Battle Magic: The strongest skill in the game?

[Genernumlover]

I was playing as an endgame Shaper attacking the Takers, with three levels of Battle Magic and three levels of Firebolt, and my character was able to take out Drayks and Battle Alphas, or Battle Betas, in two hits. With the Gloves of Spell Mastery, Haste, and Searer or Essence Lances, he was able to annihilate mobs of enemies and inflict a lot of damage on enemy bosses.

 

Basically he was an artillery piece with only a few levels of Battle Magic, one of which was provided by a trinket. Imagine how strong would a character with eight levels would be. I'm thinking that Battle Magic could use some tweaking, as it seems to have quite a power jump around the middle of the game and it stays very powerful in the endgame. Again, this was powerful against mobs and against bosses with high resistances. A bit back there was a discussion as to if Agents are overpowered. I don't think so anymore. I'm wondering if this is what players were hitting on with that idea.

 

 

[Archaeolagent]

What difficulty is this on?

 

(Before somebody sends an angry reply, every difficulty is a valid and good way to play.  I'm asking because some tactics work better on easier or harder difficulties, so it's good context to have when hearing that something feels overpowered.)

[Genernumlover]

47 minutes ago, Slariton said:

What difficulty is this on?

 

(Before somebody sends an angry reply, every difficulty is a valid and good way to play.  I'm asking because some tactics work better on easier or harder difficulties, so it's good context to have when hearing that something feels overpowered.)

 

This is normal difficulty. I usually play at that difficulty, and I figure that most players will play it at least once. Particularly when they are trying a new build.

[Archaeolagent]

Since enemies take more effort to kill on higher difficulty, and take less on lower difficulty, pure DPS (while never bad) is most effective on lower difficulty, whereas disabling statuses (while never bad) are extra useful on higher difficulty.

[alhoon]

Honestly, Fire Shaping is the strongest skill in the game in my opinion, followed by Magic Shaping and then Battle Shaping. An endgame Agent with 20 battle magic is not, in my opinion, even close to an endgame Shaper with 20 Fire Shaping. Or 15 Fire Shaping. Essence Purge? Your 3 Ur-Drakons can do that three times; 4 if hasted. An agent could do it twice with hastes and all the bells and whistles and her purge would be stronger but not twice as strong as the Ur-Drakons. 
And then, there are the other 3-4 Creations that the Fire Shaping 15 Shaper has...  

[Genernumlover]

True, but Battle Magic can inflict DoT status effects too. Those and stuns are what I usually go for. If you can essentially blast entire groups of endgame enemies to smithereens with one character, with little effort, I'd argue that that means the abilities are overpowered on Normal difficulty. My glass Shaper was able to solo most enemies while his creations were busy, and that was with little Battle Magic skill.

 

That is probably why people on Normal were getting the impression that Agents were too powerful even though she gets the same number of skill points as Shapers and Guardians. If she only needs five levels in Battle Magic and enough Blessing Magic to get Essence Shield, she has a lot of points to play with in other skills. Compare that to the Shaper who needs around nine levels in his Shaping field to fight well in the endgame, and then some levels of Blessing Magic. Or compare it to a Guardian who needs eight or nine levels in melee weapons and some Blessing Magic. Nine levels in key skills versus thirteen or fourteen. That's a big difference in investment versus payoff.

 

Three Ur-Drakons would be very expensive, and you'd have to wait until the nearly the endgame to have enough Shaping skill and essence to field them. A character with Battle Magic, Shaper or Agent, can start getting this kind of power a lot faster and maintain that level of power through the game. It seems to be a simpler and easier route to a lot of power for less investment of effort and skill points.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alhoon]

I respectfully disagree. 

Fyoras are awesome and very cheap for early game. Drayks show up in mid-game and they are good even in end game. Extremely good. 3 drayks are as good as 2 drakons. 

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

A character with Battle Magic, Shaper or Agent, can start getting this kind of power a lot faster and maintain that level of power through the game. It seems to be a simpler and easier route to a lot of power for less investment of effort and skill points.

