Factions

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Which faction out of all the Geneforge games do you find most convincing? By convincing I mean which one do you really feel you wound most like to join, and why? Though I have beaten the games with every possible ending, I was never quite satisfied with the way things worked out. I found no faction particularly convincing, yet I was unable to gain the power and prestige I desired by working alone.

 

I suppose that I prefer the Obeyers. I approve of their groveling. However, the Obeyers of Sucia were contaminated. I would feel obligated to give them rights if they actually had the intelligence and courage to ask me for them, and so I feel creations should be destroyed before they are capable of such things. I also use the geneforge, simply because I hate the Shaper Council and their backward ways. I long to see them fall. Unfortunately, it seems the only ones capable of bringing them down are the Takers, and I would side with the Shapers as the lesser of two evils in that conflict. It is also unfortunate that the original geneforge was so flawed. Not that it matters that much, as I don’t really act any less like myself when I’m under its influence.

[*i]

Early on I would say the Awakened, they appear to be the most reasonable, although Trajkov did make some good points (he was almost un-Taker like to be a full Taker I feel). Later on, I would say the Shapers...the Awakened were too weak as time went on, the Barzites were crazy, and the Takers insane. Once things turned into Rebels versus Shapers, I'd stick with the Shapers. Even if they are cruel, they are not indiscriminately spreading dangerous creatures all over the place.

[Nioca]

In GF1 and 2, I'm Awakening all the way. I prefer their way of attempting to get freedom, by building bonds with the shapers, rather than killing them.

 

In GF3, I'm a reluctant shaper. I don't agree with most of their views, but if no one is in control, chaos and death will regin.

 

Oh, and welcome back, Tullegolar.

[Dikiyoba]

In G1, I prefer the Obeyers. The character I play there has a loyal, practical personality and wouldn't stand for Takers and their war and he wouldn't side with the Awakened because they have so little power to accomplish anything. But the Obeyers are loyal and fairly sensible.

 

In G2, I usually ally with the Awakened. The character I play with there is interested in power, open to new ideas, and still ethical, so the Awakened provide a balance between power, freedom for serviles, and not harming too many innocents.

 

Dikiyoba hasn't played G3 yet, so no opinions there.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I am interested to know why you all think serviles should be treated as equals.

[Dikiyoba]

Because my moral beliefs compel me to treat humans and beings of similar mental and emotional abilities with decency.

 

Unless, of course, they are evil beings intent on harming decent beings and with lots of treasure. Those beings must be ruthlessly slain and looted of all valuables.

 

Dikiyoba.

[*i]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
I am interested to know why you all think serviles should be treated as equals.

Because they are sentient, able to grasp abstract ideals like freedom and liberty, and have feelings/emotions like any other human.

Do you feel the Drakons are justified in treating the Drayks as inferior?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Preposterous! What if there was such a thing as artificial intelligence? Would you give computers rights as well? Serviles may be able to grasp certain ideas, but surely you can recognize the inferiority. They are weak, small brained, greedy, and more often hostile than not. They can’t even learn magic without either help from a superior human, or by going completely crazy. How can these things be treated as equals?

 

As for drakons treating drayks like lesser being. Well, drayks are lesser beings! They are weaker and less intelligent. But it matters not, what do I care what a drakon thinks? Drakons are inferior to shapers.

[Randomizer]

We already had much of this debate here in Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy as little while ago. Most of the members feel that the end result of intelligence is more important than the origin,

 

I didn't like any of the factions. The shaper loyalist seems the best in that it isn't causing chaos and destruction to achieve an end. That the drakons and ur-drakons are behind the rebellion means that they are using the process to eliminate everyone else and that the liberation of serviles is a smokescreen to their real ends.

[*i]

Quote:

What if there was such a thing as artificial intelligence? Would you give computers rights as well?

Yes, if sufficiently sentient and self-aware. In other words, if it can decide on its own it wants these basic human equivalent rights, then it should have them.

Of course, we've debated this before and I don't think we need to go further into it.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Well, then, your lucky I missed out on that debate. I would have kept it going forever. A pity.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Serviles may be able to grasp certain ideas, but surely you can recognize the inferiority. They are weak, small brained, greedy, and more often hostile than not. They can’t even learn magic without either help from a superior human, or by going completely crazy. How can these things be treated as equals?

