Well-Actually War Trall Niemand Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 We've discussed many times before asking Jeff to release the BoA source code, and with Avadon out and Jeff working on his rewrite of the original Avernum Trilogy now looks like a good time to tackle this seriously. I propose that we meet on AIM to organize and discuss our plans. People whose involvement would be particularly valuable (in my estimation): People who have had significant involvement in open-source development based on other code released by Jeff, such as Celtic Minstrel and Tridash. People who have done a lot of designing, like Lazarus, Kelandon, and Ephesos. As many users of the game, particularly designers, as possible. With regards to scheduling: I would very much like to be present, but I realize that my contribution isn't strictly necessary. Unfortunately, I have work until 6 p.m. (Central Time) on week days, and from September 17-24 I will be traveling for work, and will almost certainly be unable to be around online for any substantial period of time. One possibility would be to do this tonight or tomorrow, despite the short notice. This isn't totally crazy, since we may very well need to discuss multiple times, and we can deal with not everyone being able to attend every chat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'm free tonight or tomorrow pretty much any time. I'm available on weekday afternoons and any time Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Nioca Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I haven't been very active in the Blades community as of late, but I'm available for tonight or tomorrow. I'm also available pretty much any time in the evening on any day of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dintiradan Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'm going to a car rally this evening, and in general I'm often busy Sundays and Mondays. But I'll start making a habit of idling in AIM chatroom 'blades' whenever I'm around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Duck in a Top Hat Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'm not entirely sure when I'll be free but I'll do my best to free up time whenever's best for everyone. If we're going to be discussing future plans for the open-source BoA I could brainstorm a few possible features to add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'm generally free on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. Thursday evenings are also fine. I'm not sure if I'd have any valuable input, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dintiradan Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Any ideas for future features would be welcome, but if OBoE is any indication, the bulk of the early work will be devoted to setting up a stable build, fixing pre-existing bugs, and ensuring that the game works on modern machines. Actually, what I should do is go through the BoE forum and read up on the pitfalls that were encountered when BoE was first opened. Some of the issues were due to differing ideas of where OBoE was headed, but a lot of the other issues were basic things that could easily have been avoided, like licence incompatibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall BainIhrno Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'd come, but I had to delete my AIM account because it got bugged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Niemand Posted September 11, 2011 Author Share Posted September 11, 2011 Okay then, let's try for tonight at around 8 p.m. Central Time (UTC time Monday, September 12, 2011 at 01:00) in chatroom 'blades'. We can at least start the discussion, which will likely need to be continued later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I will be there. Originally Posted By: BainIhrno I'd come, but I had to delete my AIM account because it got bugged. What's stopping you from creating a new account? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall BainIhrno Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 It might be bugged from the moment it starts up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Karoka Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: BainIrhno It might be bugged from the moment it starts up. Don't knock it 'til you try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall BainIhrno Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Maybe I will, but what's been happening is people have been getting spam (which I didn't send) from my account, and shutting it down was the only way to go. I'm not sure I could add much if all we're discussing is source code, though. However, if we want to discuss the contest too, I could contribute there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Forgotten! Again! :'( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Kelandon Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I'm going to venture back onto AIM for evenings this weekend just in case I could be useful in such a chat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 The general consensus of the chat last night seemed to be that we should wait until after the PC release of A:EftP to ask Jeff about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Duck in a Top Hat Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Also I think we were in the meantime going to try and prove to Jeff that the community is still alive by releasing as many new scenarios as possible and finishing the two contests we have going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Niemand Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Also I think we were in the meantime going to try and prove to Jeff that the community is still alive by releasing as many