Playing as Evil (Spoilers?)

[Toby-Linn]

I've decided the next time I play Avernum 5 to play evil characters throughout.

 

That means taking Gladwell's geas, turning in Shankar, joining Darksite Loyalists, killing dragon under Harkin's Landing, stealing Anama Papers, stealing dragon's egg, killing Gladwell, etc.

 

Now this may be strange to some, but I've never played any Avernum game as an evil person, I've basically played nice all the time. Helping innocent towns, not killing children, not turning towns hostile, etc.

 

My question is should I do quests for people? That is, helping people out by doing quests for them seems like a good adventurer type thing to do. But there are quests I have to do to win the game, plus they do give rewards. Also, is there anything I should know about playing bad characters?

 

(Sorry if these questions seem weird, I'm just not used to playing evil characters. Avernum 5 has this whole other side though that I didn't get to take part in, which messes with my Avernum OCD

 

For the OCD reference, see post under the Avernum Trilogy forum:

http://www.ironycentral.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=107975#Post107975

[madrigan]

I've never played Evil, but one of the typical characteristics of Evil is unmoderated selfishness. I think evil characters would still do quests for people, just to get the reward. Maybe evil characters would do the quest, get the reward, and then kill the quest-giver and take all their stuff.

 

Plus in game terms it will be harder to complete the game if you only do the essential quests.

[Lilith]

Even serial killers can usually hold down a day job. If there's a reward in it for you, doing it doesn't make you any less evil.

 

There's no real need to indiscriminately murder entire towns, either, since there's not much reason to do so most of the time. Evil doesn't mean psychotic: there's no need to kill people unless they have something you want or they really annoy you.

[Toby-Linn]

Hmm.....the Anama annoy me.

 

Also, I was thinking, what would be more evil? To help the Vahnatai against Muck? or help Highground? or help no one and just screw everybody over?

 

I wonder if I would still do Dionicio's quests? Obviously he wouldn't be helping me in the final battle though.

[madrigan]

Doing the right thing for the wrong reason is not a moral act. (My college philosophy prof would be surprised that I still remember Kant.)

 

I think helping Highground is the most evil. The vahnatai have a legitimate gripe, even if they want you to slaughter a town in order to solve their problem. Whereas the Highgrounders are just bastards. I think there is a way to complete all three quests and get all three rewards.

 

You could approach it from the perspective that your characters want to promote the most evil arrangements possible, or you could decide that they are just mass murderers. The mass murderer approach seems much less interesting, and much less functional in game terms. Killing everyone doesn't always get you the best reward.

[Randomizer]

There's nothing wrong with helping someone out and then killing them after the reward.

[Dikiyoba]

Turning in Shanker isn't too terribly evil. It's what you are expected to do as a loyal Empire soldier. Killing Gladwell doesn't seem horribly evil either--he is pretty twisted, after all. But insult people, steal everything you can, kill people if they ask for mercy, and enjoy what you're doing when you slaughter your enemies. Your PCs be truly evil in no time.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Toby-Linn]

Thanks for the tips!

 

I guess it's harder being evil than I thought

[Evnissyen]

I don't know about killing Shanker, she's too useful. Though Lark is much more useful than her.

 

As for me, I played the loyal soldier last time, so next time I play I'm joining the IRA... I mean the Darkside Loyalists. So while I'm not sure I plan to be evil, exactly, I do plan to be a traitor.

 

And since I took Gladwell's Geas the last time, I have to not take it this time. I'll also have to join the Anama since, because of the geas, they wouldn't let me receive their own blessed geas.

 

Oh... and I plan to play it this time with just two characters, not the three characters I usually play with.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

I don't know about killing Shanker, she's too useful. Though Lark is much more useful than her.

Plus, if you killed her, she'd go from Shanker to Shankee.

[Evnissyen]

Okay, I can't possibly beat that one.

[Toby-Linn]

Hmmm, I guess I'd have to turn her in after I finished all the quests for her.

 

Also all the quests on the island itself as I probably wouldn't be able to come back. Maybe Cienna gives a quest to kill her, in which case the whole island would turn hostile.

[madrigan]

Most of the main villains in Avernum aren't purely evil. Garzahd and Hawthorne are evil, but Rentar and Dorikas are more complex. I think it would be more interesting to play one of those more complex evils, which would also be more realistic. Most RL people we think of as evil -- dictators, mass murderers, serial killers -- do not think of themselves as evil. Perhaps you could stipulate that you start off as good, and then slowly become evil as you perform evil acts and have to invent more and more complicated rationalizations for those acts.

[Toby-Linn]

Well, I have a good rationalization right now...there I am, just an underpaid empire soldier, sent down to this dank series of tunnels where everyone hates me.

 

There I have to perform thankless and mindless quests for them so I can get permission to travel further.

 

There I am cleaning up their messes and they hate me. It wouldn't be hard to switch to evil.

[Randomizer]

You only get one chance to turn in Shankar. If you do then she no longer gives you quests or training.

[Toby-Linn]

So I just can't talk to Cienna then, until I finish doing Shankar's quests.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Toby-Linn

So I just can't talk to Cienna then, until I finish doing Shankar's quests.

Will Shanker even give quests if doesn't tell her (oddly alot mages are females on A5) that didn't tell to Empire about her?

[Dikiyoba]

She does give quests, just not training. Nothing dramatic happens if you turn her in, either, as far as Dikiyoba knows.