Quote:

[Negros] may be able to grasp certain ideas, but surely you can recognize the inferiority. They are weak, small brained, greedy, and more often hostile than not. They can’t even learn [math] without either help from a superior human, or by going completely crazy. How can these things be treated as equals?

I see someone has been reading his Gobineau.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I'm glad someone got the joke. I don't know who Gobineau is, I actually had Thomas Jefferson in mind when I wrote that.

 

Seriously though, serviles are not human. All men are all created equal. However, serviles were literally created inferior.

[*i]

Quote:

All men are all created equal. However, serviles were literally created inferior.

There are many who would debate that the concept of equality, superiority, and inferiority applied to humans is artificial and has no objective standpoint.

If all men are equal why is it that some are better musicians than others? I think the point is that not all humans are equal in an absolute sense, but deserve to be treated with fundamentally equal amounts of dignity.

As for serviles, relative to what measure of inferiority? Care to quantify this inequality so we can actually measure it? The problem is this is virtually impossible because there are so many abstract variables that are inherently impossible to quantify.

So we come back to the philosophical question applied to humans. Do all humans deserve to be treated with a basic amount of dignity? Serviles exhibit a lot of human characteristics in their personality. On average some may be "dumber" than the average human. Nonetheless, how can one truly say they are inferior without using a highly restricted definition of personally quality?

[MagmaDragoon]

I think that a creature, human or not, should be treated as equal when he has enough intelligence to ask for it.

 

EDIT: "Ask" do not involve speaking. Or yes?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
As for serviles, relative to what measure of inferiority? Care to quantify this inequality so we can actually measure it?

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
They are weak, small brained, greedy, and more often hostile than not. They can’t even learn magic without either help from a superior human, or by going completely crazy.

I think we can agree that they are weaker, as they are so small and unable to learn magic on their own. Since they are so small, they must have proportional sized brains (they are not to be confused with midgets, who have small bodies but normal sized heads). They are very greedy, having the audacity to charge you for their services. Here you are trying to save the world, and they put their own interests first. After all, all you ever did for them was give them life. They have no common sense, no sense of humanity. The Takers are horribly violent, and the only reason the Awakened don't kill you outright is because they are too weak and cowardly to do so. Serviles were created to serve, they can not be trusted to have equal rights, because they will abuse them.

Dragoon: I don't think asking does involve speaking, which is why we must oppress even their thoughts by shaping fear and the desire to serve deep into them. When all else fails, making them dumber and super-dependant works, as well.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

I think we can agree that they are weaker, as they are so small and unable to learn magic on their own.

They were specifically shaped not to be able to perform magic. (Which makes you happy, I know, since you want to keep them weak so you can continue to abuse them.)

 

Quote:

Since they are so small, they must have proportional sized brains (they are not to be confused with midgets, who have small bodies but normal sized heads).

Brain size has very little to do with intelligence.

 

And midgets are proportionate to regular humans, just smaller.

 

Quote:

They are very greedy, having the audacity to charge you for their services. Here you are trying to save the world, and they put their own interests first.

So do most of the humans. Human merchants still charge you for items. You have to pay humans to get training in skills, spells, and shaping. They make you perform quests before they will help you.

 

Dikiyoba wonders if Emperor Tullegolar rules a country comprised entirely of oppressed midgets. It would explain a lot.

[Nioca]

My opinion is that serviles should be kept in the servant position, but should be given rights and pay. After all, you pay a human servant or laborer for work, so why not a servile?

[*i]

Seems like a pretty restrictive definition of superiority and inferiority. Would an autistic midget be inferior to a regular human and only be fit to serve?

[nikki.]

I think Kel inadvertantly gave away a lot of my beliefs in his post. I sort of see the serviles plight as that of slaves. So I tend to play Awakened. The first play through, it was unintentional, and I played as I would in real life.

 

As for the "inferior" and "small-mindedness" of the serviles... well, I point you to Learned Darian.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Dikiyoba: Midgets are not proportional small humans, just look at one. You are right, however, in saying brain size probably matters little in determining intelligence, whales come to mind. I suppose it depends on how complex the brain is. Though I have no hard evidence to support this, I would say that serviles are made with simpler brains, as that would be a logical thing for shapers to give them.

