G2: Creation Questions

[Chopkinsca]

Just a couple of quick questions regarding creations.

- Do I get any benefit for keeping a creation and leveling it up through experience? I know in G1 is was better to make new creations over time.

 

-When I level up a shaping skill, should I absorb the effected creations and make new ones?

 

Edit: Or I could just experiment in game. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Chopkinsca

[Vinlie]

You do benefit from keeping a creation that's a pretty good tier. I.E. keeping a fyora through the game really isn't practical, but keep, let's say a cryoa is a lot more beneficial because of it's strength and versatility.

 

You should absorb your creations if you leveled up your shaping only if it levels up your creations past where they were originally absorbed. Let's say you have a level 5 fyora. If you're shaping skill allows you to shape a fyora that's level 7, you should absorb it.

[alhoon]

You asked at the right place. We have a person here that has more or less made so much work into investigating such questions with numbers, tests and statistics that makes you think he's suffering the side-effects from Canister abuse. The diligence of work he has done for all these games is astonishing.

 

However, if you need a "quick and dirty" answer from an amateur like me that finished the game once as a Shaper instead of waiting the answer from that person:

 

I played a Shaper. I leveled up my creations and they became more powerful, until I got new creation types. Some Creations are better than others and you better get them early to level them up. I suggest that you take a good look at your creations when you buy up Shaping or get those Shaping skill bonus items.

If Creation A is level 17 and you can make the same creation at level 18+, absorb. If creation A is level 18 and you can make the same creation at level 17 or below, don't absorb.

[Chopkinsca]

Thanks for the information. I ended up just experimenting a bit, comparing  new creation to one I had for a while.

 

I'm enjoying the game so far. The only complaint is that I keep running into instant death. I'm a shaper. Maybe I just need to play better, such as scouting ahead with my creations. 

[alhoon]

Well, I played it on easy so that I wouldn't have to bother with reloads or bothering to collect everything and optimizing build etc. Regardless, shaper is pretty easy if you keep your guy away during combat and concentrate on healing and blessings so that you won't be attacked. Just keep in mind that a "clean hands" Shaper (i.e. a Shaper that doesn't personally fight) is a healthy Shaper. A couple more creations will reduce the XP you get slightly but since you get XP based on your level difference with your enemies it's not as bad as it sounds.

 

I am sure there are more efficient ways to play a Shaper than this but it worked for me and (since I was playing on easy) I breezed through the game. This is the only game I played on easy cause the inventory screen was not something I wanted to mess with. I wanted to experience the story and not the battles.

Edited November 1, 2018 by alhoon

[Randomizer]

Playing with more creations rather than a few really powerful ones makes a difference in keeping your Shaper alive. My first time I went with two and near the end no matter how far away I moved the Shaper and hid him, he was always getting attacked and killed.

 

Depending upon the game, certain creation types are more useful since Jeff adjust them between games to reduce exploits.

[Chopkinsca]

I'm playing on normal at the moment. I started with tricky, but felt every place I went was a "come back when stronger" kind of place. I'm running just two cryoa's. I don't really have problems in combat. When I said instant death, I mean things like entering a zone that has a damage aura, or whatever. Before I realize what's going on, I'm dead. The Thahd dump grounds was anoying as well, those thahds with a auras. Then in another zone, entered a house that had some kind of poison going on in it. Dead before I could turn myself around.

 

I do want to get a third creation going. Not sure what it will be.

[alhoon]

Since you're still kinda early, may I suggest you go for Magic Shaping and Vlish as soon as possible? Generally it is considered more optimal to concentrate on one type of creation and I believe magic is the best in GF2. A temporary thahd or clawbug till you get better creations is doable too and I wouldn't think you need to invest in Fire or Battle to have them perform respectably in the first zones. There are also some "free" guys you may recruit.