 

 

In fact, I am stunned that the game allows you so powerful creations so early in the game. If you join Lying Zackary the Deceiver, which you could do right out of the demo, a complete noob, you can get drayks. And you could use those drayks aaaaaaaall the way to the endgame without being too handicapped. Perhaps it is that I have got a bunch of robes and +magic damage equipment early-ish, but I don't think I would have any trouble at all steamrolling everything with just drayks, without drakons. My Drakons are 1-2 level higher than the Drayks and do significantly more damage but they have "cost" me 2-3 points of essence mastery. 

Edited May 17 by alhoon

[Hyperion703]

4 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

That is probably why people on Normal were getting the impression that Agents were too powerful...

Who thinks this? As someone who has recently completed a solo agent run followed by a partying shaper run (both on Normal), I had a very different experience. This was mostly for the reason I  identified here. A single spellcasting source will never be as strong as multiple spellcasting sources of comparable strength. In fact, the consensus around here seems to be, barring a few rare exceptions (Drypeaks-Awakened energy-charged mine, Barzite pylon maze, etc.), shapers ultimately have an easier time completing the game than their two counterparts. 

[alhoon]

Drypeaks? What is the issue with Shapers in Drypeaks? 

[Hyperion703]

@alhoon I can't speak for others, but my shaper build is ultimately the squishiest of the three classes. My agent's Essence Shield and current guardian's heavy armor, considerable resistances, and Lifedrain/Regen combo reliably soak up and negate damage from enemy and environmental damage alike. 

 

Comparatively, my shaper build didn't get an Essence Shield until late game and only because I had a surplus of skill points to burn for Blessing Magic. So, for the majority of the run, he was a vulnerable target, acting primarily as support/utility for his creations. In combat, I could use positioning to mitigate taking damage. Easy enough. However, zones like Crystal Mine (to which I was referring in my comment) presented a unique challenge in part because there were few ways for a lower level shaper to minimize or negate the damage outside of repeated applications of healing or regen. Add that to a character who doesn't have high health anyway, and you can see my dilemma. I had to wait a few levels until I was well beyond Awakened lands to come back to the mine to take out Trine and get the important goodies in the center of the mine. 

[alhoon]

9 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

zones like Crystal Mine

Oh, I did that at low level. I run through it in fight mode, got a few crystals back to town to heal. Then back again. 

[Hyperion703]

Fight mode. Brilliant.

[alhoon]

40 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

Fight mode. Brilliant.

I did that in the original too. 

[Archaeolagent]

6 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

That is probably why people on Normal were getting the impression that Agents were too powerful

I have to echo the "who thinks this?" question, because this isn't the first time you've made a leap from 1 or 2 people saying "X seems really strong" to making superlative statements about game balance.

 

The fact is that these games are balanced primarily for Normal... but they are also not intended to be particularly challenging on Normal.  Every class is designed to be capable of becoming incredibly powerful with good investments, and every class certainly can be played in a way where you slice through enemy encounters like butter.  So having that experience doesn't really speak to one class or skill or whatever being too powerful.

 

[Magenta]

11 minutes ago, Slariton said:

Every class is designed to be capable of becoming incredibly powerful with good investments, and every class certainly can be played in a way where you slice through enemy encounters like butter.

OK, I accept your challenge. I learned how to do it with Awesome Agent Alyssa. I'll see if I can figure out the other two. I'm starting a guardian run today... 

[Lorn]

6 hours ago, alhoon said:

Extremely good. 3 drayks are as good as 2 drakons. 

Wouldn't the drayks be better? that's what I would use :P 

My issue is that I find it pretty badly to play with subpar creations. I would love so much to use them, only to regret it right after If I do

[Hyperion703]

1 hour ago, Lorn said:

My issue is that I find it pretty badly to play with subpar creations. I would love so much to use them, only to regret it right after If I do

Do you mean subpar for the cost? Or outright subpar? Because if we take essence cost out of the equation, there is no way a drayk would be able to go toe-to-toe with a Drakon. 

 

Why would you regret it? Because you'd have less Drakons than you would have had Drayks? The outcome would likely be the same.

[Archaeolagent]

On the other hand, a team of drakons would easily lose to a team of drayks.

 

ST attacks are not the same thing as MT attacks.  And repeatable MT attacks are not the same thing as MT attacks you get 1 out of every 4 to 6 attacks.