 

Nioca: The way I see it, slavery is a perfectly reasonable practice. No, it should not be based on race or gender or anything like that. Rather, people who commit crimes or are otherwise useless to society are the ones that should be enslaved.

 

*i: Don't take this the wrong way, but, yes, an autistic midget is simply not as effective as an average human. Are they fit only to serve? I’d say yes, but an autistic midget would probably not even make a decent servant.

 

Oscar Wilde: Learned Darian was not meant to be. It is only because of the stupidity of the Shaper Council that he(she?) and all the Awakened even exist. Darian should die, before more serviles can be contaminated.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

Dikiyoba: Midgets are not proportional small humans, just look at one. You are right, however, in saying brain size probably matters little in determining intelligence, whales come to mind. I suppose it depends on how complex the brain is. Though I have no hard evidence to support this, I would say that serviles are made with simpler brains, as that would be a logical thing for shapers to give them.

Midget: An extremely small person who is otherwise normally proportioned.

 

I agree that serviles were originally shaped with, and for the most part still have, simpler brains than humans. I believe they get compared to children a few times in the series. But the serviles on Sucia Island (and now spreading to other regions) are different. They had two hundred years of isolation to evolve and learn to be able to think at a much higher level.

 

The problem I have with your arguments is that you are arguing for what should be rather than what is. The serviles of Sucia Island are not the dumb, inferior ones you keep alluding to. They are different.

 

Now, you can believe that the intelligent serviles should be wiped out and everything should return to the way it was. But practically no one else shares that belief. Almost everyone believes that the intelligent serviles ought to be treated more like humans, so arguing that they should continue to be treated like mindless slaves is difficult at best and an incredibly annoying waste of time at worst.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Edit: Typo.

[Kelandon]

It is notable that Jeff actually changed the set of alternatives as GF went on. The rebels in GF3 are considerably less palatable (more bloodthirsty) than the Awakened of GF1. I suspect the reason for this change is that Jeff himself found the choice too easy in GF1 and wanted to complicate it.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
The way I see it, slavery is a perfectly reasonable practice. No, it should not be based on race or gender or anything like that. Rather, people who commit crimes or are otherwise useless to society are the ones that should be enslaved

I'll meet you halfway on the criminals. But people that are useless to society? The only way I could condone that was if they were paid.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Oscar Wilde: Learned Darian was not meant to be. It is only because of the stupidity of the Shaper Council that he(she?) and all the Awakened even exist. Darian should die, before more serviles can be contaminated.

Does it bother you at all that your philosophy requires you to destroy all those whose traits you would otherwise find most admirable, just because they happen to be working for the wrong side?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Everyone: Dikiyoba says no one shares my belief that things should be returned to the way they were. However, this thread (edit: the shapers keeping secrets thread, not this one) has shown that most people here seem to believe that the shapers should keep their secrets to themselves rather than allow them to be generally known to the public. The Awakened represent a failure of this ideology. The only way for the shapers to keep their secrets is if they continue their policy of shaper superiority over other humans and over creations. So you must make your choice: are you conservative shapers, or do you truly believe in equality for all? Or are you all hypocrites that think the serviles should be treated as equals as long as they do not seek to know shaper secrets?

[Retlaw May]

First on the original topic:

I'll admit that in G1 I liked helping the Obeyers first and then I used the Genefoge and went rampant on the Taker city. In G2 I like playing as a no canister loyalist, because it is the most orderly way to go. And in G3 I am a Shaper that agrees with most of the Shaper answers except I let those two serviles who have been "tainted" live because they still want to serve the Shapers.

On the current topic:

I guess I'm a moderate here. I would exile all the intelegent serviles to a reasonably remote and decent island, but keep the regular serviles as is. My reasoning is that most serviles (until stired up by the rogues) like what they are doing. I don't like the intelegent serviles' policy of forcing many reluctant serviles to follow them. Oh and ET may be pleased to here that everytime I play a Shaper loyalist in G3, I always kill Learned Darian (why did Darian get a sex change after G1 anyways?)