 

I think (I could be wrong) that items that give +str to creations are bugged in GF2 and I also think that Shaping above 10 gives less levels. So, I would suggest getting magic Shaping to 7-8 (It could go up with items to 10) and also start investing a bit in intelligence so you could afford more creations.

[Chopkinsca]

Since I went with magic shaping in Geneforge 1, I thought I'd go with fire this time around. I added another Cryoa and found a huge roamer. I also have enough essence left over so I can do quite a bit of healing and blessing. All in all, things are going swimmingly. 

[Quiconque]

G1 is the only game in which it's favorable to make new creations throughout the game, and even then, it's not always the best option.  In all other games, you want to make good creations as early as possible and keep them alive forever.  The definition of "good creations" differs from game to game.  Fire is doable in G2, thanks mainly to Cryoas and Cryodrayks.  When you do G3, if you play a Shaper, you'll want to go Magic for sure.

[Alberich]

The other folk in this thread have done a lot more replays than I ever did, but I always played as a Shaper and always went with the "frequent reabsorption/recreation" route.  Part of it was that I didn't want to reload every time a creation got killed...that happened too often.  Partly it was because I liked to vary my creation mix according to the enemies I was facing (without spoiling...it's intuitively obvious that some opponents will damage some creations more than others; and I noticed that some will attack certain creations in preference to others, at least in some of the games they will--so you can vary the creation mix to draw fire as well as dish it out).  And then there are the essence pools to exploit.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Alberich

[Chopkinsca]

7 hours ago, And my heart too. said:

 When you do G3, if you play a Shaper, you'll want to go Magic for sure.

 

I'll try to remember that for when I get to G3. I'll be playing Avadon 1 next, so G3 will be after that.

 

Early on I was treating my creations as disposable. Now I'm trying my best to keep them alive, reloading if one dies. 

 

Maybe I'll add a small question here. What do I do when there are two disarm-able mines close to each other? I can disarm one, but I'm close enough to trigger the other one. Is that just more for a character who can take one blast?

[googoogjoob]

Usually you can disarm one mine, then quickly click on a second nearby mine and disarm it before it goes off, but you can only do this in the real-time non-combat mode, and it might take a few tries.

[Nim]

Mines in G2 are finicky. Sometimes they explode before you even reach them and they can go off during your turn in combat mode. If you have to take the damage get Augmentation/Essence Armor (armor pots) as they add hitpoints (flat base value+1/lvl) and protection/steel skin. Also putting the difficulty to easy should cut the damage they do a bit.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Nim

[alhoon]

10 hours ago, And my heart too. said:

G1 is the only game in which it's favorable to make new creations throughout the game, and even then, it's not always the best option.  In all other games, you want to make good creations as early as possible and keep them alive forever.  The definition of "good creations" differs from game to game.  Fire is doable in G2, thanks mainly to Cryoas and Cryodrayks.  When you do G3, if you play a Shaper, you'll want to go Magic for sure.

 

Cryodrayks? They were very expensive for their buck in my humble opinion. Of course, I didn't get them early nor I had invested in fire so I may be underestimating them.

 

GF3 you'll want to go Magic for sure whatever you are playing.

[Chopkinsca]

2 hours ago, Nim said:

Mines in G2 are finicky.

 

Indeed they are. I tried one pair quite a few times before giving up. Just today I've disarmed two other sets. Good thing loading a saved game takes no time at all.

[Quiconque]

Ice is a really favorable attack type in G2 due to inherent accuracy and stunning bonuses, while fire attacks just have bad stats period.  Magic Shaping's still better in G2, but Fire's functional.

[Vinlie]

G2 Guardian>literally everything in the game

[Chopkinsca]

6 hours ago, Vinlie said:

G2 Guardian>literally everything in the game

 

I want to play a guardian. I also want to play an agent. Maybe in the future when I replay the game. I feel shaper is the class the game is meant to be played with, at least the first time through. 

