A-EftP - any way to make pure archer viable?

[dave s]

I'm not sure why Jeff has such trouble balancing his games, when he has a community of number crunchers who analyze everything.

 

But that said, anything I could tweak with the editor, or in the game files, that would allow an archer to keep up?

[Lilith]

Archers are totally viable. They're just not as powerful as other options, mostly because of their inferior damage output. I guess the easiest way to fix it would be to edit the item definitions to make bows much stronger.

 

I don't think it's that he has trouble balancing the game, exactly, so much as that he just doesn't care that much about all options being equally good.

[Kinsume]

The archer's skills are pretty good, its ability to go multiple times in a single round while hasted and such, while being able to shoot different targets, gives is a nice utility option in any party. However as stated, there just aren't any good bows later on in the game so the archer falls behind significantly in dps.

[Aoslare]

Bows aren't the issue, the low damage multiplier of bow attacks is. Edit that instead. I guess you could make some unique bows more powerful, too.

 

Hmm. Maybe I should give this game the G3 treatment...

[Kinsume]

G3 treatment?

[Acky]

I've been playing on Normal-Hard in my first game and so far my Archer is doing decent damage. 40 points per shot at level 23, probably mid-way into the game content wise. There's a couple of Quicksilver/Action-Point increasing items in the game that take away Strength I've given to her. Add that with all the skill points used and she gets a second shot 3/4 of the time. Also note that when the number-crunching folk say that so-and-so isn't "viable", they're talking about on Torrent. Guardians were playable in G3 on normal.

 

I don't think I've ever played a game where something wasn't the best or the most "efficient", so don't be too hard on SW.

[Kinsume]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

I've been playing on Normal-Hard in my first game and so far my Archer is doing decent damage. 40 points per shot at level 23, probably mid-way into the game content wise. There's a couple of Quicksilver/Action-Point increasing items in the game that take away Strength I've given to her. Add that with all the skill points used and she gets a second shot 3/4 of the time. Also note that when the number-crunching folk say that so-and-so isn't "viable", they're talking about on Torrent. Guardians were playable in G3 on normal.

I don't think I've ever played a game where something wasn't the best or the most "efficient", so don't be too hard on SW.

My level 9 dual wielder hits twice for 60-80 damage on Torment and he is only level 9. Hasted he hits 4 times per round. Just saying

Edit : That is with War Blessing too, which is constantly up.

[Acky]

Well my Bow-guy can shoot you in the face before you can swing your chop-sticks, so blaw

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

G3 treatment?

Slarty once wrote an alternate version of a Geneforge 3 file with item characteristics so the damages were closer to the older games. It corrected some flaws that he saw in the game.

[Kinsume]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

G3 treatment?

Slarty once wrote an alternate version of a Geneforge 3 file with item characteristics so the damages were closer to the older games. It corrected some flaws that he saw in the game.

I would be very interested in seeing that done here if hes willing to put the time into it. We could even get a balance thread going to get everyone's opinions on how things should be changed xD

[Aoslare]

That isn't what I did at all. I changed the statistics that went into creations, attacks, spells, and items to make the game (1) more balanced, and (2) more interesting -- I wasn't just following the older games. I rebalanced the creations pretty drastically, made some spells more useful, and turned a lot of lame unique equipment into interesting stuff with more power but more trade-offs.

 

I'm currently looking through some of the AEFTP definitions files to see how viable this would be. I have some ideas already. I'll have to test them out.

 

If a few thoughtful people want to make a few thoughtful suggestions, I might consider them. I have no interest in a "general opinion thread" so that everyone here can extrapolate wildly inaccurate conclusions from their own unrepresentative anecdotes. We get enough of that as it is.

[Kinsume]

Well the key things that come to mind are polearm, bows and buff duration. Polearms really need some type of piercing/cleaving attack if possible as well as a significant damage boost. Bows need a damage boost for the later game ones. As for buff durations, 3 turns seems a bit too low. 4 turns would be great, 5 would be even better. More than that however I think would be too much. That however is just personal opinion.

