. After the Shapers are destroyed we will hunt down every last rogue!!

First, the rebellion will not stand a chance without the drakons leading them. If they did win the war, they would not be able to throw of their reins. Second, all rebel creations are rogues, will you kill the serviles as well?

[The Duke]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
There is no evidence of Shaper cruelty from before the Rebellion. They treated creations as inferior, sure, but they still fed and cared for them. There is no evidence of them having genocided other species, either.
They protect people and send creations into battle so humans don't have to die instead.

You would be hard pressed to find rebels that even care about their fellow soldiers. The drakons let Southforge fall. They burn cities, ravage farmland... they are everything that people hate about war.

First, the rebellion will not stand a chance without the drakons leading them. If they did win the war, they would not be able to throw of their reins. Second, all rebel creations are rogues, will you kill the serviles as well?

Several problems here. First the drackons did not let Southforge fall. Southforge was surrounded and there're was no way the drackons could reach it in time. Second about rebels hardly caring if their fellows died. Where did you hear that? Look at Khur for example. Never forgave himself. You call that hardly caring. Third about shapers using creations instead of humans thats also not true. It cleary states in the game that Shaper armys are always a mix of creation and human. Fourth, there is evidence of Shaper cruelty before the Rebellion. Remeber Sucia Island. Many serviles there were inteligent and loyal yet they were all exterminated! How can you say that the Shapers did nothing bad. I admit that the Rebellion isn't perfect but its kinks can be worked out after the Shapers are gone. Pluss the Drackons aren't the leaders of the Rebellion. They lead the creation side only! The human leader is Litlia. Also the rebel creations aren't rogues. Rogues attack everything in sight. Finnaly I must say that what we create is OUR responsibilty! How can you in good consence say that servile are not intitled to any rights? The Shaper system is flawed!

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Not all the Sucia Island serviles were killed. It says in the endings that the loyalist ones were taken back to safety. As for the rest, they had to be killed, they were rogues. As for Shaper armies, they probably include more humans now because the Rebellion has been ruthlessly murdering the shapers themselves.

 

Litalia is a drakon lapdog. She is Akhari Blaze's servant. The drakons only let her call herself the human leader so that they don't have to deal with the humans themselves because they don't like them. The Rebellion says it supports creation rights but how come drakons treat all other creations below them like crap?

 

You say a rogue is something that attacks everything in sight? Well, there aren't any rogues that attack their own kind, right? Serviles don't attack their own kind, but they will attack humans that they don't like. That sounds like a rogue to me.

 

For the record, I do not support either side, they are both weak in supporting what they believe in. The rebellion is weak because it is led by creations, and the Shapers are weak because they ally with rogue agents and refuse to take shaping to the next level.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

Not all the Sucia Island serviles were killed. It says in the endings that the loyalist ones were taken back to safety. As for the rest, they had to be killed, they were rogues.

That is the G1 ending, but is that the ending that brought us to G4? I don't think so. Too many Obeyers were in with the Awakened in G2. I think most were killed along with most Awakened and Takers.

 

It would have been interesting to keep them around, though. Instead of having to invent Kiki and the rest of her breed, the Shapers could just use Obeyer serviles.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Aeshi]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
There is no evidence of Shaper cruelty from before the Rebellion. They treated creations as inferior, sure, but they still fed and cared for them.There is no evidence of them having genocided other species, either.

The Drayks,Drakons,Gazers and Freeborn Serviles might disagree with you there

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
However, if they did, there was probably good reason.

Yeah,the reason being they won't submit to shaper rule or (for creations) are having independant thoughts.

Shaper 1:A group of serviles are having independant thoughts!

Shaper 2:We better kill them then!

*shapers go to serviles and blast them to bits with spells*

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
You should be happy to have the Shapers as the dominant power in the world. They protect people and send creations into battle so humans don't have to die

So they can't care for creations too much!

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: They give people serviles to work for them, ornks to eat, and even simple things like tools.

Ornks and tools are ok but they can't care for serviles that much if they make serviles work for others (and the shapers didn't seem to care about Master Thell overworking his serviles.)

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: They're not even that tyranical

Oh really?*points to the cages in Dillame and then to the dead servile at the bottom of the (whipping?) post in Valeya Ruins*

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Seviles like working for their masters. Just ask any non-tainted one. When given the chance to live in the wild, they will often have difficulty living on their own, and yearn for the safe loving arms of their masters. The ones that succeed away from shaper care often end up crazy and/or violent.

 

The cages were only made necessary by war. They wouldn't need them if it weren't for the traitors looking to undermine peace and order.

 

As for drayks and freeborn serviles, they are all rogues. They have natural violent tendancies, they kill innocents and even fight amongst each other. They were given the chance to live on their own on Sucia Island, and what did they do? They formed factions and started attacking each other! They are barely capable of reason, they are greedy, they are hostile, they must either submit or be killed simply to protect the innocent in the world.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Tarrasque:
The Drayks,Drakons,Gazers and Freeborn Serviles might disagree with you there

The Drakons and the Gazers fired the first shot. They can't blame the Shapers for retaliating. Frankly, each of the above is intelligent enough to comprehend the consequences to their own actions. Doing something as large as the rebellion, it's foolish to think that there wouldn't be repercussions from their rash actions.