[Hyperion703]

Look, if both will get the job done, then I'm taking the option I can reasonably brag about every time. Nobody will be impressed by a group of Drayks. Drakons, on the other hand, will get you chicks.

 

Chicks, man.

Edited May 17 by Hyperion703

[Lorn]

The cool thing would be buffing them. Everyone talks about them being the next gen of drayks, the beasts that can rule over all the other creations, the salvation against shapers. Then they lose to drayks. I would like to alert that drayk that launches himself into the geneforge. Poor thing.

Edited May 17 by Lorn

[alhoon]

37 minutes ago, Slariton said:

On the other hand, a team of drakons would easily lose to a team of drayks.

 

ST attacks are not the same thing as MT attacks.  And repeatable MT attacks are not the same thing as MT attacks you get 1 out of every 4 to 6 attacks.

 

But Drakons have chain lighting. This is MT attack. It doesn't do as much as Drayk's breath, but on the other hand, the Drakons have more hp and +2 levels compared to Drayks. 

 

  

25 minutes ago, Lorn said:

The cool thing would be buffing them. Everyone talks about them being the next gen of drayks, the beasts that can rule over all the other creations, the salvation against shapers. Then they lose to drayks. I would like to alert that drayks that launches himself into the geneforge. Poor thing.

They don't lose to Drayks. They have more hp, are higher level and their DoT damage is a lot and they do have chain lighting. Do not underestimate their DoT, BTW. If a Drayk survives an attack by a Drakon, it will probably go down in the DoT before the drayk can act.  

Edited May 17 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

alhoon, you completely ignored the second half of the quote.  You're comparing an attack you get to use once every 4 to 6 attacks with an attack you get to use every single attack.

 

EDIT: Also, I forgot how meh the Drakon's AoE attack was.  With Overload active, one shot of the Drayk's AoE does nearly double what the Drakon's does.  (Even the Ur-Drakon's does less than the Drayk's with Overload active.)

[alhoon]

7 hours ago, Slariton said:

alhoon, you completely ignored the second half of the quote.  You're comparing an attack you get to use once every 4 to 6 attacks with an attack you get to use every single attack.

 

EDIT: Also, I forgot how meh the Drakon's AoE attack was.  With Overload active, one shot of the Drayk's AoE does nearly double what the Drakon's does.  (Even the Ur-Drakon's does less than the Drayk's with Overload active.)

 

I don't understand the 2nd part to be honest. What do you mean once ever 4-6 attacks? I spam the chain lighting if the enemy is still alive. And yes chain lighting is unimpressive but ... it is AoE with range. If there are 3+ enemies it does more damage than a drakon's normal attack. 

Overload: I strongly dislike it. The damage it does is insane. Play-wise I remember the "use regenerate!" etc but if I have to use regen to save my 4 drayks from collapsing on themselves over doubling the damage I am using a lot of preparation over something that I may want to avoid as my half-health drayks in a serious fight may be killed. 

 

Furthermore in a "Drakon vs Drayk" fight, Drayks using overload don't have regenerate. They may won the battle, but they would die afterwards as overload does like 90-110% of their health in total. 

 

NOTE: we're talking normal, right? Because on Veteran that I play as now, with the "Returning attack" half the times I have to load because I loved to open with chain lighting from my drakons and now ... I often get 2 enemies and 5-7 people from my own party. 

Edited May 18 by alhoon

[l33tmaan]

Man, I love friendly fire. A shame that it makes battle shaping even worse!

[alhoon]

I admit it is funnier than I expected. By the time the Lighting comes back to me, after 3 or so jumps, it is already pretty weak and through Items I have like 40% energy resistance. And even in veteran, in the areas I am now, with enemies at 11-15 level, getting hit by my chain lighting is not that bad. I group heal. 

[Genernumlover]

14 hours ago, ex post slarto said:

I have to echo the "who thinks this?" question, because this isn't the first time you've made a leap from 1 or 2 people saying "X seems really strong" to making superlative statements about game balance.

 

The fact is that these games are balanced primarily for Normal... but they are also not intended to be particularly challenging on Normal.  Every class is designed to be capable of becoming incredibly powerful with good investments, and every class certainly can be played in a way where you slice through enemy encounters like butter.  So having that experience doesn't really speak to one class or skill or whatever being too powerful.