[nikki.]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
I guess I'm a moderate here. I would exile all the intelegent serviles to a reasonably remote and decent island, but keep the regular serviles as is. My reasoning is that most serviles (until stired up by the rogues) like what they are doing. I don't like the intelegent serviles' policy of forcing many reluctant serviles to follow them. Oh and ET may be pleased to here that everytime I play a Shaper loyalist in G3, I always kill Learned Darian (why did Darian get a sex change after G1 anyways?)

The serviles who aren't put of secret mountain sects may develop these attitudes on their own. In GF3, the Awakened servile in Drypeak only takes away serviles who show the intelligence to actually be independant. And these haven't been stirred up. They realise that they are being exploited.

As for Darian... the thought of killing her makes me...I don't know. upset? Disappointed?

The very fact that she doesn't do anything hostile at all through the series, and works only to try and better the life of serviles makes her a kind of Martin Luther King Jr. figure to me. Probably extreme, but who cares? Even in GF3 when she sides with the rebels (who I always end up following as well), she doens't force you to switch sides if you are loyal. She asks, and pleads to your better nature.

On the subject of serviles driving themselves mad to get magic (yes, it was a while ago), well, this just further proves they are determined to be equals with humans. Don't humans sometimes do the wrong things for the right reasons?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

If serviles are under constant care and protection of shapers, there will be no need for them to develop these thoughts. In fact, it should be prevented, because, as we have seen, such thoughts generally lead to destruction on a massive scale. "Take our free" indeed.

 

Darian may be peaceful on the outside. But look at her actions and intentions. Serviles that could still be perfectly good servants go to her and learn to be independent, the next step being to leave her and join a faction, promoting hostility towards other factions. Darien's compound in Geneforge 2 was a recruiting and training ground for future serviles terrorists. In Geneforge 3, she even tried to make you a rebel. I think most people here would side with the Geneforge 3 shapers rather than the rebels.

 

Servile mages = homicidal maniacs. Their inferior brains can not handle magic. Just because they are determined to have it means nothing. I am determined to be a god, does that make me the equal to a god?

[nikki.]

Serviles under the "care and protection" of shapers still develop these thoughts. If Shapers make serviles that can want to be free, then they should let them be free. If they want something to mow the lown, invent something that can't argue, or feel, or think.

 

I'm going to try this another way... Intellectual evolution. Man once thought serfdom was a good idea. We realised we were wrong. Serviles are learning to be independant, instead of mindless zombies. This can only be a good thing, right?

 

And Darian didn't try to make you a rebel. She asks you to think, and reminds you it's not to late to change your mind... She doesn't point a gun at you and says, "Join the Evil Bad Guys, now!"

 

And people only support the Shapers in GF3 because the rebels are going about things the wrong way. If the Shapers were going about planting spawners everywhere too, and killing innocents, I think a lot more people would side with the Rebels...

 

As for the God thing, no. I didnt mean that aspiring to be a human made serviles more human. I meant aspiring did. Your wish to be a God shows you have a human side to you.

[be_cavalier]

I just wanted to answer a thought that was posed quite a bit ago in the thread, since it's right up my alley of study.

 

The most recent school of thought when it comes to intelligence is the brain to body weight ratio. Humans (expecially babies) have ridiculously large brains for our body sizes. Dolphins are right behind us in this regard. So depending on this ratio, serviles may not be all that dumb.

 

If the world of Geneforge works the same as our world, then any creation that can talk and understand speech would fall under the "intelligent" category. Language is an incredibly complex human behavior. If you think about it, words are really just bits of noise that your brain is able to pick out and attach meaning to. The fact that serviles can communicate and understand language puts them at an intelligence level that is somewhat on par with an average human. Obviously even toddlers are able to form sentences, but they can't form and comprehend complex concepts like the smart serviles can. This is even hinted at by your character when talking to smart serviles for the first time. They'll usually make some remark that your character will point out is "very uncharacteristic of a servile."

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that none of the serviles are technically dumb when compared to every other creature on the planet. When compared to humans, the average servile isn't as intelligent. But, ET, you don't feel that the smart serviles have actually earned a little respect for breaking out of the handicap that Shapers placed on them? By your logic, I would think the Shapers would earn a little less respect since they didn't design the servile model well enough to keep this intelligence from showing up.

