Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Redmark. He new he could make his soldiers do all the grunt work while he got to sit back in his castle and take control. Why Dorikas didn't just send assasins to Prazac and risk his capture is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody madrigan Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Refusing to take risks while sending others into danger is not being a good commander. So I suppose I say Dorikas, even though he's an evil maniac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Exposing your strategist to danger instead of necessary but expendable grunts is not being a good commander. Fortunately, neither one of them really does that. —Alorael, who gives the best commander award to General Redmark, who was canny enough to send adventurers after his foe. If Dorikas had thought of that maybe he'd be emperor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Øther Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I dont think that Dorkias is evil, he just very strongly believes that his way is the right way, and in his eyes, he is saving the empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Mordea Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Originally Posted By: Data File —Alorael, who gives the best commander award to General Redmark, who was canny enough to send adventurers after his foe. If Dorikas had thought of that maybe he'd be emperor. Aren't your PCs technically soldiers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Yeah, but aside from a few dialogues and the occasional reminder about how alien Avernum is to you, you're adventurers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Mordea Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Originally Posted By: J.P Diddy Yeah, but aside from a few dialogues and the occasional reminder about how alien Avernum is to you, you're adventurers. Not exactly. You're commissioned Empire soldiers sent out to scout the frontiers for any sign of Dorikas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 You are a band of four warriors or fewer. You are inexperienced and under-equipped, and you are expected to deal with local problems on route, starting from the very first steps you take. You're also soldiers in A2 and A6, but that doesn't change the fact that you are a bunch of adventurers and it's obvious to everyone you meet. —Alorael, who at least assumes it's obvious. Otherwise why would everyone bother you about their desire for 10 widgets or the goblins lurking in the basement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Mordea Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Originally Posted By: Do not spindle —Alorael, who at least assumes it's obvious. Otherwise why would everyone bother you about their desire for 10 widgets or the goblins lurking in the basement? Because people in the underworld will take whatever help they can get. Also note that Redmark didn't choose to send under-experienced hacks. The mayor of New Harston decided for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Redmark couldn't find experienced soldiers and infiltrators who could portray hapless conscripts convincingly? His use of human resources leaves a bit to be desired, then. —Alorael, who isn't sure why the Empire can't see fit to equip you, either. Sure, maybe you need to be setting out with mismatched oddments to get past New Harston, but once you're a few pylons along they should be able to slip you some of the good stuff. Or possibly slowly replace your party with dervishes and powerful wizards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 I think Redmark needed all professional soldiers and spellcasters at Surface fighting against Dorikas troops so he couldn't replace our party with those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Øther Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 If there was a huge war on the surface that required all of the experienced troops, I'm sure something would have been said about that somewhere along your adventure and things would have been a bit harder to come by. (Even though the outpost didn't have much, it would have had less.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I'm sure the surface could have spared four elite soldiers. A3 already shows that the Empire has an infinite number of dervishes and archers. —Alorael, who wonders if every bivouac is a mobile Hilbert Hotel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Mordea Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Originally Posted By: Cro-Mignon Man I'm sure the surface could have spared four elite soldiers. A3 already shows that the Empire has an infinite number of dervishes and archers. —Alorael, who wonders if every bivouac is a mobile Hilbert Hotel. Remember that no other generals apart from Redmark thought that Dorikas was hiding on the Northern Frontier. Resources would have been channeled elsewhere. And there apparently was some conflict on the surface, since Redmark had a bandaged arm. Your point about Redmark sending in elite soldiers pretending to be green conscripts isn't really valid, since there was no way for Redmark to guess that the Mayor would choose your PCs in particular. Of course *we* knew she would, because the game needed a totally contrived reason to justify sending four under-trained and under-supplied soldiers (read: your pcs) through unknown lands in pursuit of a dangerous adversary. Your comment about not getting proper supplies is legitimate. A Blessed Shield and a Flaming Sword does *not* make up for all the BS you are forced to go through. Dorikas allows you to help yourself to everything in his lands for doing far less. Although its common in RPGs for your characters to get jipped, and to have to get a loan of a longsword from the average village idiot. The only games that I know of where you start off with good equipment are Ultima 7 Serpent Isle and Castlevania: SoTN, and they get taken away almost immediately! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Originally Posted By: Mordea Remember that no other generals apart from Redmark thought that Dorikas was hiding on the Northern Frontier. Resources would have been channeled elsewhere. And there apparently was some conflict on the surface, since Redmark had a bandaged arm. The surface conflict, IIRC, was less about the Darkside Loyalists than powerful Imperial generals vying for who would be next Emperor. Really, the only incentive to find Dorikas was because it would help the finder politically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 wow, I have so much to say about this subject that I can't remember it all... so I'll (probly) add edits as I remember stuff (if I remember, got to finish that damn project soon or I will be permanently stuck as a first degree dtudent), so if this really interests you keep checking up First of all, neither of them is a good commander in my eyes, both being *expletive deleted* in the end game. Redmark, allowing a spy to run in his midst without propper investigations although his men keep being way-layed at every point and on every step should have taken matters more seriously if capturing dorikas quickly was so important to him. Having to wait for papers the entire game seems completely stupid, put simply, there is no way for him to know whether his men returned or just jumped ship and decided to become locals (I don't believe anyone would have turned them down in muck). As of such extra papers handy would have been an entirely reasonable thing to have in order to get the proper dervishes enroute with the scout group (especially with a portal service being given for free by the avernites) and to make sure they are alive and still doing their jobs. Not having proper equipment at the beggining is reasonable as Newsome wrecked anything he could put his hands on, and teleporting troops with heavy gear from the surface requires a very large amount of energy and so would probably not be applied to green-hornes that annoyed their commanders and so were sent off to the "penal colony". However that doesn't mean the black-chasm stores shouldn't have improved their wares as time went on, and given their services for a loss to the troops sent on the most vital of missions; even if supplies were not coming in regularly (remeber that commerce goods were being shiped regularly to the surface from there) some high quality equipment should have been put aside for those sentients. And in the end-game when you finally reach the black keep, and you go back to report it to him, if it is so important to the man to kill his arch-nemesis himself he should have offered to join himself (papers or no papers, no one would really have be able to tell if somone snuck in from the portals, it's empire buisness, the avernites wouldn't have interfered just like they didn't with what's her name, especially not with a general; they might send a report to the capital but the circumstances are extenuating). Dorikas is *expletive deleted* right *expletive deleted*, drugging his men in order to achieve better battle effectiveness! Pretending to support other men while all the time vying for the throne himself. Lying to his dervishes so they switch sides and work for him. Sending someone who wishes to join him to kill a dragon (that we got through it by sweet talk and black work is our good luck, had Melanchion not needed help there would have been no other choice but to kill him (other than maybe threatening him that we'll talk like spiders )). One might want to help him but certainly not to allow him to command oneself. Oh, and we didn't get to hear what the message he sent to the avernites through the old man (the pylon erector) was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Øther Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Redmark was looking for the spies, he just hadn't found the last one in the keep yet. You get info that in other outposts the spies were mostly caught and defeated. For the papers, no matter what wars that are going on, this is politics. Everything always takes forever to happen. And in fact, the PCs probably didn't take months to find Dorkias (in game time), so its understandable. Even though Newson did wreck some equipment, there was still some left, and, like you said, there should be shipments from the surface. Even if that place had little to spare, most of their best stuff should go to the people exploring the land, even if it is until they are replaced by better adventurers. Redmark would have wanted to go there himself immediately, but there are many things to consider: He might be afraid of bringing not enough people and quickly being put down, he might fear being brought into an ambush, and he might not have been sure if he had gotten all of the spiues, or that there aren't any new ones. So he would want to get a large group that would have a 100% chance of overcoming the fort. Dorkias didn't activaly encourage scribbane and other things, but it was war and they needed every advantage, so they probably wouldn't put too harsh of a rule against it, as long as most of their people decided not to use it. Of course he pretended to support others. This is politics, and he really wanted to change the empire. You never really need to kill the dragon. You can if you want, but you don't have too. He just wants you to help free an idiot that got caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 this is the worst argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Dorikas and the Loyalists actively smuggled skribbane into Avernum and slipped it into the food supply of all the Avernum bandits and mercenaries they employed. So he wasn't really giving it to his own troops, but that doesn't make it any less awful. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Dorikas and the Loyalists actively smuggled skribbane into Avernum and slipped it into the food supply of all the Avernum bandits and mercenaries they employed. So he wasn't really giving it to his own troops, but that doesn't make it any less awful. Dikiyoba. From Dorikas' viewpoint he was using it on worms, the Avenites, and therefore it wasn't harming the Empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Originally Posted By: Randomizer Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Dorikas and the Loyalists actively smuggled skribbane into Avernum and slipped it into the food supply of all the Avernum bandits and mercenaries they employed. So he wasn't really giving it to his own troops, but that doesn't make it any less awful. Dikiyoba. From Dorikas' viewpoint he was using it on worms, the Avenites, and therefore it wasn't harming the Empire. This still doesn't make him a good commander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Originally Posted By: Other Redmark was looking for the spies, he just hadn't found the last one in the keep yet. You get info that in other outposts the spies were mostly caught and defeated. She wasn't the last one, if you had played the DL ending you'd had seen there were a lot of dark loyalists there. Only the assassins were caught and defeated. Originally Posted By: Other For the papers, no matter what wars that are going on, this is politics. Everything always takes forever to happen. And in fact, the PCs probably didn't take months to find Dorkias (in game time), so its understandable. And yet he should have had a few for backup, and if the crown was really sincere about their intentions of capturing dorikas quickly coupled with the assumption that travelling to the depths of the frontier didn't take very long, traveling to the castle and back should have taken less than that with the castle being closer. Originally Posted By: Other Redmark would have wanted to go there himself immediately, but there are many things to consider: He might be afraid of bringing not enough people and quickly being put down, he might fear being brought into an ambush, and he might not have been sure if he had gotten all of the spiues, or that there aren't any new ones. So he would want to get a large group that would have a 100% chance of overcoming the fort. Then why did he send his men to do the job themselves instead of ordering them to wait in the keep until they could mount a proper offence? Originally Posted By: Other Dorkias didn't activaly encourage scribbane and other things, but it was war and they needed every advantage, so they probably wouldn't put too harsh of a rule against it, as long as most of their people decided not to use it. See dikiyoba's response Originally Posted By: Other Of course he pretended to support others. This is politics, and he really wanted to change the empire. doesn't make him a good commander to serve under Originally Posted By: Other You never really need to kill the dragon. You can if you want, but you don't have too. He just wants you to help free an idiot that got caught. I know that you don't have to kill the dragon, however had he not needed the help you had to fight through the entire keep in order to reach your boat or pylon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Øther Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Originally Posted By: No_More_PLL_Ever She wasn't the last one, if you had played the DL ending you'd had seen there were a lot of dark loyalists there. Only the assassins were caught and defeated. I did do the DL ending. Who said that all those assasins were there the whole time? Originally Posted By: No_More_PLL_Ever And yet he should have had a few for backup, and if the crown was really sincere about their intentions of capturing dorikas quickly coupled with the assumption that travelling to the depths of the frontier didn't take very long, traveling to the castle and back should have taken less than that with the castle being closer. A few backup what? Papers? How would that work? If he had the papers in the beggining, why would soldiers be sent over in the first place to get the papers? And if all he needed was the mayors signature, who says that she wouldn't just rewrite you names down? Originally Posted By: No_More_PLL_Ever Then why did he send his men to do the job themselves instead of ordering them to wait in the keep until they could mount a proper offence? To scout out, maybe. Or just to see how far you could go. He needed to get all the soldiers together, and that would take a little while, so why not send some inexperienced soldiers a bit farther on and see what happens? In the end, what would it matter if around 4 inexperienced soldiers went out a bit early? Originally Posted By: No_More_PLL_Ever See dikiyoba's response See Randomizer's response. I actually don't remember seeing that part. Maybe I skipped over it. It still doesn't change much. He was in war. He needed every advantage, even if it was only temporary. Originally Posted By: No_More_PLL_Ever doesn't make him a good commander to serve under So? They are both commanders who mainly are doing politics, and both just want the throne. It comes down to who is the slightly better one, since you have too choose one to finish the game (with a good ending). Originally Posted By: No_More_PLL_Ever I know that you don't have to kill the dragon, however had he not needed the help you had to fight through the entire keep in order to reach your boat or pylon But you don't have to do that, do you? The game was made so you didn't have to do that, and that doing a few quests would make him let the prisoner go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Mordea Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Originally Posted By: Other Redmark was looking for the spies, he just hadn't found the last one in the keep yet. You get info that in other outposts the spies were mostly caught and defeated. The Dorikas ending mentions that there are many supposedly loyal soldiers at Blackchasm outpost who are actually Darkside loyalists. That's probably why I think Dorikas is the better commander. It was a race for each commander to assassinate the other, and Dorikas was one step ahead. Throughout the entire game he had spies watching Redmark, always ready to strike. Redmark only had a vague idea where Dorikas was located. You need to know where your enemy is before you can kill him! Edit: Dorikas' methods of dealing with the Avernites are also far more effective than those used by Redmark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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