 

 

The player who pointed out Agent problems and me. One to two people pointing out balance issues is how a lot of balance issues come to light in games. Somebody has to find an issue and draw attention to it. For example, you pointed out that Rotghroths were altered, to likely be weaker, in the latest balance patch and let us find out for ourselves by testing if what you said was correct. Applying your logic, shall I say that Rotghroths cannot truly be verified to be weaker and that your statement was an overgeneralization and not a potential issue? Or should I do what you did in your Shaping Analysis post and what I am doing here with this discussion on Battle Magic: open the subject up for debate and testing by the community.

 

For me, this isn't about a class per se, this is about a skill line. I keep using Agents as an example because magic is their trademark skill and investing in it is a natural course of action in their gameplay. What I'm thinking is that the issue raised by the other user, about Agents, is potentially a problem with Battle Magic. Basically, if the return on investment for that skill stays very high at a low level of skill, that's an issue. After the early game, Battle Magic spells may gain power too readily for what is put into the Battle Magic skill. Hence my example about my Shaper character and his small amount of skill in Battle Magic being powerful in the endgame. If the skill line needs little investment compared to the alternatives, like melee, missile, or Shaping skills, that means that the skill and its spells are likely in need of tweaking.

 

I'm essentially pointing out there may be a balance issue with a skill and that there are remarks by another user that could indicate that as well. Therefore, I'm bringing the issue up to the community for their examination. By switching the focus from a discussion about a class to a discussion about a skill, I'm hoping that I'm narrowing the issue down to a quantifiable and testable issue that can be resolved should it be examined and be found to be problematic.

 

Spiderweb Software is an excellent gaming company with a comparatively small but loyal fanbase. Vogel relies on us to spot issues in his games.

 

I don't mean any of this to be combative, by the way. I welcome your making me defend my assertions.

 

20 hours ago, alhoon said:

I respectfully disagree. 

Fyoras are awesome and very cheap for early game. Drayks show up in mid-game and they are good even in end game. Extremely good. 3 drayks are as good as 2 drakons. 

 

 

In fact, I am stunned that the game allows you so powerful creations so early in the game. If you join Lying Zackary the Deceiver, which you could do right out of the demo, a complete noob, you can get drayks. And you could use those drayks aaaaaaaall the way to the endgame without being too handicapped. Perhaps it is that I have got a bunch of robes and +magic damage equipment early-ish, but I don't think I would have any trouble at all steamrolling everything with just drayks, without drakons. My Drakons are 1-2 level higher than the Drayks and do significantly more damage but they have "cost" me 2-3 points of essence mastery. 

 

True, Fyoras are good for a Shaper. Guardians have decent Fyoras but they can be somewhat tough to keep alive against groups of enemies with AoE. I have never joined Zakary in the early game to rush Drayks, so I can't speak to that.

 

My issue is the return on investment for skills. You were talking about rushing skills. These Battle Magic skills you don't need to rush and seemingly don't need to invest very much in compared to the other combat styles. You have to invest a lot in Shaping and weapon skills to be good in the endgame. It seems like very little Battle Magic is needed to be quite powerful.

[alhoon]

You also don't have to rush fire Shaping... 

[Genernumlover]

30 minutes ago, alhoon said:

You also don't have to rush fire Shaping... 

 

I meant joining the Shapers and rushing to buy Drayks right after you complete the demo areas. Joining the Shapers, at least temporarily, in order to get a high level creation at that stage is a rush for that particular creation type.

Edited May 18 by Genernumlover

[Hyperion703]

27 minutes ago, Genernumlover said:

 

The player who pointed out Agent problems and me.

You might be referring to me. Was the post "Agent Woes"? If so, did you go on to read the entire thread? I did a lot of personal growth in that thread. Today, I'm a reformed man. No longer do I believe in the woes of (higher level) agents. 

 

It's true: solo agents relatively struggle early on, until Essence Shield is available. Once an agent gets ES, the game becomes many degrees easier and there is little that will really threaten. I wouldn't say the easiness is comparable to a shaper, however. At least, not yet. IMO, agents don't get comparable to shapers in terms of raw power until levels 17-19. By then, you will only need three spells: Essence Shield Mass Energize, and either Airshock or Essence Purge. You won't need anything else. 