 

But that's just my thoughts.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Be-Cavalier: First I must ask about this brain to body weight ratio. How does that make sense scientifically? If someone is born with no arms or legs, will they be smarter than the average person?

 

I do recognize that serviles are superior to other creations. Because of this, I believe they should be given a place to live, food to eat, and I'll even agree not to slaughter them for food or force them onto the battlefield. All I ask is that they put in a days work in the mines or make me a sandwich to repay me for giving them life in the first place. They may be the most clever of all creations, but they are still creations, and shapers are still far superior.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Be-Cavalier: First I must ask about this brain to body weight ratio. How does that make sense scientifically? If someone is born with no arms or legs, will they be smarter than the average person?

That's actually an interesting question, and while I don't have an answer as such, I wouldn't be enormously surprised if the answer was "yes". The brain organises itself dynamically during the first years of life based on the kind of sensory input it receives. It's widely known, for example, that someone born blind will devote a larger brain area to hearing (and generally have better hearing than a sighted person), and someone born deaf will devote a larger brain area to vision.

So it's reasonable to assume that in someone born without limbs, some parts of the brain normally dedicated to moving the limbs would devote themselves to other uses. I suspect the result would more likely be better coordination in what muscles remain than greater overall intelligence, though.

At any rate, the point is that a large proportion of the brain is devoted to processing sensory input and motor output -- and the number of neurons required for both of these things scales up with body size. It's the "extra" brain mass on top of what's needed to keep the body working properly that can be used for higher-order cognitive tasks.

[Student of Trinity]

Though all of this is whistling in the dark, since we understand little about either intelligence, in the abstract, or the brain.

[Crafterlord]

I think all humans are equal in a way. Of course there are differently skilled humans, but they are able to apply for better jobs and they have the chance to become famous, like Einstein. (you know who he is, don't you?)

 

I think serviles should be the same. If there are some who are more intelligent, they should be equal with humans and they should have the right to learn magic.

 

Of course, they could do anything they wanted, as long as they didn't start wars or otherwise didn't make others life harder.

 

EDIT: also, I remember one thing about brains. Humans only use 10% of it, at least according to our current knowledge. Or something such, my memory ain't the best. And humans can, at any point, make more memory if they run out. So we shouldn't worry about that our brains couldn't handle all info we get.

 

EDIT2: and, ET, if you try to be god, go on. If you succeed in getting enough power to be counted god, then you are a god.

 

Do we really need someone to serve us? By all means, I would let serviles live and maybe form a nation. If they couldn't handle magic, I wouldn't give them it.

 

They don't need to be crushed. You can be in peace with them but you still can ask them to mine in a mine for you, for reasonable pay of course.

 

Just look at women. Men cruelly enslaved them, even if they are at least equal or maybe even more worthy than us, and nowadays they are equal. And this actually doesn't have about anything to do with this topic... just felt like writing this.

[be_cavalier]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Be-Cavalier: First I must ask about this brain to body weight ratio. How does that make sense scientifically? If someone is born with no arms or legs, will they be smarter than the average person?

This is actually a more general concept of intelligence, from species to species. Obviously you can have humans that have a huge brain but can be dumb as rocks. Brain size actually doesn't matter all that much when you're comparing it to other members of the same species.

And I'm not sure about a blind person actually being able to hear better than a person who can see normally. Sight is our main mode of gathering information around us, and hearing is probably the second most important. People who are blind have actually just adapted their attention to focus more on what they hear. It's sort of similar to wandering around a dark room. Since sight is useless, you rely on a different sense more than you normally do: touch. It's sort of the same principle, as far as I'm aware.

Also, I think my neuroscience professor actually made the comment that if human hearing were any better, we'd actually be able to hear Brownian motion. Which would get pretty irritating if you ask me

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I have heard of an experiment done where a woman was blindfolded for several months. Brain activity in the eye section of the brain or whatever slowed to a halt, but after a week or so there was activity there again, hinting that that part of the brain was indeed being assigned to other tasks, hearing perhaps.

 

As for servile brains, it really is a matter of how developed they are. First generation serviles seem to be extremely stupid, however, they have great evolutionary potential it seems, almost on par with humans after a mere 200 years on Sucia island. Really, we might be dealing with two separate species here, as the differences are so substantial. I say enslave first generation serviles, and destroy intelligent evolved ones.

