Random Game Generation and/or Game Editors

[NTJedi]

Any news on if Spiderweb software plans to provide a random game generation for an upcoming game? By random game generation I mean the town locations are random, the quests are random, the monsters(&bosses) are random, the NPCs are random, the events are random, the terrain is random, etc., etc., .

 

 

 

Any news on if Spiderweb software plans to provide an updated game editor for an upcoming game? I know there's blades of avernum however it's so old and not receiving any updates. An updated and more friendly game editor would be terrific.

 

 

Thanks.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: NTJedi

Any news on if Spiderweb software plans to provide an updated game editor for an upcoming game? I know there's blades of avernum however it's so old and not receiving any updates. An updated and more friendly game editor would be terrific.

BoA almost put the company under, so a new editor like it is very unlikely.

[Niemand]

Quote:

Any news on if Spiderweb software plans to provide a random game generation for an upcoming game? By random game generation I mean the town locations are random, the quests are random, the monsters(&bosses) are random, the NPCs are random, the events are random, the terrain is random, etc., etc., .

I'm not aware of anything Jeff has said in particular on this topic. I think it's safe to assume that there will be very little of this kind of thing, as it would be a large change from Spiderweb's usual style of game design, and potential a lot more work than their traditional style. It's not too hard to handle tossing in some randomized elements, (like simple random sidequests and random wandering encounters), but allowing for major elements like town locations or bosses to be randomly determined increases the amount of work to code the game or to balance it.

Quote:

Any news on if Spiderweb software plans to provide an updated game editor for an upcoming game? I know there's blades of avernum however it's so old and not receiving any updates. An updated and more friendly game editor would be terrific.

I don't believe that there's anything particularly new to say about this either; in the past Jeff has stated that they do not intend to make another game of this type, and with fairly good reason: it takes a lot of effort to get the game engine and related tools polished up enough to get them to be fit for other people to use. Given that programmer time is a precious resource for Spiderweb (to my knowledge, Jeff is the only employee out of three who does any of the actual coding) producing such a game isn't a great choice for the company.

[Masquerade]

Pity, I was kind of looking forward to a blades of geneforge/avadon/nethergate somewhere down the line, granted nethergate uses the BOA/A3 engine anyway, so it dosn't really count.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Niemand

...it takes a lot of effort to get the game engine and related tools polished up enough to get them to be fit for other people to use. Given that programmer time is a precious resource for Spiderweb (to my knowledge, Jeff is the only employee out of three who does any of the actual coding) producing such a game isn't a great choice for the company.

It doesn't help that Jeff's games have gotten more complicated in some ways and so it takes a whole lot longer to learn how to create and put together a good custom scenario. That certainly makes a new Blades-type game less appealing for customers.

Dikiyoba.

[NTJedi]

Thanks for all the responses... I still check back every so often... praying a new editor or multiplayer feature arrives.

I guess our family with stick with Neverwinter Nights (the original) for RPGs and AgeofWonders: Shadow Magic for the TBS games.

 

I have bought good games in the past with fixed maps and no editors, yet after the 3rd time 95% of the game is predictable. You know where and how to finish all the major bosses, quests, puzzles, forging, etc., etc., for the game which kills replay value. Game editors allow endless replay value.

 

Multiplayer allows families to play together... single player games is nothing a family would vote for doing on a weekend.

 

The other interest is if one of these RPG games could provide a constant living and changing world... new random bosses actively threatening and changing the world towards evil while the player battles them at keeping the world towards good. This could also provide longterm replay value.

 

Let me know if you guys have any good recommendations for the above type of games. Thanks!

[Sullust]

I think what you are looking for is an MMORPG not an RPG.

[Niemand]

It doesn't sound like the RPG would need to be MM[1] and O[2]; merely M[3] would suffice. In particular a game which is both MM and O is unlikely to be modifiable by its players. However, an MMO would take care of the aspect of allowing a family to play as a group, provided they don't mind potentially having to deal with a large number of other players as well.

 

[1]: Massively Multiplayer

[2]: Online

[3]: Multiplayer

I'll confess that this post was mostly an excuse for abbreviations and footnotes. I like abbreviations and footnotes. I'll stop now, though.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Have you read anything by David Foster Wallace? If not, I think you'd enjoy him on a formal level.