new scenarios as possible and finishing the two contests we have going on. Indeed, this is a very important aspect. I will also make an effort to tidy up the editor website and get the documentation up to date. (So if I don't show progress on this, you guys need to yell at me.) Related to this, at some point in the past I wrote up a carefully researched history of the editor, which I can now no longer find. Since it is now much harder to recreate the research, if anyone could locate that and point me to it I would be very gratefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Also I think we were in the meantime going to try and prove to Jeff that the community is still alive by releasing as many new scenarios as possible and finishing the two contests we have going on.I'd have finished my contest scenario by now if it didn't keep running into bugs that are the game's problem and not mine. Meanwhile, I got bored and started making something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I didn't attend the chat, and I'm not really a member of the BoA community, but I have watched and observed most of what's gone on with BoE, OBoE, and BoA for some years now. After speaking with Tyranicus, I'd like to make the following suggestion: RELEASE AND ADVERTISE PLATFORM-SPECIFIC, READY-TO-USE, COMPILED VERSIONS OF OBOE FIRST, OR YOUR REQUEST IS DOOMED TO FAILURE. Great work has been done on OBoE and it sounds super functional, but for some reason, it hasn't been released in an easy-to-use form; or if it has been, the advertising has been so atrocious that I haven't even noticed despite reading the Blades forums and sometimes wanting to play BoE. If I were Jeff, and I had to weigh the down sides: (1) very unlikely but nonetheless possible negative publicity coming from some unforeseen consequence of the release (2) definitely losing whatever tiny trickle of money BoA purchases bring in each year versus the up side: (1) hopefully leading to an updated, augmented, more widely compatible release of BoA ...then I would probably look to BoE to weigh these criteria. And though the down sides for releasing BoE's code have been essentially nonexistant, the up sides have been nonexistant too. Now, I am well aware that BoA has more life to it than BoE did at the time of that code base's release, and in particular, the work done with the BoA editor code base is very promising. But given Jeff's general and overwhelming conservatism when it comes to making decisions about his business, you will really need to make a case for the benefits of such a release: and it will be hard to do that with the unconscious body of OBoE attached to the wheels of your chariot. Wake it up and publish it, for goodness's sake! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Niemand Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 RELEASE AND ADVERTISE PLATFORM-SPECIFIC, READY-TO-USE, COMPILED VERSIONS OF OBOE FIRST, OR YOUR REQUEST IS DOOMED TO FAILURE. THESE ARE IN FACT ALREADY AVAILABLE. They could be better advertised, however. We will need Celtic Minstrel to deal with some aspects of this. Your analysis of Jeff's considerations seems cogent; we'll have to keep this in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 RELEASE AND ADVERTISE PLATFORM-SPECIFIC, READY-TO-USE, COMPILED VERSIONS OF OBOE FIRST, OR YOUR REQUEST IS DOOMED TO FAILURE. THESE ARE IN FACT ALREADY AVAILABLE. They could be better advertised, however. We will need Celtic Minstrel to deal with some aspects of this. Your analysis of Jeff's considerations seems cogent; we'll have to keep this in mind. Where? The Google Code page appears to have only CBoE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Niemand Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Ah, my mistake; I don't know what different letters prepended onto BoE mean. Capital letters retracted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 It's my understanding that CBoE is Classic Blades of Exile, the original code made compatible with modern architecture, and OBoE is Open Blades of Exile, the enhanced version with new features. I could be wrong about this though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I believe Tyranicus is right about the letters. But if there are ready-to-use, compiled versions even of CBoE available, I've never heard of them nor seen them. Does somebody have a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Niemand Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Slartucker But if there are ready-to-use, compiled versions even of CBoE available, I've never heard of them nor seen them. Does somebody have a link? I didn't post a link, but I did describe where to find them in response to one of your posts yesterday. Here's a link form of the same thing. There are somethings that could be improved, as Tyranicus noted in that other thread, and maybe we can rework the BoE Forum header to make them easier to locate from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Indeed I missed that! Thanks Niemand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dintiradan Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I mentioned this in the chat, but I'm doubtful about BoA being opened in the near future because there isn't a current need to maintain it the way BoE needed maintenance. The primary reason BoE was opened was because it needed Carbonization and Universalization, and that isn't the case with BoA (correct me if I'm wrong, Mac users). Another thing I forgot to mention in the chat was other resources that were made free to distribute when BoE was opened, like graphics and sounds. Jeff probably wouldn't want to completely open BoA until all three of the Avernums have been uplifted. We can ask for the source earlier, but I