 

Intelligent serviles must be destroyed because they are not only a threat to shaper culture, but they are also very physically destructive. I believe this is true for them as a race. Sure, there will be exceptions, but for the most part, intelligent serviles are hostile, and should be dealt with accordingly.

[be_cavalier]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
I have heard of an experiment done where a woman was blindfolded for several months. Brain activity in the eye section of the brain or whatever slowed to a halt, but after a week or so there was activity there again, hinting that that part of the brain was indeed being assigned to other tasks, hearing perhaps.

I haven't heard of this experiment, but it'd be interesting to read up on. The only problem I can see is that some areas of the brain are very specialized and can't really adapt to other functions. The occipital lobe in humans is almost entirely devoted to sorting through visual information and sending it down the proper pathways. It would be hard for it to start decoding audible clues for instance. But if someone provided me a link to this or similar studies, I'd love to read it.

And back to Geneforge, I agree that for the original way of Shaper life to continue, the intelligent serviles would have to be killed, and wiped out of history. But who's to say that the old Shaper philosophy would still work today? Now that the Shaper civilization has been through rebellion and freakish new creations, they're going to have to adapt to a new way of thinking. But I'm not sure if any of the factions in the Geneforge universe have gotten it completely right yet.

[Randomizer]

The information about using only 10% of the brain was a made up statistic.

 

I hadn't heard of that particular study on a blind-folded woman, but I do remember reading a few years ago about other related work. It's been shown that the brain will, even late in life, rewire itself to cope with a loss. Brain area functions will be reassigned, new connections can be formed, and in general the brain will try to use under utilized capacity.

 

Servile brains were much like those of serfs in the middle ages. With most of the day spent in backbreaking toil, there is little leisure time for intellectual thought. Sucia Island gave the serviles time to develop since they weren't overworked or having their thinking done for them by Shapers.

 

Most intellectual revolutions were marked by a surge in leisure time for part of the population. Ancient Greece had a golden age in Athens because the slaves did most of the manual labor. You had similar periods in Europe coming out of the Dark Ages.

[Suspicious Vlish]

The factions which I find most convincing?

 

Geneforge 1 = Takers.

 

Geneforge 2 = Takers.

 

Geneforge 3 = Rebels.

 

The logic behind the Taker philosophy is so mind numbingly simple, that even a child could see its validity.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Where is the logic in trying to spread chaos? The Takers are cold blooded murderers that would genocide humanity if they had the chance. They claim to support freedom and equality, but the serviles are as much servants under the them as they are under shapers. It's more like only a child could see its validity. Which makes sense since serviles have child-brains and drakons are insane.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Where is the logic in trying to spread chaos? The Takers are cold blooded murderers that would genocide humanity if they had the chance. They claim to support freedom and equality, but the serviles are as much servants under the them as they are under shapers. It's more like only a child could see its validity. Which makes sense since serviles have child-brains and drakons are insane.

Seconded, except for the servile bit. No good can come from the wanton violence that the Takers/Rebels support. The paradox is, the serviles can only get freedom by resorting to full-out war. But in order to start a war, they have to become enslaved to another race.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emperor:

Quote:

Where is the logic in trying to spread chaos?

The Takers aren't trying to 'spread chaos'. They are struggling to overthrow a corrupt and repressive regime. In the process, chaos occurs.

 

Chaos is a natural product of any revolution or struggle against a tyranically regime. Generally, the overthrow of a repressive government is preceded and followed by chaos, which is then followed by anarchy, and then (most often) the establishment of a new government.

 

Would you have argued that the Jews in the Nazi concentration camps should not have shown any resistance to their Nazi oppressors, as they would be causing 'chaos'?

 

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The Takers are cold blooded murderers

It is not cold blooded murder to kill an enemy who allows the functioning of a tyrannical regime.

 

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that would genocide humanity if they had the chance

Nonsense. The vast majority of the Takers feel sympathetic to humans, as humans are also under the thumb of the Shapers. While the serviles are the slaves, the humans are the peasants.

 

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They claim to support freedom and equality, but the serviles are as much servants under the them as they are under shapers.