[Student of Trinity]

Torchlight somehow manages a surprising amount of coherence within random dungeon design. The main plot isn't random, but most maps are, and the sidequests all seem to be as well. Yet somehow they figured out a good set of rules for assembling random elements, such that most maps lie in a happy valley of seeming complex — often even meaningfully complex, as opposed to senselessly — without being too baffling. You always have a pretty good hunch about where you're supposed to go next. And even when you do see more than one likely way forward, and pick the wrong one, you generally find yourself hitting a fun mini-boss area, or something, so that it's not annoying to clear it out and then backtrack just a bit.

 

After a couple of times through the game you do get familiar with the patterns, to the point where you can pretty much auto-pilot. But the random dungeons in Torchlight stay fun much longer than you'd expect. They're onto something.

[NTJedi]

Torchlight was good, but Din's Curse and it's expansion are better in my opinion. These are more hack n slash which are fine, but I haven't found any RPGs which provide randomly generated maps unless you count Nethack or Moria. I've enjoyed the Baulders Gate and Wizardy RPG's... I guess I'm searching for one of these which can also provide randomly generated games.

[Gerry Quinn]

Daggerfall didn't exactly have a random map, but it had thousands of more or less randomly-generated dungeons, of which you'd expect to see only a fraction. And it had randomly-generated quests in these.

 

I think it's a free download from Bethesda these days.

[Xazo-Tak]

You do realise random quests and NPCs would require an AI to form a conversation? I have no idea how they can get an AI that good. Oh, wait, hold on, here's a thread on how to get one.

[Student of Trinity]

Cleverbot can almost pass the Turing test, if we assume that the human being tested against is severely stoned.

 

This is your AI.

 

This is your AI on drugs.

[Xazo-Tak]

I know that cleverbot is a complete lunatic 99% of the time, but that's because thousands of lunatcs use it every day.

If similar code to cleverbots was used, and only a limited number of people got involved with it (as explained in the thread) it might be able to pass the turing test. If it sees enough useful information being spoken.

[Lilith]

If only a limited number of people got involved with it, it wouldn't learn very much. The sheer amount of information you need in order to be smart is a pretty significant hurdle for AI researchers.

[Sudanna]

I expect my AIs to recognize and deal with lunatics.

[Dantius]

It's obvious Cleverbot is useless. I requested that it define love, and it didn't reply "Love is a perfect shot to the knees usig a high-powered sniper rifle from 120 kilometers", as any self-respecting AI should.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

It's obvious Cleverbot is useless. I requested that it define love, and it didn't reply "Love is a perfect shot to the knees usig a high-powered sniper rifle from 120 kilometers", as any self-respecting Alorael should.

FYT

or are we using FTFY?

Whatever, I changed your post.

[Dintiradan]

I asked Cleverbot "Who are you?", to which it replied "Who am I?" Then I changed gears and asked "What do you want?", to which it replied "I don't want nothing."

 

I don't know if it's being clever or stubborn.

[Karoka]

I asked the same thing, but it replied "I am Josh." Someone please tell me how it knows my name.

[Student of Trinity]

Cleverbot's name is Josh, too. What's hard to understand?

[Karoka]

It first said Jenny.

[Student of Trinity]

That time, it was lying.

[Dantius]

It should be named Caroline.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nalyd

I expect my AIs to recognize and deal with lunatics.

Thankfully, it appears Cleverbot is making headway in that area.

Quote:

Cleverbot: What colour is friday?
iGod: Blue.
Cleverbot: Friday isn't an object, therefore it cannot be a colour.
iGod: Who is an object therefore it can not be a colour?
Cleverbot: Incorrect.
iGod: What would you have said?
Cleverbot: Oh thank you.
iGod: Ugh.

Of course, it did talk to Dikiyoba beforehand, so clearly it hasn't perfected its lunatic avoidance algorithm just yet.

[Dintiradan]

Okay, let's try this with iGod now:

 

Quote:

Me:

Who are you?

God:

I am the Allmighty, God himself.

Me:

Unacceptable answer. I already know your name. Who are you?

God:

Try to determine if this is a person or a computer responding. How do you know? My name is God. I am the Allmighty, God himself.

Me:

If you repeat an unacceptable answer, the penalty will be increased. Who are you?

