Shapers Moderate Alignment[G5]

[Nevermore]

What series of quest i have to do you to be a Moderate Shapers?

Astoria is rebel right?

What is the level for Storm Plains (and wehre are they and where're Stormhold?).

Whre ic an find Alwan???

[Uberdhizon]

Alwan is in Stormhold. Stormhold is in the Storm Plains. Astoria is not rebel, she just wants peace with the rebels. The storm plains are through Lerman's Pass or Kratoa Kel.

[pitchblack]

Uber - NO! The cake is not a lie.

(And please, change that. That is really old.)

[Uberdhizon]

Quote:

please, change that.

Why? And what authority do you have to make me do that? None? Too bad.

[Acky]

No need to be rude.

 

I think your the first person to actually use a spoiler tag as a signature.

[Uberdhizon]

Sorry. My signature just gets edgy when it feels threatened.

 

Whispered: No! Ow! Don't bite!

[Sleeping Dragon]

Astoria responds better if you have a high reputation with the rebels. I found this a bit disturbing, and I felt bad that I had to work for the warmongering rebels for the majority of the game in order to get her more peaceful ending. I imagine I'll feel the same way when I go for the Trakovite ending. Jeff really should have had those factions require a neutral reputation, you know?

[Uberdhizon]

I agree.

[Acky]

I don't.

[Uberdhizon]

No one agrees with me...

The proof:

Quote:

NO! The cake is NOT a lie!

See?

[Alorael at Large]

Please try to stay a bit on topic in these threads. Signature arguments can be kept in PMs.

 

—Alorael, who also thinks the Trakovites definitely need their own reputation meter since their opposition to shaping is rather unique. Astoria does seem rather like a rebel in all outlooks except actually wanting to overthrow the Shapers. She supports creations' rights, (some) more access to information and power, and a relaxation iron discipline and control.

[Uberdhizon]

Astoria is in a very strange position for her beliefs.

[Lilith]

The reputation scale makes a little more sense if you simply think of it as pro-Shaper and anti-Shaper. The Trakovites are in an alliance of convenience with the rebels right now anyway.

[Archaeolagent]

It makes even more sense if you think of it as pro-creation rights and anti-creation rights. Astoria, the Trakovites and the Rebels all support creation rights, to greater or lesser degrees. Alwan and Taygen categorically deny them.

 

From G2 on there have really been two continua, one for attitude towards creations & shapers, and one for restrictions placed on shaping. We have something like this:

 

<--- Cruel to Creations ------ Creations Subordinate ------ Creations Equal ------ Destroy Shapers --->

 

<--- Eradicate Shaping ------ Tight Regulations ------ Light Regulations ------ Unleash All Power --->

 

Cruel to Creations, Eradicate Shaping: ---

Cruel to Creations, Tight Regulations: Taygen

Cruel to Creations, Light Regulations: Rawul

Cruel to Creations, Unleash All Power: Barzites

 

Creations Subordinate, Eradicate Shaping: ---

Creations Subordinate, Tight Regulations: Obeyers (Rydell), Loyalists (Aodare, Rahul, Alwan)

Creations Subordinate, Light Regulations: Zakary

Creations Subordinate, Unleash All Power: ---

 

Creations Equal, Eradicate Shaping: Trakovites (Khyryk, G5 Litalia)

Creations Equal, Tight Regulations: Awakened (Ellhrah), Astoria

Creations Equal, Light Regulations: Awakened (Pinnar)

Creations Equal, Unleash All Power: Trajkov

 

Destroy Shapers, Eradicate Shaping: ---

Destroy Shapers, Tight Regulations: ---

Destroy Shapers, Light Regulations: Takers (Gnorrel)

Destroy Shapers, Unleash All Power: Rebels (Ghaldring, Greta, G3 Litalia)

 

I'm not entirely sure Trajkov is in the right place, but it's my best guess from memory. This is not a perfect chart: for example, the G1 Takers did not actually want to destroy the shapers as an end in itself, just to fight them to secure rights for all creations. Greta's personal opinions seem to align best with G2 Awakened, but her political affiliations and some of her actions are aligned with the Rebels. And whether Astoria actually intends full equality is questionable. But this chart should be a decent approximation.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

I'm not entirely sure Trajkov is in the right place

The Sholai occasionally used serviles as target practice, which would probably put them in the same camp as the Barzites.

[Archaeolagent]

Didn't Trajkov end up establishing a rule that was kind to creations though, in his ending? Perhaps he should go under 'Creations Subordinate.'

[Taliesin]

Hm. Could be. I never saw that particular ending.

[Dikiyoba]

Trajkov didn't advocate using serviles as target practice. He just had a lot of psychotic canister-addicts under his command. The Trajkov ending results in the Takers getting important positions in his empire. Dikiyoba thinks he's in the right spot.

[Taliesin]

True... I also vaguely remember that he said something about the Shaper treatment of intelligent creations being an abomination. So yes, right spot.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

The reputation scale makes a little more sense if you simply think of it as pro-Shaper and anti-Shaper. The Trakovites are in an alliance of convenience with the rebels right now anyway.

It would make sense, but it doesn't always play out that way. It's especially inaccurate for the questions about how to treat creations and nearly all reputation changes with Trakovites.

—Alorael, who finds it somewhat funny that no one wants to eradicate both Shapers and shaping. You'd think it would be popular with someone. Really disaffected serviles? Extreme Trakovites?