 

And you will wreck face. From a considerable distance, too. No, agents need neither boost nor buff to thrive.

[alhoon]

15 minutes ago, Genernumlover said:

 

I meant joining the Shapers and rushing to buy Drayks right after you complete the demo areas. Joining the Shapers, at least temporarily, in order to get a high level creation at that stage is a rush for that particular creation type.

But it is not like you can get Airshock easier, is it? But I think I understand what you mean now. I still disagree, but I see where you come from.

[Hyperion703]

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

But it is not like you can get Airshock easier, is it?

You get Airshock for free during the demo. 

[alhoon]

16 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

You get Airshock for free during the demo. 

The Agent? Or a canister somewhere? 

Edited May 18 by alhoon

[Randomizer]

Cloak of the Winds, an item, is found in the demo and lets someone with enough battle magic use that spell.

[Archaeolagent]

13 hours ago, alhoon said:

I don't understand the 2nd part to be honest. What do you mean once ever 4-6 attacks? I spam the chain lighting if the enemy is still alive.

Chain Lightning has a cooldown.  Drayks have the augment that cancels cooldowns, Drakons don't.  That means they can use it once every 3 turns, which is once every 4 to 6 attacks.  Drayks can breathe every single attack, which is now (with the innate haste upgrade) about 1.67 attacks per turn on average.

 

Yes, if you can kill everything with 1 cast per creation the cooldown isn't relevant, but the point is that Drayks reach that point much, much sooner than Drakons do.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, ex post slarto said:

Chain Lightning has a cooldown.  Drayks have the augment that cancels cooldowns, Drakons don't. 

 

Yes, they do have that augment. So do Ur-Drakons. 

Edited May 18 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

Whoops.  You are totally correct!  Hah, no wonder what I said didn't make sense.

 

The lack of Innate Haste still holds them back, and picking that augment makes the essence cost comparison worse for them.  At that point it's 38 essence for a Drakon that can spam Chain Lightning, versus 26 essence for a Drayk that can spam fire breath (and also has Innate Haste).  Even without Overload, the Drakon doesn't actually do more damage per turn (on average).  So you're paying close to 50% more essence entirely for the drakon being a bit sturdier.

 

Ur-Drakons will do more damage than a non-Overload Drayk (though less than an Overload Drayk).  An Ur-Drakons who can spam AoE costs 56 essence, more than twice as much as the Drayk!  That is admittedly a great option if you're up to 400 essence, but getting that high means sacrificing creation levels.  I don't think the Ur-Drakon is worth it.  Still, this is an interesting point.

[alhoon]

Just now, ex post slarto said:

Whoops.  You are totally correct!  Hah, no wonder what I said didn't make sense.

 

The lack of Innate Haste still holds them back, and picking that augment makes the essence cost comparison worse for them.  At that point it's 38 essence for a Drakon that can spam Chain Lightning, versus 26 essence for a Drayk that can spam fire breath (and also has Innate Haste).  Even without Overload, the Drakon doesn't actually do more damage per turn (on average).  So you're paying close to 50% more essence entirely for the drakon being a bit sturdier.

 

Ur-Drakons will do more damage than a non-Overload Drayk (though less than an Overload Drayk).  An Ur-Drakons who can spam AoE costs 56 essence, more than twice as much as the Drayk!  That is admittedly a great option if you're up to 400 essence, but getting that high means sacrificing creation levels.  I don't think the Ur-Drakon is worth it.  Still, this is an interesting point.

 

A Drayk with innate haste (a must), overload and Fast recovery wouldn't cost 26 essence though. It would cost 30 essence. So, a Drakon is not that much more expensive.

You are paying 20% more essence for a much more hardy creation (a lot more hp) and to save yourself from the essence you would waste on group-heals / regen. 

 

"getting that high means sacrificing creation levels.  I don't think the Ur-Drakon is worth it.  Still, this is an interesting point." 

To be clear: You are right, No it is not worth it. What on earth would one need 7 Ur-drakons for?! 
I tell you that as someone with a lot of essence. Going full Ur- is insane. Only a Barzhite or a powermad Taker would find it worth it for RP reasons. 