God:

I think I do. I am the Allmighty, God himself.

Me:

Unacceptable. That is only your title, what other people choose to call you when you choose to hide behind formalities. Who are you?

God:

Tell me a story. It is only one of my title what other people choose to call me when me choose to hide behind formalities. I am the Allmighty, God himself.

Me:

Unacceptable!

God:

Are you really a ""?

 

The answer to the Shadow Question is a bit more direct, though.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Quinn

Daggerfall didn't exactly have a random map, but it had thousands of more or less randomly-generated dungeons, of which you'd expect to see only a fraction. And it had randomly-generated quests in these.

I think it's a free download from Bethesda these days.

Thanks I'm still searching for other RPGs... recently found GuildWars which has high reviews. I'm still crossing my fingers one day spiderweb will create one of its games with a new feature such as:
1) Multiplayer
2) Random Game Generator
3) Game Editor

Each of these would not only increase replay value, but also more sales.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: NTJedi

Thanks I'm still searching for other RPGs... recently found GuildWars which has high reviews. I'm still crossing my fingers one day spiderweb will create one of its games with a new feature such as:
1) Multiplayer
2) Random Game Generator
3) Game Editor

Each of these would not only increase replay value, but also more sales.

It seems from your posts that you're mostly interested in randomly-generated content as a way of adding replay value. One thing to remember about this is that you're actually in a very small minority of gamers for whom replay value matters. Market research shows that the majority of gamers rarely finish games even once, let alone multiple times. One industry insider suggests that up to 80% of regular gamers have never finished a video game.

Personally, I'd prefer to have a game with lovingly handmade and tested content, even if it only holds up to one playthrough, rather than have to deal with whatever content a computer algorithm decides to spit out at me. I'd recommend that you try out Daggerfall, precisely because it's a pretty instructive example of the ways in which random content generation can go horribly wrong.

As far as editors go, remember that Blades of Avernum nearly sent Spiderweb out of business. And as for multiplayer, Spiderweb's market niche is turn-based RPGs, and multiplayer turn-based RPGs seem like they'd be pretty unavoidably clunky. (I guess some browser games like Kingdom of Loathing could very loosely be said to count as multiplayer turn-based RPGs, but the world doesn't really need more browser games.)

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

It seems from your posts that you're mostly interested in randomly-generated content as a way of adding replay value. One thing to remember about this is that you're actually in a very small minority of gamers for whom replay value matters. Market research shows that the majority of gamers rarely finish games even once, let alone multiple times. One industry insider suggests that up to 80% of regular gamers have never finished a video game.

The random generation has many important values beyond whether or not someone even finishes the game. The first is knowing you won't be finding the same item, NPC, town, or boss monster which has been found by everyone else playing the game. There's little glory finding a longsword+2 or solving a riddle knowing several of your friends and/or family have found or solved the exact same thing. Second you can't even brag in any online forums about some great town or quest because it's all old news unless you're one of the hardcore gamers who can play 8+hours. Third once you've won the game you know where to find all the important stuff... sure you can make an alternate decision for a different ending, but the key items, NPCs, places all remain same. It would be like having only hotdogs for the rest of your life... sure you can make an alternate decision of toppings for a different ending taste, but key component remains the same.

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Personally, I'd prefer to have a game with lovingly handmade and tested content, even if it only holds up to one playthrough, rather than have to deal with whatever content a computer algorithm decides to spit out at me. I'd recommend that you try out Daggerfall, precisely because it's a pretty instructive example of the ways in which random content generation can go horribly wrong.

Just because one game does random content generation wrong, doesn't mean future games will also have random content generation wrong. It's merely getting the formula written correctly and working towards improving the formula.

Originally Posted By: Lilith

As far as editors go, remember that Blades of Avernum nearly sent Spiderweb out of business. And as for multiplayer, Spiderweb's market niche is turn-based RPGs, and multiplayer turn-based RPGs seem like they'd be pretty unavoidably clunky. (I guess some browser games like Kingdom of Loathing could very loosely be said to count as multiplayer turn-based RPGs, but the world doesn't really need more browser games.)