[alhoon]

37 minutes ago, Chopkinsca said:

 

I want to play a guardian. I also want to play an agent. Maybe in the future when I replay the game. I feel shaper is the class the game is meant to be played with, at least the first time through. 

I would agree.  

 

Magic Shaping's still better in G2, but Fire's functional.  

Actually in GF4 wingbolts are also very powerful for their cost.

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by alhoon

[TheKian]

On 11/2/2018 at 3:31 AM, Chopkinsca said:

Maybe I'll add a small question here. What do I do when there are two disarm-able mines close to each other? I can disarm one, but I'm close enough to trigger the other one. Is that just more for a character who can take one blast?

Spam the escape button. Opening and closing the menu resets whatever timer is used to make mines explode. You can literally walk past a field of mines (SOMETIMES even spore mines) without one exploding by doing this.

 

On the topic of creations, anyhow...

Basically, the stats of your creations are their level divided by 2. You can improve these quite considerably, considering, with creation stat boost items or investing essence into them (except for strength boost items, which don't work). An increase in Shaping skill increases their starting level by one. As a result, absorbing a creation to make a new one is only viable if you increase your Shaping skill right after creating it, so it hasn't leveled up yet. Otherwise, you should only replace creations with better types.

[Chopkinsca]

10 minutes ago, TheKian said:

(except for strength boost items, which don't work)

 

Ooh, that's a shame. I just found a leader's sword and thought the +2 to creation strength was pretty sweet. 

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Chopkinsca said:

 

Ooh, that's a shame. I just found a leader's sword and thought the +2 to creation strength was pretty sweet. 

Well, I made a work-around mod for GF3. Would you like me to try for GF2?

[Chopkinsca]

4 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Well, I made a work-around mod for GF3. Would you like me to try for GF2?

 

I'll probably be done with the game soon, but sure. I'll have to remember your little mod for when I play G3. I downloaded it so hopefully I don't forget.

 

Just wondering, are there any challenge zones in the game? Zones with nothing but a challenge for the brave and/or the sadistic.

[alhoon]

45 minutes ago, Chopkinsca said:

Just wondering, are there any challenge zones in the game? Zones with nothing but a challenge for the brave and/or the sadistic.

 

Yes, there are challenge zones. They are not for the brave, they are for the masochists. :P
You don't really need to do those. By the time you can beat those, you can beat the whole game, so the items you get from there are already redundant IMO.

[Quiconque]

16 hours ago, And my heart too. said:

Magic Shaping's still better in G2, but Fire's functional.

7 hours ago, alhoon said:

Actually in GF4 wingbolts are also very powerful for their cost.

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say here, since you quoted a comment about G2.

[Chopkinsca]

Ah. I put a dent in Outer Gazak-Uss then found out it's a challenge zone.

 

I feel I'm getting somewhat close to the end. I do have a few zones that I'm not sure if I'll ever do. I have also yet to join a sect, so I think I'll get on that.

[TheKian]

You know, you don't HAVE to join a sect to win the game. If you just murder literally everything that moves, you'll get a pretty decent (pro-Shaper) ending.

 

Also, you should totally do Gazak-Uss. In addition to having canisters of all the top-tier creations, you can get the omnicharm. Of course, putting it off until you've finished the rest of the game makes it a little pointless.

[Chopkinsca]

I'm not sure who I'd join, now. I'm kind of pro-creation, especially since it's who I spent G1 dealing with. I was going to join the takers, but the first quest to kill someone, I just couldn't do it. 

I'm not sure if I'll do Gazak-Uss. I might end up just wanting to get the game over with, but maybe not. I'll give it a shot.

[Vinlie]

16 hours ago, alhoon said:

I would agree.  

 

 

 

Actually in GF4 wingbolts are also very powerful for their cost.

 

wingbolts>unbound lmao

[Quiconque]

The non-aligned ending in G2 is by far the most satisfying ending in any Geneforge game.  IMO.