think we'll be most likely to succeed once BoA hits the old products page. Every game on that list has either been upgraded or uplifted or opened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Callie Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 BoA no longer works on OS Lion, since Lion no longer supports PPC apps. You can run it with WineBottler but that's rather inconvenient. It actually annoys me to the point of playing it on my Windows partition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Niemand Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 There is a universal version of BoA, however; at least the copy I have labeled v1.2.1 (which is conflictingly also labeled v1.1) is: Code: $ lipo -info Blades\ of\ Avernum\ Release Architectures in the fat file: Blades of Avernum Release are: ppc i386 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Excalibur BoA no longer works on OS Lion, since Lion no longer supports PPC apps. You can run it with WineBottler but that's rather inconvenient. It actually annoys me to the point of playing it on my Windows partition. The version of BoA on Spiderweb's site is universal and runs in Lion. Also, I stopped using WineBottler for running Windows apps. The fact that it creates a complete copy of the app in the user Library without giving an option not to do this is absolutely ridiculous. Wineskin works much better for making standalone apps using Wine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Callie Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I guess that goes to show I shouldn't be using a five-year-old disk. Thank you! *happily hops over to SW's site* Edit: It turns out I was using version 1.1, which I imagine must be fairly old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 There's a Windows version of OBoE (or CBoE) that's released and functioning, but unfortunately there isn't a Mac version. However, if the merging codebases work is completed (not sure if he committed it to the svn), a Mac CBoE may be releasable from that. I think I should mention that I don't use AIM; however, remember the IRC channel I started that never really caught on? I never bothered to drop it, so it's still there and I can usually be found there. Alternatively there's Skype. Is there a log of the meeting from the 12th or did it not end up happening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel I think I should mention that I don't use AIM; however, remember the IRC channel I started that never really caught on? I never bothered to drop it, so it's still there and I can usually be found there. Alternatively there's Skype. No offense, but most people here do not use IRC and do use AIM. I'm not going to bother downloading and configuring a client just because one person doesn't want to use AIM. As to a chat log, PM me your email address, and I will send it to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Additionally, AIM has been the standard platform for SW chats for at least the last five years, and I suspect quite a bit longer than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 No offense, but most people here do not use IRC and do use AIM. I'm not going to bother downloading and configuring a client just because one person doesn't want to use AIM. As to a chat log, PM me your email address, and I will send it to you. I was merely mentioning where I could be found. Besides, you don't need to download and configure a client to use IRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel Besides, you don't need to download and configure a client to use IRC. You don't need to download a client to use AIM either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Aran Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 It is technically possible to bridge an AIM room and an IRC channel. The effort involved is a multiple of that required to install a client, though, so it's not really worth it. For what it's worth, if we decided to switch I wouldn't miss AIM one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast keira Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) It is technically possible to bridge an AIM room and an IRC channel. The effort involved is a multiple of that required to install a client, though, so it's not really worth it. For what it's worth, if we decided to switch I wouldn't miss AIM one bit. Neither would I, but for some reason the internet at my house blocks IRC D: Of course it's quite possibly the worse ISP known to mankind, but that's another story. Edited November 15, 2012 by Aᴙᴛʏᴀᴐᴎᴀᴀᴙ The crap dish has fried five routers and two LAN cards...and it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tyranicus Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel Besides, you don't need to download and configure a client to use IRC. You don't need to download a client to use AIM either. But, if I'm not mistaken, you do need an account, which is not the case for IRC. Still, I'm not trying to convince anyone to move, merely noting that the channel exists and that I'm generally to be found there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: The Turtle Stays The crap dish has fried five routers and two LAN cards...and it's limited to 256kbps down...AND behind a NAT. You can fix the NAT problem by bridging your modem, if that is possible. If not, you can bridge your router. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 On topic... I don't really have much to say, but the letter looked good, and I suppose I should try to get some work done on that wxWidgets stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dintiradan Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Quote: Neither would I, but for some reason the internet at my house blocks IRC D: "Only criminals use IRC." (Really wish I was making that line up.) Anyway, I would also prefer IRC to AIM (heck, I hadn't heard of AIM before coming here), but the bulk of people here use it, signing up for AIM is pretty easy, and once you use something like Pidgin the differences pretty much go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast keira Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tyranicus Originally Posted By: The Turtle Stays The crap dish has fried five routers and two LAN cards...and it's limited to 256kbps down...AND behind a NAT. You can fix the NAT problem by bridging your modem, if that is possible. If not, you can bridge your router. It's...he ends up putting a whole bunch of clients behind one IP. According to my router, my external IP is 172.22.1.106, while from the internet's side I am 206.127.77.126. Meanwhile, I'd really like to have my server box at 192.168.1.8 contactable from outside my LAN. I figure the only way to do that is to have a middleman proxy that my machine gets stuff from...but then i'm paying for a server which rather defeats the purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Goldenqueen It's...he ends up putting a whole bunch of clients behind one IP. According to my router, my external IP is 172.22.1.106, while from the internet's side I am 206.127.77.126. 172.x is a local subnet. Your modem is creating a local network. This is very common with DSL and satellite connections. If you are able to login to your modem, you may be able to bridge it, so that it is just sending traffic and not creating a network. This will result in your router pulling a WAN IP from your ISP's server. If you are unable to do this, you can bridge your router, so that it is not creating a a local network. Then your computers would all pull addresses from the modem. Then you'll have a single NAT. You would still have to set up port forwarding in your router if you bridge your modem, or in your modem if you bridge your router, if you want to connect to your server over the WAN. If, however, your ISP really is using the same WAN IP for multiple clients, then I would say that you should leave rural Montana and get a decent ISP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Aran Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Goldenqueen Originally Posted By: Tyranicus Originally Posted By: The Turtle Stays The crap dish has fried five routers and two LAN cards...and it's limited to 256kbps down...AND behind a NAT. You can fix the NAT problem by bridging your modem, if that is possible. If not, you can bridge your router. It's...he ends up putting a whole bunch of clients behind one IP. According to my router, my external IP is 172.22.1.106, while from the internet's side I am 206.127.77.126. Meanwhile, I'd really like to have my server box at 192.168.1.8 contactable from outside my LAN. I figure the only way to do that is to have a middleman proxy that my machine gets stuff from...but then i'm paying for a server which rather defeats the purpose. It might be easier than you think. I have been logging onto my home computer (and hosting a small webserver, with more flexibility than Dreamhost) for a long time now by forwarding ports from the router to the computer. While the external IP is dynamically assigned, I use a dynamic DNS service to make sure it always resolves correctly. @Celtic Minstrel: Where is the IRC channel? I've trawled through the boards but not found earlier mentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast keira Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tyranicus If, however, your ISP really is using the same WAN IP for multiple clients, then I would say that you should leave rural Montana and get a decent ISP. This. My neighbor/"friend"/person who i bullied into registering on calref has the exact same IP as me. Thing is, if i plug a machine directly into the modem/antenna, other client's computers (who are directly plugged in on their side) will show up in Windows. In one case I was able to print "I AM WATCHING YOU" to some random person's printer. It's a very secure system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Polaran @Celtic Minstrel: Where is the IRC channel? I've trawled through the boards but not found earlier mentions. There was a topic somewhere that was pinned briefly. Maybe it got pruned, I dunno. Anyway, it's #spidweb on irc.nightstar.net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan tridash Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Now that new avernum's nearly out for windows, should we follow this up at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dintiradan Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 This is what I said back in September, and I still think it's the case: Originally Posted By: Dintiradan I mentioned this in the chat, but I'm doubtful about BoA being opened in the near future because there isn't a current need to maintain it the way BoE needed maintenance. The primary reason BoE was opened was because it needed Carbonization and Universalization, and that isn't the case with BoA (correct me if I'm wrong, Mac users). Another thing I forgot to mention in the chat was other resources that were made free to distribute when BoE was opened, like graphics and sounds. Jeff probably wouldn't want to completely open BoA until all three of the Avernums have been uplifted. We can ask for the source earlier, but I think we'll be most likely to succeed once BoA hits the old products page. Every game on that list has either been upgraded or uplifted or opened. It would be cool if JV opens it earlier, but I don't see him doing so, since BoA still runs fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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