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(and the shapers didn't seem to care about Master Thell overworking his serviles.)

Ironically, the blame for this lies with the rebels. If they hadn't decided to start butchering people when they did, Thell would probably have been taken care of a long time ago.

[Aeshi]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Seviles like working for their masters. Just ask any non-tainted one. When given the chance to live in the wild, they will often have difficulty living on their own, and yearn for the safe loving arms of their masters.

Ok you're right there

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
The ones that succeed away from shaper care often end up crazy and/or violent.

True in the case of the Circle of the Drayk but the rebellion ones are only violent because they believe the shapers will just break them down into essence if they capture them (which they probably would)

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
As for drayks and freeborn serviles, they are all rogues. They have natural violent tendancies, they kill innocents and even fight amongst each other.

For serviles there are a few like that I will admit (Sandia and the Circle of the drayk)

As for drayks there are some exceptions.Shorass and Wyx (From GF2) didn't exactly go around declaring war on others did they?

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
They were given the chance to live on their own on Sucia Island, and what did they do?They formed factions and started attacking each other!

Humans have split into factions (Such as the Rebels and the Shapers) and we attack each other,Are we really any better?

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
They are barely capable of reason, they are greedy, they are hostile, they must either submit or be killed simply to protect the innocent in the world.

True for some but there have been/are exceptions (Pirik,Magda and Learned Pinner from GF2)

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Tarrasque:
Humans have split into factions (Such as the Rebels and the Shapers) and we attack each other,Are we really any better?

No human would have ever even thought about rebelling against the Shapers until the drakons came along and messed everything up. The Shapers stand for peace and order. The rebels are using chaos and destruction as a way of getting what they want. The question is, what do they want? Equal right for creations? The drakons are anything but equal to the other creations in the Rebellion.

Are they fighting to survive? They probably could have lived perfectly happy, reclusive lives if they chose to hide away from Shaper civilization. But no, Ghaldring decided to go on the offensive. He is fighting a war of aggression for land and power, yet he has tricked suckers like you guys into thinking he fights for equality and against Shaper tyranny, when really he just wants to be a tyrant himself.

[Sudanna]

The ideal setup would be: Intelligent creations such as the Drakons, Drayks, Gazers, etc. having equal rights if they wish it. They still must live semi-subservient to the Shapers, and nobody will hesitate to destroy them at the first sign of hostility. They will live in a specially formed territory, and allowed to die out.

 

Shaping should be volunteer only. All who wish to join, can, but they undergo rigorous psychological and physical tests to be admitted. Serviles who are not Shaped are allowed to join the other independent creations in their pseudo-freedom. All creations deemed by the Shaper Council to be safe continue to be created, but Serviles are shaped only with complete obedience.

 

The Trakovites are exterminated. Naturally.

 

Mind you, this is simply the arrangement that would appear to be the best accepted by all sides, without undue bloodshed. It is not the best or most secure.

[The Duke]

Ok nothings perfect. I'd like to point out again the point of the Shapers taking over the world. How do you think the world became the Shapers. Also think of all the...I got to go. Anyway no one is perfect.

[Sudanna]

And how do you think the world might become entirely Rebellion? Diplomacy? Drakons? Not gonna happen.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

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No human would have ever even thought about rebelling against the Shapers until the drakons came along and messed everything up.

And who created the drakons, hmm? A human named Barzahl. Slipping creations and items off of Sucia Island was the beginning of the rebellion. And the fact that the rebellion found so many followers so quickly means that there was plenty of rebellious thought, there was just no way to act on it.

 

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Are they fighting to survive? They probably could have lived perfectly happy, reclusive lives if they chose to hide away from Shaper civilization.

Where would they live, and for how long could they live there before they were discovered? Shaper civilization is expanding. They'd have to compete for living space in the most inhospitable places against other escaped creations, bandits, and humans who don't like Shapers, always afraid of being discovered and killed. Can you imagine how hard it would be to grow food, or how often you'd have to defend youself, or how difficult it would be to find a mate, or how many children wouldn't survive to adulthood? Not exactly an inviting proposition.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

What is stopping them from simply living under Shaper rule? Apparently, it isn't overly oppressive to the average citizen, other than reduced prices for Shapers. The only thing worth complaining about is the restriction of magic.

 

As for the creations, there's plenty of unexplored terrain, especially on Terrestria. You can always pick an area to defend, provided that it's far away enough from any towns.

[The Duke]

Anyone remember Geneforge 2? Thats exactly what they did.

[Sudanna]

And, they would have been fine if they wren't inherently violent and terraforming the land carelessly. If Barzahl hadn't smuggled canisters off of Sucia, then he wouldn't have gone insane, he wouldn't have broken away from the Shapers, the Takers wouldn't have broken away from him, the Drakons would have remained drayks, and nothing would have happened! So you can blame him, or Zakary at least, for not taking appropriate action. That's where your precious Rebellion has it's roots: a recklessly power-hungry egomaniac. Worse yet, Tully likes him.