The Serviles made a voluntary choice to join the Takers, as have humans and even the odd rogue Shaper.

 

In fact, it seems that serviles have a natural compulsion to want to be free. Otherwise the Shapers wouldn't need to be so strict in monitoring and controlling the thoughts of their creations!

 

Either way, Serviles who join the Takers are willing participants. No one holds a gun to their heads. Unlike the serviles who serve under the Shapers...

 

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It's more like only a child could see its validity.

No, both children and adults who lived under oppression can see the validity of the Taker cause.

 

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Which makes sense since serviles have child-brains

The evidence contradicts you.

 

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and drakons are insane.

I disagree.

The drakons tend to be selfish and coldly rational. But not insane.

 

Nioca:

Quote:

No good can come from the wanton violence that the Takers/Rebels support.

What better alternative do you suggest? I seem to distinctly remember the Awakened of GF2 taking the diplomatic path with the Shapers, only to get destroyed for their efforts.

 

The Taker logic is simple for this very reason: The mindset of the Shaper regime refuses to accept the idea of granting humans or creations equality.

HENCE, it logically follows that the only way for Serviles and humans to gain equality is to overthrow the Shaper regime.

 

And judging from what I have seen, the creation and human alliance would have a reasonable chance of destroying the Shaper regime.

 

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The paradox is, the serviles can only get freedom by resorting to full-out war.

Well, you've just agreed with me...

 

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But in order to start a war, they have to become enslaved to another race.

Not necessarily. I think you underestimate the tenacity of the serviles.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

The Takers are spreading unnecessary chaos. If the shaper regime were truly as repressive as you say it is, why do the Takers not have overwhelming support of the population? It’s because they attack innocent towns, they release rogues upon commoners with little to no affiliation with the shapers whatsoever. They leave only destruction in their wake. Yeah, real "sympathetic." The fact that people go to the shapers for protection rather than helping to overthrow their oppressive regime is all the evidence I need to show me who is in the right here.

 

Serviles join the Takers willingly because they are foolish children. You can't let them make this decision on their own. It's like wanting to run away and join the circus, only this circus has deadly results. Are the serviles not in better hands under the care of shapers than they are being thrown into battle by drakon overlords?

 

Drakons seem rational? What's rational about destroying the world they are trying to free?

 

But what is the alternative? The Tullegolites. We will bring about a new age of peace and order. Join me, and together we can rule the world!

[Retlaw May]

The Taker "simpithy" that Waylander is refering to, is probably that of that town on Gull Island. He makes the generalization that all towns are treated like this, but that is a bad generalization. The only reason that they treated humans like this there was because it was so remote and small (also the dirrect will of drakons was missing there). If you look at the ending of G3 you will see that drakons are ruthless to their targets (not to mention the diseases they manufactured) and set everything "aflame". Also, I found that the Taker leader, Ghaldring, lacked empathy to all (including the Shapers, regular humans, serviles, drayks, and even his own drakons) when he looks on deaths and losses, which even the Shapers hold some remorse for their own regular troops.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Waylander:

 

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What better alternative do you suggest? I seem to distinctly remember the Awakened of GF2 taking the diplomatic path with the Shapers, only to get destroyed for their efforts.

Not if you join them. If you join them, you provide just enough help and power for them to claim the mountains as their own and defend it against the Shapers.

 

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Either way, Serviles who join the Takers are willing participants. No one holds a gun to their heads. Unlike the serviles who serve under the Shapers...

Dikiyoba doesn't believe for one moment that a servile or drayk who joins the Takers and then decides they don't like it has the option to quit. The other Takers would view it as betrayal and kill them instead.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emperor:

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The Takers are spreading unnecessary chaos

That is opinion, not fact. What qualifies as 'unnecessary chaos' is open to interpretation.

 

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If the shaper regime were truly as repressive as you say it is, why do the Takers not have overwhelming support of the population?

You've just answered your own question. Think about it...

 

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It’s because they attack innocent towns,

Perhaps you should tell me exactly what 'innocent' towns the rogues attacked? EVERY target attacked by the rebels could be considered a military target, or at least an outpost for Shaper rule.

 

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they release rogues upon commoners with little to no affiliation with the shapers whatsoever.