 

In terms of the skills, the weapon skills seem to be just fine as is for the initial ones. The bow tree seems to be pretty good, coupled with a boost in bow's damage I think they'll start to shine. What I think it is that caused the bow nerf so much is that previous games used ammunition that added attack damage of their own didn't they?

 

Spell efficiency should maybe be put to 3% per level instead of 2%. Parry, hardiness and blademasters are good. Quick action could be a bit more useful, and maybe a little tweek with the numbers for First Aid to make it worth investing in due to the lack of a resting option in this game.

[Aoslare]

Bows and polearms need to be improved. I think a damage boost is the main way to go. This actually makes sense, in terms of real world physics, too. Better unique bows and polearms, too.

 

Arrows haven't been around since BoA in 2004. Bows were at their best in the first game without arrows, actually, A4 in 2005.

 

For buffs... I hate buffs. I hate the fact that you cast them before combat like a stupid chore. However, since I have no way of altering what status effects do, I don't see much I can do to improve them.Likewise, consumable items. I hate consumable items. I will have to give them some thought.

 

I'm pretty sure I can't edit skill effects either. (This is in contrast to Avadon, where they can be edited.)

 

Other things I can and will do, however:

- Remove the crazy dominance of AoE spells

- More variety among spell effects

- Balance the battle disciplines better so that it isn't Adrenaline Rush Uber Alles.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Bows and polearms need to be improved. I think a damage boost is the main way to go. This actually makes sense, in terms of real world physics, too. Better unique bows and polearms, too.

The trouble with giving polearms a straight damage boost is that it'll be hard to make them meaningfully different from swords. Personally I'd go for balancing them by giving them a really high cleave chance, like 50% or more, if possible; I'd rather have a wider range of genuinely different strategic options than, well, cleave to real-world physics. (Alternatively, if it would offend your sense of realism less, give swords the high cleave chance and either reduce their damage or boost polearm damage by a lot to compensate.)

[Kendroxide]

Wow, I really like the way this thread is going and thanks a lot House of S for considering modifying this game. This will definitely warrant another play through once I finish the game. I agree with Lilith that swords should get a cleave chance (and maybe lower damage) while increasing the damage on poles.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Slarty: The changes you've suggested all sound sensible. A few other suggestions:

 

Shields also probably deserve a buff if you're thinking of buffing other combat options relative to dual wielding. Could be a straight armor bonus, a better evasion bonus, better passives on magic shields, or some/all of the above.

 

If you're planning major revamps to existing spells, I'd recommend going over the spell list from your Slartanalysis and improving the spells you didn't recommend buying. Since your lack of enthusiasm (which I found mostly corresponded with my own opinion of the spells' relative merits) indicates that these spells either aren't very worthwhile at all, or don't gain meaningfully from upgrades, it seems like improvements to them would make the game more balanced overall.

 

I could probably think of other suggestions, but they'd have less basis outside of anecdote, and I also don't know just how far you want to go with this mod.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Illegal Furniture

Shields also probably deserve a buff if you're thinking of buffing other combat options relative to dual wielding. Could be a straight armor bonus, a better evasion bonus, better passives on magic shields, or some/all of the above.

One has to be careful about this for fear of benefiting archers and spellcasters too much, since they have little reason not to use shields already. Significantly increasing the to-hit penalties and especially the weight of shields alongside the defensive bonuses might do the trick.

[Aoslare]

Increased range on polearms is another option. Not sure if (or how) the engine will accept this, but I'm gonna try it out.

 

Polearms could be further generalized to hafted weapons, with the inclusion of higher-damage thrusting weapons (spears), cleaving swinging weapons (axes), and stunning weakening bashing weapons (maces, flails). The icons would have to look a bit weird, but this would give that weapon group some more variety.

 

Shields: Also worth improving. Lilith's caution is warranted. To-hit penalties and weight might do the trick. Also, if the defensive bonuses come mostly in the form of a parry bonus, that is already more useful to a front-line fighter than a rear-position mage.

[Antione Villia]

My archer does 60-100 damage each shot at lvl 15 with a 50% chance of shooting twice and often causing a status effect on hit. And I'm not even all damage, about half of my point have been put into dodge.