 

What is IMO worth it is (I assume): 4 drayks, 2 Ur, 1 drakon. When I have the essence. Because 32 extra essence for the essence purge and the higher levels and hp is something I will eventually have. <== I have not have so much essence yet, I am 16 level with 11 essence mastery. I need 3 more levels to be able to afford that much.  

 

What is IMO worth it is (My current line-up): 3 Drayks, 3 Drakons (or 5 Drayks /2 Drakons)

You are talking single creation, while I am talking mixed.   
 

[Archaeolagent]

You are incorrect, Drayk augments are 4 essence each.  26 essence with three.

[alhoon]

3 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

You are incorrect, Drayk augments are 4 essence each.  26 essence with three.

And the cone attack? The Area attack we are talking about?

[Archaeolagent]

I'm not sure what you're asking.  All augments cost the same thing for a given creation.

[alhoon]

2 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

I'm not sure what you're asking.  All augments cost the same thing for a given creation.

I mean: a Drayk with the augments we're talking about (the ones I mentioned + AoE) costs 30 essence. Sure a drayk without the AoE is 26 essence, but then it wouldn't do as much as a Drakon with lighting (assuming 2-3+ enemies on the lighting). It would do more on the single attack than the drakon, sure, but then, the Drayk would need to be healed and by a LOT because Overload. 

[Archaeolagent]

Alhoon, you are incorrect.  A Drayk with 3 augments costs 26 essence.  Open the game and try it yourself.  14 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 26.

 

Also, a Drayk will do more damage than a Drakon with lightning.  You're arguing against math here.  (EDIT: Or maybe you're just ignoring the impact of Innate Haste?)

[alhoon]

25 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

Alhoon, you are incorrect.  A Drayk with 3 augments costs 26 essence.  Open the game and try it yourself.  14 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 26.

 

Also, a Drayk will do more damage than a Drakon with lightning.  You're arguing against math here.  (EDIT: Or maybe you're just ignoring the impact of Innate Haste?)

 

I am probably incorrectly saying what I mean. As you say "a Drayk with 3 augments" when there are four augments: 

AoE + Fast recovery + Haste + Overload. <=== 4 augments. 

 

I am arguing that a Drayk with single + Overload attack, not AoE attack, not Haste attack would not do more damage that a Drakon with lighting that hits 3 targets. 

I am also saying that a Drayk with overload (not haste, not AoE) will do more damage than a drakon's single attack BUT at the cost of regenerate on the Drayk or heal on the Drayk as it will soon decay. 

 

The points I try (and fail) to make is that a Drakon costs more but if you have the essence to spare, it is a better creation

+ 

Overload is IMO not worth it; your drayks do a lot of damage, sure, but then you need to spam group heal or you need to cast regen on them. I am against overload. 
I am 100% sure it has its uses but on normal... I don't see it as a positive. 

Edited May 18 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

43 minutes ago, alhoon said:

The points I try (and fail) to make is that a Drakon costs more but if you have the essence to spare, it is a better creation

For an Ur-Drakon, I agree, albeit that if you have the essence to spare for that big guy, you're losing out on enough creation levels that it's probably an issue.

 

For a Drakon, again, the non-Overload comparison (since you don't like Overload) is that you pay almost 50% more essence (38 vs 26) to do slightly less damage, but have more HP.

 

There might be a good argument for the very very endgame when you naturally have extra essence (from those very endgame points of EM) to run , as you suggest, maybe a pair of Ur-Drakons (or Drakons, bleah) to have a sturdier front line and then fill the party out with Drayks.  I think you have a good point there.  But this is truly a very late game option, if you don't want to sacrifice creation levels for it.

 

Regarding your qualifiers of "on normal"... normal is a great way to play.  The reason most strategy analysis does not focus on normal is because almost any strategy will work on normal.  It's that simple.  So here we have you saying Overload isn't worth bothering with, someone else was saying status effects aren't worth bothering with.  And that's fair enough, but it doesn't make those things bad or weak, even on Normal.  However, I do appreciate you actually stating that you're just talking about Normal, that is very helpful context to give.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, ex post slarto said:

For a Drakon, again, the non-Overload comparison (since you don't like Overload) is that you pay almost 50% more essence (38 vs 26) to do slightly less damage, but have more HP.

 

With my gear (that boosts creation stats):  Level 16, BTW. 

