Powergaming the Sects?

[Slawbug]

What's the best way to do this here?

 

I poked through the scripts looking for faction membership checks.  It's a real morass.  There are 445 separate times the game checks to see what factions you're a member of.  But there are a bunch of other dependent variables that also get checked sometimes, to see e.g. if a particular zone is annoyed at you, which can happen simply because you're a member of another faction.  It's a lot to sort through.

 

That said, it looks like every faction gates the same handful of things:

- some keys or easy location access which (I think?) is not the exclusive way in anywhere

- faction quests, mostly only gated with the faction leader themself

- full access to faction trainers

- discounts to faction traders

- removing NY from items for 2-3 key zones per sect

 

The main question I'm interested in is how long to put off joining.  Once you join a faction, it does immediately cut you off from various random stuff aligned with other factions.  So it seems like there's incentive to put off joining if you just want to minmax it.  On the flip side, however, joining a faction early is by far the fastest way to gain access to top tier stuff, including creations.

 

This is particularly true for shapers, as rotghroths and gazers are superb and irreplaceable creations that far outpace earlier battle/magic shaping options.  (Drakons are good too, but they are more expensive in essence than they deserve to be, and fire shaping already has arguably the best options at all 3 lower tiers.)

 

Is the answer just "be patient, and use Phariton"?

[Mechalibur]

From a purely optimization standpoint:

 

Servants and Awakened are good for early training access. You don't even need to make it to the loyalist encampment any more, Tyallea will teach you pretty much everything, including rotghroths. You can even bypass the reputation check with leadership. The downside is joining the Servants makes the Takers hostile, you can't enter their town or do any of their quests while aligned. The Awakened get you pretty easy access to every spell and creation (other than Cockatrice) and don't turn anyone hostile.

 

All the really good stuff, however, is with the Barzites. 6 canisters require the barzite badge, and can't be bypassed by killing Barzahl. You can get an extra rank in quick action for 2,000 coins if you join them. There's a unique charm you can get if you give them an extra conduit shard. They're the only faction that teaches Creat Cockatrice (you can get a total skill of 6 this way). And they give access to shaper record turn in for lots of cash and xp. Downside is Takers and the Loyalist encampment turns hostile.

 

Takers... are a role playing choice. I was unable to find any value in joining from a gameplay perspective. The Awakened get you all the same training so much earlier.

Edited March 29 by Mechalibur

[Mechalibur]

So I guess my optimization strategy would be:

 

Say pro-servile things. Join the Servants using leadership. Loot the Warrens and buy whatever cheap training you want from Tyallea. When you want to move on to the highest level training, join the Awakened, loot the room by Pinner with the key she gives you and get augmented by Tuldaric. Then stick with them until you've done all the quests that require Takers not to be hostile, go to Darian to change your rep, then join the Barzites and clean house. 

[Slawbug]

If you're gonna do that, seems like you might as well join the Takers in between the Awakened and the Barzites.  Or is there truly no point?

[Mechalibur]

I genuinely have not been able to find any benefits to joining them.

[Randomizer]

Takers will get you access to a Create Rothgtoth, but not the Create Gazer canister since that angers th Barzites. Which really only helps Shaper or Guardian a little. The Barzite canisters are way more useful to a power gamer.

 

Almost all the items rewards from the different factions are duplicated except the really nice Barzite charm.

 

The best reason to power game joining a faction is getting the higher level training early in the game. You can find/steal all the Servant and Awakened items without joining in other places. Money doesn't make much of a difference except early in the game when you are poor.

 

From an experience point of view. Because you gain less experience with higher levels, none will help you get more than level 24 and killing Takers is really needed to do that. All that joining a faction for their quest is speed up the process to go up quicker earlier in the game.

[alhoon]

The Barzites being good for power gamers... no, I can't say it is a huge plot twist. 

The "Servants" (man I hate that name...) that proudly bend to kiss the feet of Shapers being bootlickers pushovers... again, not surprising. 

The Awakened should be less rewarding than the Takers though; the Takers are also about power. 

[Mechalibur]

6 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Takers will get you access to a Create Rothgtoth, but not the Create Gazer canister since that angers th Barzites. Which really only helps Shaper or Guardian a little. The Barzite canisters are way more useful to a power gamer.

 

Almost all the items rewards from the different factions are duplicated except the really nice Barzite charm.