No. They don't release rogues on commoners. They release them near Shaper outposts, which will (hopefully) result in destabilization. Any civilian deaths are merely collateral damage.

 

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They leave only destruction in their wake.

Sort of like the Allies in WWII? I seem to distinctly remember Japan and German occupied areas being reduced to rubble by Allied carpet bombing campaigns.

 

Ahh, now I see. The Allies should have just laid down their arms and allowed themselves to be conquered by Nazi and Japanese imperialists. That would have been so much better than causing 'destruction'.

 

Perhaps you want the Rebels to fight the Shaper regime with cotton balls and feather dusters?

 

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Yeah, real "sympathetic."

Apparently there IS widespread sympathy for the Rebels, otherwise the rebellion wouldn't be a problem in the first place. In fact, a number of individuals with high positions have defected to the rebels.

 

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The fact that people go to the shapers for protection

Like the rebels on the second island?

 

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rather than helping to overthrow their oppressive regime is all the evidence I need to show me who is in the right here.

You have no evidence, merely selective observational skills.

 

The vast majority of individuals serve the Shaper regime out of fear, due to coercion.

This is evidenced in each of the 'rebel' ending in the Geneforge series, where many Shapers are murdered by their own creations while they sleep.

Added to which, there is intensive brainwashing by the Shaper regime to force the humans and serviles into slavish obedience, similiar to the propaganda employed by the North Koreans.

 

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It's like wanting to run away and join the circus, only this circus has deadly results.

Partially correct. It's like wanting to flee Iran to move to a secular state. Only attempting to leave Iran and join the 'infidels' will result in you getting shot by the government that claims to 'protect' you.

 

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Are the serviles not in better hands under the care of shapers than they are being thrown into battle by drakon overlords?

'Thrown into battle'? We must have been playing different games, because the last time I checked, the serviles are willing participants in the war against the Shapers. No Drakons are holding a thorn baton to their head.

 

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Drakons seem rational? What's rational about destroying the world they are trying to free?

Why not ask the Allies that? Or any revolutionaries or resistors to an invader?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Waylander:

 

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Sort of like the Allies in WWII? I seem to distinctly remember Japan and German occupied areas being reduced to rubble by Allied carpet bombing campaigns.

 

Ahh, now I see. The Allies should have just laid down their arms and allowed themselves to be conquered by Nazi and Japanese imperialists. That would have been so much better than causing 'destruction'.

The analogy doesn't work, because the Takers started the war. They're on the offensive, not the defensive. All I get out of that statement is a very good reason why the Shapers should keep fighting to uphold their empire.

 

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Like the rebels on the second island?

Didn't Lankan go to Diwaniya to ask for help in dealing with the rogues first, and only became a rebel after losing his temper because Diwaniya didn't do anything, though?

 

Edit: Dikiyoba looked up correct spelling of names.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Dikiyoba:

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The analogy doesn't work, because the Takers started the war.

1. False. The Takers did not 'start' this war. The Shapers did. It is an act of war to force a particular race into subservience via the use of force and coercion. The Takers are on the defensive, as they are fighting against Shaper oppression, for the right to be treated as equal, autonomous beings.

 

2. Even you were to argue (on technicalities) that the Takers did start the war (because they struck the first blow against a regime who would genocide them if it was aware of their existence), I fail to see why my analogy doesn't work. Merely because it isn't a mirror image of the situation in question doesn't invalidate the analogy. That's the reason why its an analogy.

 

The principle I am attempting to put forward remains the same in both cases. Sometimes destruction is necessary to preserve freedom, equality and dignity.

Merely because they use destructive means to achieve their goals does not nullify the legitimacy of their cause. Many resistance groups have struck the first blow against their oppressors, such as the Greeks against the Ottomans in a struggle for an independent Greece, or the Polish against the Russians after the partitions.

 

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Didn't Lankan go to Diwaniya to ask for help in dealing with the rogues first, and only became a rebel after losing his temper because Diwaniya didn't do anything, though?

Again, I fail to see the point. Lankan is rather hostile towards the Shapers, and clearly sympathizes with the Rebels.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
It's like wanting to flee Iran to move to a secular state.

I ran, you ran, we all ran from Iran!

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all night.