[Earth]

so nothing major loss since unlock doors is prolly only useful spell she sells and maybe icy rain.

[Dikiyoba]

The skills she sells are very valuable, though.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Student of Trinity]

She sells chic skills by the sea shore.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

The skills she sells are very valuable, though.

Dikiyoba.

True that but if money burns in pockets then those can be bought at higher price elsewhere but then again spellcasters aren't that effective in battles so tough decision.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Earth2025

True that but if money burns in pockets then those can be bought at higher price elsewhere but then again spellcasters aren't that effective in battles so tough decision.

In what way are spellcasters not effective in battles?

[Birk777]

Indeed, I've always found that spellcasters tend to be more effective than anyone else. Although I usually play singleton games, I've decided my next game will be two mages and two priests.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

Originally Posted By: Earth2025

True that but if money burns in pockets then those can be bought at higher price elsewhere but then again spellcasters aren't that effective in battles so tough decision.

In what way are spellcasters not effective in battles?

Spells not doing same amount damage as they could do if had trained in spellcraft etc.

[Evnissyen]

In fact, regarding Shanker: I think that maybe reporting her to Cienna should also account for something a little more than some generous XP from Cienna against some lost jobs and training options. (Sure, I could wait and report her later, but her jobs extend too far into the game, and I have to try to protect her in order to get the training options.)

 

In fact: Is there any significantly comparable value at all in turning Shanker in? When I weigh one against the other... it seems to me that only a fool would turn her in, even for somebody who's doing a first run (considering that you get an idea, when you first meet her, that this is a valuable person to befriend). It seems to me there should be a stronger benefit to turning her in.

 

[Lilith]

I'm pretty sure that the decision is heavily biased toward turning a blind eye to Shanker on purpose. The game is trying to coax you into sympathising with the Avernites even when it means bending the rules.

[Evnissyen]

Hmm.... In that case: when it comes to sympathies toward Avernites... it might've been nice if the game had allowed me to realize some of the romantic feelings I found myself developing toward Shanker. I mean... the dreads were nice, but being an eccentric rebel with dreadlocks is even better, and being a genius eccentric rebel with dreadlocks is just beyond my ability to resist.

[Lilith]

whaaaaat ;_;

[Men are from Slars]

Where is TM when you need him. Sheesh

[Alorael at Large]

If you're going to go native, why do it in the dank, dark caves? Couldn't you find a nice place in Vantanas to disappear to?

 

—Alorael, who thinks Shanker's appeal wore off about when he first attempted the machine repair quest. She's anti-adventurer!

[BlueRivets]

That quest was awesome, hiding behind the machine hopping a shade won't pop up and destroy me.

[Evnissyen]

...And you call yourselves gamers....

 

As for dangerous assignments... hell, she's just being playful.

 

I know when an NPC is flirting with me.

[Callie]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

...And you call yourselves gamers....

As for dangerous assignments... hell, she's just being playful.

I know when an NPC is flirting with me.

Well we'll leave you alone with your...scripted date. It's computer dating at a whole new level.

[Feo Takahari]

Originally Posted By: Excalibur

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

...And you call yourselves gamers....

As for dangerous assignments... hell, she's just being playful.

I know when an NPC is flirting with me.

Well we'll leave along with your...scripted date. It's computer dating at a whole new level.

Some of us were unpleasantly reminded of Mass Effect for a moment.

[BlueRivets]

Blue butt power, god that game was ridiculous.

[wicked]

i think "The Cultists" quest by priestess Bela of Highgrounds was evil too

 

all the cultists were friendly,& i didn't want to kill the slith cultist who breeds basilisks in Giant's cavern,since i had a slith in my group.

&,the last cultist near Melanchion's islands was difficult to kill,especially when she wept in the end & told me to take the items in there after i killed all her monsters

 

&,killing Fae,near Shanker's tower region was difficult too.Her last dialog was pitiful

[Earth]

so its okay to make more monsters like those cultists did?

 

fae wasn't necessary to kill, you could have let her go too and still same reward.

[Feo Takahari]

Originally Posted By: Earth2025

so its okay to make more monsters like those cultists did?

Hey, we don't want to wreck the ecosystem, do we? Seriously, I killed those things that ate their guardian, but let the rest of the guardians and monsters live, and when clearing a path for Dionicio I just outran all the monsters. As for Fae, well, I confess I killed her--in real life folks like her should probably go on trial, but when the choice is execution or a pardon . . .

Edit: come to think of it, the Circle of Life quest was rather unusual. Normally when we're given such a quest in an RPG, we get the option to kill the quest-giver instead. (I considered doing so anyways, but decided not to piss off Highground.)

[Earth]

if you killed giant's queen you pissed off highground.

 

killing those cultists and their creatures wouldn't harm ecosystem since those monsters appeared to be everywhere at a5.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Earth2025

if you killed giant's queen you pissed off highground.

This isn't true. It prevents you from completing one of their quests if you haven't done it already, but it doesn't make them hostile.

[Øther]

In fact, since there are good rewards from Highground and Muck, after I go through the vahinatti lands, I make the giants to agree for messing with Muck, go to Highground, get the reward, then go back, kill the qween, and Get Muck's reward.

[Sss-Chah]

pretty much anything can be seen as evil (or at least unethical), depending on your reasoning. just do stuff for the wrong reason.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

This isn't true. It prevents you from completing one of their quests if you haven't done it already, but it doesn't make them hostile.

no its not except that archer guy attacks party near muck but that won't affect highground relations.