 

The best reason to power game joining a faction is getting the higher level training early in the game. You can find/steal all the Servant and Awakened items without joining in other places. Money doesn't make much of a difference except early in the game when you are poor.

 

From an experience point of view. Because you gain less experience with higher levels, none will help you get more than level 24 and killing Takers is really needed to do that. All that joining a faction for their quest is speed up the process to go up quicker earlier in the game.

 

Do you actually need to join the Takers for that canister though? I was the under the impression you can get it even if they're hostile.

[Randomizer]

I'm talking about two canisters in Benerii-Uss Shaping  that are behind locked doors near the Enchantment Anvil.

[Mechalibur]

I double checked my Awakened file where I never joined the Takers. I got both of those canisters. I think the servant mind in Benerii-Uss power can unlock them for you.

[Randomizer]

Okay, I see you are right. I never went back to that set of doors.

[Mechalibur]

26 minutes ago, alhoon said:

The Barzites being good for power gamers... no, I can't say it is a huge plot twist. 

The "Servants" (man I hate that name...) that proudly bend to kiss the feet of Shapers being bootlickers pushovers... again, not surprising. 

The Awakened should be less rewarding than the Takers though; the Takers are also about power. 

 

Have to agree with you. It's kind of disappointing how little power you're actually getting from the Takers. You have to go through so many hoops to even get training in the first place, when the Awakened offer the same training right away. It guess it makes sense from a story perspective, since Tuldaric is the one who invented augmentation and the other faction require his research before offering the training (although Phariton doesn't seem to require you be augmented, which is interesting).

 

I guess the biggest difference is the canisters they offer you (either in Benerii-Uss or behind Syros) can be obtained through violent means unlike the Barzite canisters which require you to do Barzite quests. The power gaming option all comes down to Barzahl's superior storage methods 😄

[ultra112]

1 hour ago, Mechalibur said:

From a purely optimization standpoint:

 

Servants and Awakened are good for early training access. You don't even need to make it to the loyalist encampment any more, Tyallea will teach you pretty much everything, including rotghroths. You can even bypass the reputation check with leadership. The downside is joining the Servants makes the Takers hostile, you can't enter their town or do any of their quests while aligned. The Awakened get you pretty easy access to every spell and creation (other than Cockatrice) and don't turn anyone hostile.

 

All the really good stuff, however, is with the Barzites. 6 canisters require the barzite badge, and can't be bypassed by killing Barzahl. You can get an extra rank in quick action for 2,000 coins if you join them. There's a unique charm you can get if you give them an extra conduit shard. They're the only faction that teaches Creat Cockatrice (you can get a total skill of 6 this way). And they give access to shaper record turn in for lots of cash and xp. Downside is Takers and the Loyalist encampment turns hostile.

 

Takers... are a role playing choice. I was unable to find any value in joining from a gameplay perspective. The Awakened get you all the same training so much earlier.

Ok I got to say I'm quite disappointed with only the Barzites teaches you how to shape the cockatrice, tbh I think Phariton should have been able to teach you that as well.

[Mechalibur]

It might be an oversight that anyone can teach them. You get 4 canisters of Cockatrice, which is 2 more than most creations have, so it's kind of weird you can get 2 levels of training on top of it. Although Stalkthorns also have 4 canisters despite plenty of people teaching them, so maybe not!

[alhoon]

 

9 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

Ok I got to say I'm quite disappointed with only the Barzites teaches you how to shape the cockatrice, tbh I think Phariton should have been able to teach you that as well.

But is the cockatrice even worth it? Does it have the control penalty it had on Mutagen? For the essence cost I could get 2 Vlish of similar level to the Cockatrice IIRC. 

  

1 minute ago, Mechalibur said:

It might be an oversight that anyone can teach them. You get 4 canisters of Cockatrice, which is 2 more than most creations have, so it's kind of weird you can get 2 levels of training on top of it. Although Stalkthorns also have 4 canisters despite plenty of people teaching them, so maybe not!

 

Oh, ohhhh... I was talking about a 1-level Cockatrice, not 6 levels. Six levels of Stalkthorn on Cockatrice would be useful; those +2 (or more probably +3-4) training levels over other creations will count. 

 

Edited March 29 by alhoon

[Mechalibur]

Cockatrice no longer has the control penalty it did in Mutagen. It also has a higher base level and base hp. It's not amazing, still, but I think it's perfectly fine to use, especially if you got all 6 levels in the training.