Blades of Avernum was released at a point which was in competition with the other spiderweb games, so naturally they were attacking each other sales. There's many RPGs with editors which have been successful, the best example is Neverwinter Nights and all its expansions. An editor is a game feature which if done correctly would only bring more customers... as with any major game feature. On the same note multiplayer is also a major game feature and if done correctly would only bring more customers as well. Based on what I've read from other developers I don't think spiderweb has the knowledge and/or resources for multiplayer, but I do believe it has the knowledge for an editor or random game generation.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: NTJedi

The random generation has many important values beyond whether or not someone even finishes the game. The first is knowing you won't be finding the same item, NPC, town, or boss monster which has been found by everyone else playing the game. There's little glory finding a longsword+2 or solving a riddle knowing several of your friends and/or family have found or solved the exact same thing. Second you can't even brag in any online forums about some great town or quest because it's all old news unless you're one of the hardcore gamers who can play 8+hours.

This is an attitude that's never made sense to me. I like having that ground of common experience to discuss with others. I like being able to talk to other people and knowing that they've played the same game, so that I can go up to them and say "wow, how about that longsword+2 in the bandit fort, huh?" and they can understand what I'm talking about -- or if not, then they've learned something about the game. It's not about bragging, but about having a shared experience: the fact that it's old news is exactly what I like about it. If I'm just exploring some randomly generated world that's totally different from everybody else's randomly generated world, then I no longer have that sense of common ground with other players.

(Incidentally, since you mentioned solving riddles, I'd love to hear how you possibly propose to include randomly-generated riddles in a game.)

Quote:

Third once you've won the game you know where to find all the important stuff... sure you can make an alternate decision for a different ending, but the key items, NPCs, places all remain same. It would be like having only hotdogs for the rest of your life... sure you can make an alternate decision of toppings for a different ending taste, but key component remains the same.

Learning where to find all of the important stuff is one of the things I like to do in games. As for eating hotdogs for the rest of my life, why would I play the same game for the rest of my life in the first place? What I want is to experience everything a game has to offer, and then move on to a different game and do the same thing. As a completionist player, the thing I like most in a game is to be able to say: "I've seen everything there is to see in this game and learned everything there is to know about it, and can now tell others exactly the optimal way to go through the game for best results". Games where I can't do that frustrate me, and I'm not likely to play them in the first place. However many customers Spiderweb might potentially gain by having randomly-generated worlds, it'd lose players like me.

[Randomizer]

Basilisk Games Eschalon is split between containers with fixed items that are usually needed for a quest and randomly generated items. This gives some variation because you never know when you will find a useful weapon, armor, or spell scroll to learn a spell.

 

I did find Book 1 incredibly frustrating as I kept saving and reloading 20 times next to a container with randomly generated items trying to see if I could get a good result. Book 2 had the option of fixing the randomness so I could just concentrate on the game.

[Erebus the Black]

I am with Lilith on this issue.

Now, the best random game generator I've seen is Castle of the Winds. It had randomly generated floors, fight text, items, monsters, shop inventories and had a few key events which always happened on the same floors. So the adventure was different each time while the story remained the same captivating story. Plus it is now common property (if I have the term right) so it's free to download.

[ex post slarto]

"The same captivating story"? Don't get me wrong, Castle of the Winds was a terrific game. But I would hardly say there was anything interesting, let alone captivating, about its very generic story.

 

It's true that randomly-generated dungeons CAN work well. Rogue is arguably the most successful CRPG of all time, and I've spent a good chunk of time playing various incarnations of Angband, as well as games like the aforementioned Castle of the Winds, the Scarab of Ra, etc. But randomly-generated dungeons are really not for every game. They work well in games that have a heavy emphasis on tactics and mechanics. They don't work well in games that have a heavy emphasis on plot, characters, or atmosphere.

 

I also find that the replay value is limited if the game is not designed incredibly well. Since everything has to be level-based (either XP level, or dungeon level) for the game to be playable, you start to see really sharp patterns. So on replay instead of going "oh, here's the part where I search behind the windmill for that sword +2" you go "oh, here's the floor where I start to see +2 swords and blue goblins." It's just as predictable, it's just less specific. If the game is designed well, this can mean a long stream of novel tactical situations. If the game is not, it just makes everything incredibly boring and repetitive.