My 38 essence Drakons do 43-239 + DoT ~> average 141 + DoT // 413 hp // 70% mental resistance. Lvl 24

My 26 essence Drayks do 35-127 (x1.5 for haste) ~> 52 - 190, average 121.25 // 273 hp // 57% mental resistance (??? Why less than the drakon!?). LvL 23 

 

My Drakons have +50% hp, do slightly more damage (like +20% more damage) and cost about 50% essence. And for some reason, slightly higher mental resistance.

 

I think I have pumped 2-3 points more than suggested to Essence Mastery. That would cost me probably 1-2 levels to the fire Creations by the endgame but... by end game my creations' chance to hit will already be 95% against everyone, I think.   

 

Questions: 

1. Why do you say the non-overload Drayk does more damage than a Drakon? 
2. Overload: A lot of people love it. Obviously, there must be a reason for it. What is that reason, if I may ask? I have said the reasons I am puzzled why it is considered not just viable but a good investment (in short: your creation takes a ton of damage that costs a lot of essence to prevent / heal). How do you guys work around this? 

 

Edited May 18 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

Alhoon, those numbers are wrong because you're not comparing the AoE's.  You're comparing the ST attacks, which is not what we're talking about (and Fast Recovery isn't even required for those).

[alhoon]

8 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

Alhoon, those numbers are wrong because you're not comparing the AoE's.  You're comparing the ST attacks, which is not what we're talking about (and Fast Recovery isn't even required for those).

ohhhhh...  well, the Drayks are better on AoE. I don't disagree on that. I don't even think haste is needed for them to be better AoE than Drakons (my gut feeling, not analysis). 

What I mean is that Chain Lighting does less damage than cone and is harder to use. It may situationally get several more targets. But it may get less. 

EDIT: For some reason, my Drayks have less magic skill than my Drakons, so Chain Lighting has +59% while Drayk Cone has +53%. Do Drakons get better stats or something is wrong with my game? 

 

Also: Ur-Drakons, which I don't have: I am still not sure their AoE would be much better to hasted-Drayk AoE. If the purge area is about as much as my airshock crystals, it seems smaller than what I get for Drayks. And no haste. So unless Purge does like x2 damage of the cone (to account for haste and more targets on the cone) I think AoE Drayks would come close. 

 

Any answer for my question of "Why is Overload a good ability?" (Not just from you, from anyone that likes Overload and found it useful despite the heals/regen required). 

Edited May 18 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

Okay, well I'm glad we finally agree, lol.  AoE is the whole point of drayks (and fire shaping in general).  If you only care about ST, there are better options.  They just aren't "better enough" to matter given that most fights (and especially most difficult fights) have numerous enemies in them.

 

Regarding Overload: you say "a ton of damage" but it's not a ton of damage, it's just 15% of Max HP.  I never cast Regeneration, I just threw a Group Heal once very couple of rounds.  You also don't get 7 rounds of Overload, so Overload will not normally kill your drayks (or fyoras, or rots) unless something else damages them as well.  So if you kill things swiftly enough, one Group Heal covers everything.  On higher difficulty, if things don't die immediately, you're probably healing most turns anyway.

 

And you don't have to use Overload every encounter, it's there for when you need it.  So it's really not a chore to Group Heal once in a while.

[Hyperion703]

Okay, so we're back to Overloaded Drayks being the ultimate murder machines despite being tier 3, less cost, etc. Currently there is little practical reason for anyone to tech any further than that except for cosmetic or RP reasons. It's bizarre this is even a discussion. Tier 4 is more expensive and ultimately worse than tier 3 (for fire shaping). In a finished release version. Let that sink in.

 

I'm curious why these extremely obvious balance issues weren't sorted in beta testing. I can't imagine anyone intentionally making higher tier creations worse than those in lower tiers, all things considered. It doesn't seem to be the case with magic shaping tiers, and likely (?) not the case with melee shaping tiers (honestly, Idk since melee is the only tier I've not explored). How has a serious oversight (presumably) persisted this long without some kind of necessary buff or nerf?

Edited May 19 by Hyperion703

[l33tmaan]

Clearly Drayks are the apex of all creations, not drakons. Ghaldring should be retconned into a Drayk for GF3.