[Slawbug]

Cockatrice is terrible IMO.  It costs about as much as a Gazer and is just flat out worse.  Magic Shaping has so much controlled status access via Glaahks, Ur-Glaahks, Gazers, and Eyebeasts.  And you're unlikely to get access to it before Glaahks at the very least unless you deliberate avoid buying Glaahk training.

 

Also... kinda on topic... I am so disappointed that "Beka of Rising" is still a thing.  She very clearly talks as a Taker, not a Barzite.  How was this not changed?

[ultra112]

I agree, they shouldn't cost as much as a Gazer as well

[hobomcjoe]

For the original G2 I remember Ghaldring's faction guide was helpful for figuring out how to powergame the sects: geneforge2sectsfirstcopy.doc | Powered by Box

 

But he notes on the guide that he never tried this path front to back, and I couldn't find anybody else who did. I did only part of his suggested path back then. Wonder whether this still works in the remake (or if it ever did lol).

Edited March 29 by hobomcjoe

[Mechalibur]

A lot of that guide doesn't really work for Infestation any more. Sabotaging a facility will now turn that faction's main city hostile. A lot of the rewards are different now too (letting the Eye sap your stats I think gives a pretty mediocre cloak)

[hobomcjoe]

1 hour ago, Mechalibur said:

A lot of that guide doesn't really work for Infestation any more. Sabotaging a facility will now turn that faction's main city hostile. A lot of the rewards are different now too (letting the Eye sap your stats I think gives a pretty mediocre cloak)

Ah damn - guess I should have expected that with all the reward changes.

 

By the way, does anybody know if you can rejoin the awakened if you leave them? I think I want to end up with the awakened so I'd have to do them last if you can't rejoin.

[Mechalibur]

I don't think you can rejoin any factions.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, hobomcjoe said:

Ah damn - guess I should have expected that with all the reward changes.

 

By the way, does anybody know if you can rejoin the awakened if you leave them? I think I want to end up with the awakened so I'd have to do them last if you can't rejoin.

Depending who you align with, there may practically not be awakened for you to rejoin... 

I distinctively remember everyone wanting to sabotage the Magus Complex to rob the Awakened from their power and/or murder Pinner to leave them leaderless. 

Hard to come back from that. 

[Mechalibur]

Murdering Pinner is never required, although that's one of the ways to complete the Taker's "Kill a Leader" entry quest.

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

Murdering Pinner is never required, although that's one of the ways to complete the Taker's "Kill a Leader" entry quest.

Is it? Well, I will go for Barzhal or Zakary. I recall Barzhal being easier after you mess up their horrible, horrible "keep the Creations in constant pain" devices to wreak havoc. But Zakary deserves to die as well.

 

However - although perhaps I remember wrong - if you kill Zakary the Awakened like you less. Again, I may remember wrong. 

[ClawBug]

does anyone know how the altering platform works? it seems that the "alter" does not increase my skill level. just provide a access to the trainer?

[Randomizer]

Pain, excruciating pain. It is just there as a step for the trainer to let you get trained. 

 

There is a final trainer in Outer Gaza-Uss that can train you in those highest level spells without the pain.

[alhoon]

7 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Pain, excruciating pain. It is just there as a step for the trainer to let you get trained. 

 

There is a final trainer in Outer Gaza-Uss that can train you in those highest level spells without the pain.

That's because you are a Shaper. If you were a servile you would either have to become a mad cultist with access to a little power OR go through that machine. Tuldaric is the best. 

[Slawbug]

Thematically, altering is supposed to be required in order to use any of the top tier spells and creations.

 

But unless I'm missing something, the only thing it actually gates are 3 trainers: Tuldaric (Awakened), Burham (Barzites), and Salgurdar (Takers).  It isn't actually required to use the stuff, so you can get them from canisters or from other trainers.