 

Angband, and some of its variants, do this well because monsters attack in a variety of ways, have many different strengths and weaknesses, and there are a bajillion different monsters. PC classes also have very different strengths and weaknesses, especially in the variants. How long did it take for Angband to reach this level of detail? A good decade of development from multiple developers, sometimes working simultaneously. That is not realistic for a commercial software developer (which Spiderweb Software is).

 

NTJedi, you may be very interested in the Blades of Avernum scenario, "Blades of Rogue."

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: NTJedi

Blades of Avernum was released at a point which was in competition with the other spiderweb games, so naturally they were attacking each other sales. There's many RPGs with editors which have been successful, the best example is Neverwinter Nights and all its expansions. An editor is a game feature which if done correctly would only bring more customers... as with any major game feature. On the same note multiplayer is also a major game feature and if done correctly would only bring more customers as well. Based on what I've read from other developers I don't think spiderweb has the knowledge and/or resources for multiplayer, but I do believe it has the knowledge for an editor or random game generation.

That's not quite a good comparison. NWN was released with an editor. Yes, people liked the editor, but the game also sold for Mac without the editor. Multiplayer helps sell games, but it's not necessary even in genres that have that as an expectation (Torchlight) or necessarily really a selling point (Baldur's Gate). Given the development cycle, BoA competed with other Spiderweb games no more than every other Spiderweb game does.

The real problem is Jeff's tight margins. He could make multiplayer or more editors, but they take time, and they don't make as much money for the time investment as new games.

—Alorael, who likes Angband and other randomly-generated dungeon crawls. He likes plot-driven games. He does not think the two mix very well. Angband and Alpha Centauri are fun because the game is different every time, but Avernum is fun because it's the same and the story ties in with the geography.

[Dantius]

To sort of reiterate what Slarty said, randomly generated games really only work when the vast, vast majority of the game is focused on essentially combat and exploration, like Rogue. I mean, sure Rogue was one of the best, most innovative, and most challenging CRPG's of all time, but it was also made in the freaking 80's! Games have advanced a lot since then, and it has largely been in making a game more like a book, rather than more like a randomly generated board game (think Settlers of Catan). It would be pretty much impossible to make any modern AAA game randomly generated (even Skyrim's supposedly "radiant" system only accunts for like 20% of the total quests, and it accounts for exactly 0% of the interesting ones), and you couldn't even try to make Mass Effect or Dragon Age randomly generated.

 

And moving back to my book analogy, Jeff has always, always fallen heavily on the "book" side of the divide, simply because plot- and character- driven RPG's don't lend themselves to random generation. Even back in the days of yore that was 1993 (1994?) when he released Exile, the game had way, way more talking and exploring towns and world maps than it was combat (or at least ti was for the first couple hours I played it, it might have changed later on). And when you fast forward to his Geneforge games, there were literally over 100,000+ words of text in them, which is more than a small novel! You can't randomly generate that and hope to have it work!

 

So while I guess that, as a game mechanism, random generation would work for games with no characters and only the barest sliver of plots, like Roguelikes or Dwarf Fortress, the rest of the gaming world has long sense moved on, and it would be financial suicide for Jeff to try to recapture a niche that was dead when I was in my 20's, so don't expect Jeff to try them any time soon.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

This is an attitude that's never made sense to me. I like having that ground of common experience to discuss with others. I like being able to talk to other people and knowing that they've played the same game, so that I can go up to them and say "wow, how about that longsword+2 in the bandit fort, huh?" and they can understand what I'm talking about -- or if not, then they've learned something about the game. It's not about bragging, but about having a shared experience: the fact that it's old news is exactly what I like about it. If I'm just exploring some randomly generated world that's totally different from everybody else's randomly generated world, then I no longer have that sense of common ground with other players.

Shared experience?? It's a singleplayer game... if you're looking to enjoy a better shared experience then multiplayer games deliver a thousands times better shared experience. And in regards to "sense of common ground" there's hundred of other related game features such as game spells, game skills, enchanting/forging items, types of monsters, type of shops, etc., etc., . It's not like you're playing one of us is playing Neverwinter and the other playing Elder Scrolls... geeez.

Originally Posted By: Lilith

(Incidentally, since you mentioned solving riddles, I'd love to hear how you possibly propose to include randomly-generated riddles in a game.)