[alhoon]

10 hours ago, And my heart too. said:

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say here, since you quoted a comment about G2.

Quoted half the part I was referring to. 

You mentioned that Magic shaping is the way to go for GF3 and I added it is also very good in GF4 too.

[alhoon]

15 hours ago, Chopkinsca said:

 

I'll probably be done with the game soon, but sure.

 

Botched it for GF2. Worked for a couple test items (like blade of Empathy) but I probably mistyped something somewhere after that. It is a bit of a pain to change them all again.

So, while I verified that:

	it_pet_stats_to_affect 0 = 202;
	it_pet_stats_addition 0 = 1;
	it_pet_stats_to_affect 1 = 203;
	it_pet_stats_addition 1 = 1;

works to give bonuses to hit and damage levels in GF2 too, I have to go over the whole item list again and change strength to creations push other stats down etc. (I.e. if an item gives bonuses to both strength and other creation stats, you have to change the numbers of the other stats too)

 

I'll do it at another time.

Edited November 4, 2018 by alhoon

[Chopkinsca]

I think I must be really close to the end now.

Spoiler

I destroyed the Geneforge

 

I allied with the Awakened, so I just have to do that quest line to finish up?

[alhoon]

You don't have to. You can literally walk away from the valley and tell the Shapers what's happening here.
But the Awakened ending is IMO the best.

Edited November 4, 2018 by alhoon

[Quiconque]

8 hours ago, alhoon said:

Quoted half the part I was referring to. 

You mentioned that Magic shaping is the way to go for GF3 and I added it is also very good in GF4 too.

 

On 11/2/2018 at 9:40 PM, And my heart too. said:

Ice is a really favorable attack type in G2 due to inherent accuracy and stunning bonuses, while fire attacks just have bad stats period.  Magic Shaping's still better in G2, but Fire's functional.

 

Um, alhoon, as you can see, that entire post was only about G2.  Again, I don't know what you are talking about.

[Chopkinsca]

54 minutes ago, alhoon said:

You don't have to. You can literally walk away from the valley and tell the Shapers what's happening here.
But the Awakened ending is IMO the best.

 

I didn't know I could walk away like that. I just did that and checked out that ending. Kind of a depressing one, so I'll see what the awakened ending is like.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Chopkinsca said:

 

I didn't know I could walk away like that. I just did that and checked out that ending. Kind of a depressing one, so I'll see what the awakened ending is like.

 

Much better IMO!

 

2 hours ago, And my heart too. said:

Um, alhoon, as you can see, that entire post was only about G2.  Again, I don't know what you are talking about.

 

O...kaaaay, I see the problem now. I thought you mentioned GF3. You didn't.

What I was talking about is: Magic (as you said) is good in GF2, and it is IMO the best in GF3 and good in GF4. That was all. I thought you mentioned GF3 but I misread your post.

Edited November 4, 2018 by alhoon

[Chopkinsca]

38 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

Much better IMO! .

The awakened ending was indeed much better. Now I'm done with the game. I'll save some of the other endings for a second playthrough some time in my life. Now I think I'll move on to the first Avadon.

[Quiconque]

The "just walk away from the valley" ending is not the non-aligned ending, just to be clear.  That's the "I give up" ending.  😛   The non-aligned ending is what you get when you destroy the Takers and Barzites (and optionally the Awakened and Loyalists, that's up to you, IIRC) without allying with any sect.  (Well, without remaining allied with any sect, if we're being specific.)  And it's great.  Not depressing at all, one of the most triumphant and positive endings in the series.

[Chopkinsca]

9 minutes ago, And my heart too. said:

The "just walk away from the valley" ending is not the non-aligned ending, just to be clear.  That's the "I give up" ending.  😛   

 

Oh, that makes sense that it's the giving up ending. It was so depressing, though I have nothing against a depressing ending (I've done that before). I was aligned with the Awakened when I walked away. 

 

Unrelated, it might take me some time to get used to Avadon.