 

Other trainer options for the top tier are

 

Create Drakon - Learned Guas, Phariton (Unaligned)

Create Gazer - Learned Guas, Phariton (Unaligned)

Create Rotghroth - Learned Guas, Phariton (Unaligned), Tyallea (Servants), Fenen, Kima (Non-Awakened)

 

Essence Lash - Learned Guas, Tyallea (Servants), Learned Thani, Kima (Non-Awakened)

Guardian's Roar - Learned Guas, Tyallea (Servants), Learned Thani

 

Mindshield - Learned Guas, Krayoss (Takers), Tyallea (Servants), Kima (Non-Awakened)

Mass Energize - Learned Guas

Mass Restore - Learned Guas, Tyallea (Servants)

 

Airshock - Krayoss (Takers), Tyallea (Servants), Kima (Non-Awakened)

Essence Purge - Krayoss (Takers)

Wrackwave - Krayoss (Takers), Tyallea (Servants), Kima (Non-Awakened)

Mass Madness - Krayoss (Takers)

The only one with no alternate training option (albeit plenty of canisters) is Create Cockatrice, and only Burham trains in that anyway.  Note that Learned Guas appears very late in the game, and a lot of those are faction-bound, so it is possible to lock yourself out of a few if you join your final faction choice very early on.

[Slawbug]

Fort Muck is hostile if you're a Taker, and you also don't get the ambush-attack on the Fort (and its drops)

[Mechalibur]

Oh that's actually pretty significant since the gloves of spell mastery are excellent. Then again, joining the Takers before you reach Fort Muck seems pretty unlikely.

[BenS]

On 3/29/2024 at 7:52 AM, Mechalibur said:

So I guess my optimization strategy would be:

 

Say pro-servile things. Join the Servants using leadership. Loot the Warrens and buy whatever cheap training you want from Tyallea. When you want to move on to the highest level training, join the Awakened, loot the room by Pinner with the key she gives you and get augmented by Tuldaric. Then stick with them until you've done all the quests that require Takers not to be hostile, go to Darian to change your rep, then join the Barzites and clean house. 

Can you tell us the Leadership check to "join" the Servants w/out officially joining? I never would have thought of this!

Also, will it be obvious as an actual Awakened follower which quests to avoid Takers becoming hostile to you? In case you then want to go to Darian...as you say above.

[Randomizer]

Leadership of 6 lets you join the Servants without needing a pro-Shaper reputation. If you join you are officially a Servant and Awakened merchants and trainers won't deal with you until you officially leave.

 

You can't join a faction fro the benefits without blocking yourself from other faction benefits. You have to formally leave.

[alhoon]

27 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

If you join you are officially a Servant

They could have at least picked a better name! Loyalists. Faithful. Believers. Traditionals. See? I found four. Was it so hard? 

[BenS]

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

Leadership of 6 lets you join the Servants without needing a pro-Shaper reputation. If you join you are officially a Servant and Awakened merchants and trainers won't deal with you until you officially leave.

 

You can't join a faction fro the benefits without blocking yourself from other faction benefits. You have to formally leave.

Ah, I misunderstood, thank you. As for formally leaving...say I've gotten what I want from the Servants after joining, and won't miss anything (or much) by formally leaving, is that simply a dialogue option with...Zakary? Or the leader of the next faction I'd want to join, like Learned Pinner?

[Randomizer]

There is no dialogue option to leave a faction like in other games. You go to the leader a faction you want to join and hopefully they aren't hostile because of the faction you are currently in and you have the right reputation.

[Slawbug]

One exception: you can voluntarily leave the Awakened by going to Learned Pinner, because the Awakened walk the talk when it comes to individual freedom.

[Mechalibur]

39 minutes ago, Slarti said:

One exception: you can voluntarily leave the Awakened by going to Learned Pinner, because the Awakened walk the talk when it comes to individual freedom.

 

Actually the Servants are the exception, you can leave all the factions by talking to their leader, except Zakary for some odd reason. The Takers, naturally, all turn hostile if you try to do so, though.

[BenS]

1 hour ago, Mechalibur said:

 

Actually the Servants are the exception, you can leave all the factions by talking to their leader, except Zakary for some odd reason. The Takers, naturally, all turn hostile if you try to do so, though.

Hmm. So I could join the Awakened early, get much out of them w/out final faction quests; quit; then join the Barzites...same pattern; then simply choose the Servants or Takers for my final "real" faction?

[alhoon]

I think that could work because the Barzites in their first quests target the Awakened. I am not sure. 

[Mechalibur]

The first Awakened quest is to sabotage the Barzites I believe, but you get all the main benefits from the Awakened just by joining them (Pinner's key and Tuldaric's training).

 

You can also leave the Servants by joining another faction or typing "sdf 100 2 3" into cheats