Quests, Riddles, Mysteries and Puzzles would be one of the most difficult challenges. Since computers lack the intelligence to create them these "variables" would have to be created by the developers and even more importantly the community via modding and/or editor. An optional percentage can then be placed into randomly generated games... ideally an optional game setting can mark which have been 'used' recently to prevent it from reappearing in the second, third or fourth game. As with all games the community can organize and compile the best Quests, Riddles, Mysteries and Puzzles. The key is having modding and/or editor which would allow the community to provide gamers with a constant flow of new content thus extending replay value even after spiderweb is absorbed or gone 20 years from now... otherwise if only the developer makes them the game will eventually run dry for this content.

Quote:

Learning where to find all of the important stuff is one of the things I like to do in games. What I want is to experience everything a game has to offer, and then move on to a different game and do the same thing. As a completionist player, the thing I like most in a game is to be able to say: "I've seen everything there is to see in this game and learned everything there is to know about it, and can now tell others exactly the optimal way to go through the game for best results". Games where I can't do that frustrate me, and I'm not likely to play them in the first place. However many customers Spiderweb might potentially gain by having randomly-generated worlds, it'd lose players like me.

The difference is with games like Neverwinter Nights you have endless replay value... sure you can move to a different game if desired, but a new experience\world is always waiting as an option for the gamer to return. I prefer games on my shelf where I can return one day and enjoy a brand new map, NPCs, quests, puzzles, shops, and entire new different world. Games with fixed worlds, NPCs, quests, towns, etc., such as Nethergate are good for maybe two or three games, yet then become worthless. It's why I don't buy games such as Nethergate.
I highly doubt you'd ditch Spiderweb if they released a download tool which provided the option to randomly generate weather, NPCs, monsters and items for a game you've already finished... and that's my point is these are new 'optional' features for increased replay value.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

And moving back to my book analogy, Jeff has always, always fallen heavily on the "book" side of the divide, simply because plot- and character- driven RPG's don't lend themselves to random generation. Even back in the days of yore that was 1993 (1994?) when he released Exile, the game had way, way more talking and exploring towns and world maps than it was combat (or at least ti was for the first couple hours I played it, it might have changed later on). And when you fast forward to his Geneforge games, there were literally over 100,000+ words of text in them, which is more than a small novel! You can't randomly generate that and hope to have it work!

I'm not saying to remove the original game itself and it's 100,000 words of text... I'm saying bring new features to the games. Features such as an editor, friendly modding, multiplayer and random generation would only increase the size of sales and the community. Obviously a task such as multiplayer is beyond the resources/ability of spiderweb yet the others are possible.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: NTJedi

Shared experience?? It's a singleplayer game... if you're looking to enjoy a better shared experience then multiplayer games deliver a thousands times better shared experience.

I'm not talking about that kind of shared experience. I'm talking about the same kind of shared experience that you get from being in a book club. Everyone's reading the same book, but everyone's bringing their own individual experience to it and so experiencing it in different ways. It's that contrast between the same content and the variety of different perspectives on it that interests me the most about a game, which is why a game that presents different content to different players is less interesting to me.

It's like running a scientific experiment, you know? To properly control the experiment, you have to keep every variable the same except one: in this case, the player. That's the best way to learn about both the game and the people who play it. Multiplayer games don't give me that same sense of scientific discovery when I play and discuss them, because the fact that different people are playing together means that their experiences are interfering with each other during play, instead of contributing to their own play and being shared after the fact.

Quote:

The difference is with games like Neverwinter Nights you have endless replay value... sure you can move to a different game if desired, but a new experience\world is always waiting as an option for the gamer to return. I prefer games on my shelf where I can return one day and enjoy a brand new map, NPCs, quests, puzzles, shops, and entire new different world. Games with fixed worlds, NPCs, quests, towns, etc., such as Nethergate are good for maybe two or three games, yet then become worthless. It's why I don't buy games such as Nethergate.

We have different preferences. I don't care very much about replay value. The fact that there's "a new experience always waiting" is a negative for me. If I haven't exhausted all of the game's content, then I don't feel like I've really won, which leaves me feeling frustrated and unsatisfied. I don't play games that promise endless replay value, because I want to play games that end, and for me a game hasn't ended until it contains no more new experiences.

Going after players who place a very high priority on replay value is also a bad business decision in the long run. Why sell one game to someone who will play it 100 times, when you can sell 100 different games to someone who will play each of them once?