[Uberdhizon]

I agree. Everyone who once knew how to shape should die, their writings should die, and the canisters should be destroyed. Then, effectively, we have unrung a bell.

[Serene Tempest]

So the destroyers should all commit suicide for the greater good when their work is complete?

[pitchblack]

Yeah, right. They should, but come on, when they're at the top of gthe heap, do you really think that they're going to step down.

 

*Trumpets Blaring* "All hail the new conquerors, who have destroyed the oppressive reaign of the Shapers and the maniac Rebels, and have come to rule benevolently over us!"

 

That is more whats going to happen.

[Feo Takahari]

Originally Posted By: pitchblack

Yeah, right. They should, but come on, when they're at the top of gthe heap, do you really think that they're going to step down.

*Trumpets Blaring* "All hail the new conquerors, who have destroyed the oppressive reaign of the Shapers and the maniac Rebels, and have come to rule benevolently over us!"

That is more whats going to happen.

Very Soviet, isn't it?

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Uber Unbound

I agree. Everyone who once knew how to shape should die, their writings should die, and the canisters should be destroyed. Then, effectively, we have unrung a bell.

The Shapers tried this in GF1 with the Geneforge and canisters. Judging from the entire series, it wound up blowing up in their collective faces rather spectacularly, despite their best attempts to hide all evidence of their existence. And that was just two aspects of Shaping. Try to hide all Shaping forever? Someone better hurry up and invent FTL-travel so people can get off the planet when the essence hits the fan.

Course, wouldn't that be something. Wingbolts on a Starship!

[Archaeolagent]

Starship Shock Troopers?

[Alorael at Large]

...vs. the Clawbugs!

 

—Alorael, who can see a potential solution. The problems that started in G1 were all due to insufficient destruction of documentation and equipment. If the shapers had been aware that they weren't coming back to finish their work they could have made sure no one else had access to it either.

[Feo Takahari]

On the other hand, if they came up with this thing, what's to say some other Shaper researchers wouldn't develop it independently? With no history of it, there'd be no knowledge of why such a mistake shouldn't be repeated. Ugh . . . Ultimately, blame Jeff for creating Genia.

[Luca]

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

On the other hand, if they came up with this thing, what's to say some other Shaper researchers wouldn't develop it independently.

Independently? The shapers are one, if someone develops something new you would most probably be required to send the information back. Else you would appear to be withholding information. That would most probably result in death.

Originally Posted By: Alorael

The problems that started in G1 were all due to insufficient destruction of documentation and equipment

Yes, it was also unbelievably stupid to leave serviles behind. After hundreds of years even the lowest of single-celled forms of life would have shown some signs of advancement.

It is surprising to think that as tight as the shapers were before the rebellion they let something like several hundred serviles slip to become rogue. No wonder they created the dryak.
That is all.

[Serene Tempest]

Maybe all the shapers on the island had shaped all sanity out of themselves and had been plotting to return to the island behind the other shaper's backs?

[*i]

More likely is that the Shapers were a lot less centralized and their culture far less strict in those days -- centuries before the series. One could envision many reasons for Sucia to be hurriedly abandoned and the Serviles abandoned and no one returned for the Serviles.

 

The most likely is that they did not see Serviles (or any creation) as a threat. Let them stay there until they decide to return. Over generations, the knowledge of what is on Sucia is lost other than that it is barred.

 

Another cause could be a war or internal revolution could have called the Shapers of Sucia back to the mainland. These Shapers lost and during the takeover, knowledge of Sucia was lost as well. Of course, this is just "speculation" and far from cannon, but there could be justification beyond incompetence. This rationale would make a far more interesting story than the previous one.

[Uberdhizon]

Makes sense.

[Luca]

Originally Posted By: *i

Another cause could be a war or internal revolution could have called the Shapers of Sucia back to the mainland.

Interesting perhaps, but a note in...Kaz..ak? Whatever the Taker town was seems to show this is not what happened.
That is all.

[Uberdhizon]

The taker town was Kasg.

[Sleeping Dragon]

So close. Try Kazg.

[Luca]

Aside from this, does anyone recall the note 'm referencing?

Tia.

[A less presumptuous name.]

I remember that the canisters killed the serviles. Since the island was barred, the only unexpected thing was the sh... something people from the distant continent. They shot down the PC from GF1, and they/the PC led to the rebellion, since the serviles couldnt get off the island or use canisters.

well, that and the drayks (who were, if i remember, content enough to have sucia to themselves)

[Guest Anonymous]

Sholai.

[Taliesin]

Oops, forgot to log in.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nebulan

Aside from this, does anyone recall the note 'm referencing?

Yes.

Originally Posted By: Kazg

Inside the cabinet, you find an old, dusty scroll. Unrolling it carefully to keep it from crumbling, you read the faded words on the page. It is a proclamation, issued about two hundred years ago:
"By declaration of Corata, Danette, and the Council of Shapers, Sucia Island is hereby declared interim Barred. All research is to be ended. All Shapers are to evacuate the island by one week from today.
"All work on the Geneforge is to cease immediately, and it is to be deactivated. All other research is to be held and products, instruments, and notes are to be stored.
"The Barring will be ceased or declared full at such time as the full council of Shapers is able to query the relevant researchers."
The proclamation is signed Corata. You have no idea whether the Barring of Sucia Island was ever declared to be official and permanent. You'd never even heard of Sucia Island before you landed here.

Dikiyoba.