Mordea

Originally Posted By: Svelte Prince Penoir Originally Posted By: Mordea How is this relevant to what the OP has described? Perhaps creations with 0 intelligence repeatedly try to attack after their action points are expended, and one of these attacks is registered when it shouldn't be. Very interesting. I was controlling a rotgroth today, and I was able to attack again with 0 AP. I only managed it once. Yeah, I just tested it in A5 as well, and two characters in a row (mage and priest) got an extra attack despite clearly being at 0 AP (indeed, the game 'stopped' for a second when I was clicking), although this required an hour of playing casually. From this I would conclude that the lag that occurs when switching between characters can occasionally be used to squeeze in another attack. It's a game glitch. Whether the same glitch is occurring for creations you are not directly controlling is a bit uncertain, but it makes sense.

I know that with ranged, controlled creations, occasionally I get an extra attack despite having 0 Action Points remaining. This occurs when I'm clicking frantically on the same target. I suspect that one of these clicks registers after I've used up my APs, but before the computer has had the time to switch to the next character. I've noted that the same thing happens in Avernum 5. It's a bug. How is this relevant to what the OP has described? Perhaps creations with 0 intelligence repeatedly try to attack after their action points are expended, and one of these attacks is registered when it shouldn't be.

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity Charm resistance does not get cranked up on Torment the way health and damage do, at least not as far as I can tell. Thus it continues to work about as well as it does on lower difficulties — unlike pretty near everything else you can do. Of course it could just be that it doesn't get cranked up enough to overcome my huge Spellcraft from DT and singleton XP, so I'm thinking it's staying the same. But the point still stands that, without having to do anything special to focus on charm power, I can charm as well on Torment as on Normal — whereas all my damage spells are proportionately much less effective on Torment, because the monsters are all so much tougher. The result is that on Torment you should be charming not just several times, but many times in most fights. Exactly. From what I have seen, mental resistance does not change between difficulty levels. Strong Daze, Terror and Charm Foe make an impossible game winnable.

Originally Posted By: Svelte Prince Penoir Pylons. I think it's a bunch of baloney that the adventurers who forged across the frontier (building new pylons) wouldn't have been supplied plenty of crystals to attune themselves to the pylons. Rather than send a party of travelers to get whittled down in each new land, why not provide them the means to warp back, refresh, and resupply. I'm referring to the team you meet in Muck. I always thought that it was bs as well. It was just contrived to give an excuse as to why you can't warp anywhere immediately after accessing the first pylon. But funnily enough, there is no need for such an excuse. As the game makes clear, you need to visualise where you wish to be teleported to. You can't visualise a place if you haven't been there yet!

Originally Posted By: Lilith The problem is that once you've spent those first 120 skill points on Bows and Sharpshooter, there's not much else to do with an archer, while a melee fighter can benefit more from peripheral skills like Quick Action, Anatomy and Lethal Blow. I decided to test this in-game by investing 220 skills points in melee, pole and missile respectively Radiant soulblade + assassin's shield = Min: 57, Avg: 108, Max: 207 Heartstriker = Min: 69, Avg: 84, Max: 97 Slith bloodspear = Min: 67, Avg: 108, Max: 182 So it seems you're right. At higher levels, damage output for melee and pole is much higher than that for the bows. Interestingly, damage output for melee users is equivalent to that of the Slith Bloodspear. Those extra points in quick action, anatomy and lethal blow help close the damage die gap.

Originally Posted By: Other Redmark was looking for the spies, he just hadn't found the last one in the keep yet. You get info that in other outposts the spies were mostly caught and defeated. The Dorikas ending mentions that there are many supposedly loyal soldiers at Blackchasm outpost who are actually Darkside loyalists. That's probably why I think Dorikas is the better commander. It was a race for each commander to assassinate the other, and Dorikas was one step ahead. Throughout the entire game he had spies watching Redmark, always ready to strike. Redmark only had a vague idea where Dorikas was located. You need to know where your enemy is before you can kill him! Edit: Dorikas' methods of dealing with the Avernites are also far more effective than those used by Redmark.

Originally Posted By: Cro-Mignon Man I'm sure the surface could have spared four elite soldiers. A3 already shows that the Empire has an infinite number of dervishes and archers. —Alorael, who wonders if every bivouac is a mobile Hilbert Hotel. Remember that no other generals apart from Redmark thought that Dorikas was hiding on the Northern Frontier. Resources would have been channeled elsewhere. And there apparently was some conflict on the surface, since Redmark had a bandaged arm. Your point about Redmark sending in elite soldiers pretending to be green conscripts isn't really valid, since there was no way for Redmark to guess that the Mayor would choose your PCs in particular. Of course *we* knew she would, because the game needed a totally contrived reason to justify sending four under-trained and under-supplied soldiers (read: your pcs) through unknown lands in pursuit of a dangerous adversary. Your comment about not getting proper supplies is legitimate. A Blessed Shield and a Flaming Sword does *not* make up for all the BS you are forced to go through. Dorikas allows you to help yourself to everything in his lands for doing far less. Although its common in RPGs for your characters to get jipped, and to have to get a loan of a longsword from the average village idiot. The only games that I know of where you start off with good equipment are Ultima 7 Serpent Isle and Castlevania: SoTN, and they get taken away almost immediately!

It seems that fatigue removal from equipment and blademaster may be additive. My character who has a BM of 12, the discipline blade (fat. removal = 30%) and warrior's vambraces equipped (fat. removal = 20%) always loses either 2 or 3 fatigue per round. I suspect if my blademaster was higher, I'd always lose 3 a round. If this were so, I could stay battle frenzied indefinitely.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer I used it in Geneforge 5 and Synergy used it in Avernum 6 with great success. It doesn't work as well later in the game with more powerful monsters, but enjoy it while you can. Mage spell minor summon can sometimes get ghasts that do stun damage. There nothing like watching your enemy just stand there and take it without being able to fight back. It works against late game enemies too, such as Empire Dervishes. It usually doesn't work against mini-bosses though, although I can't find what grants them this immunity in the script.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer From my A5 singleton games there were only a few things like unstable masses that are highly resistant to spells and are best attacked by physical damage. Morbo under Muck and a few other are highly resistant to everything, but those are boss encounters where control foes on the boss' summoned monsters is a better tactic than direct attacks. Archery was for spell energy conservation when I wasn't taking more damage than regeneration was replacing or I was almost out and wanted to avoid using an energy potion. I remember tearing my hair out over the Doomguard, tribute Haaki, Altered Giant, Morbo and Ruth. Those are the enemies with whom I resorted to bows, and a presumptive glance at the monsters and objects file suggests that their physical resistances are reasonable low compared to energy/fire/ice. It doesn't help that they have 10,000 hp and/or splitting abilities! I'm inclined to agree with what everyone is saying here, though. Make characters who are predominantly magic users, and invest a little in archery if a bit of a damage boost is needed.

Originally Posted By: Do not spindle —Alorael, who at least assumes it's obvious. Otherwise why would everyone bother you about their desire for 10 widgets or the goblins lurking in the basement? Because people in the underworld will take whatever help they can get. Also note that Redmark didn't choose to send under-experienced hacks. The mayor of New Harston decided for him.

Originally Posted By: J.P Diddy Yeah, but aside from a few dialogues and the occasional reminder about how alien Avernum is to you, you're adventurers. Not exactly. You're commissioned Empire soldiers sent out to scout the frontiers for any sign of Dorikas.

Originally Posted By: Rex Romanum Cryptogrammaticon Yeah, but is that because you encountered one or two enemies and got used to it, and are running a Nephil with the Heartstriker, etc., or because you actually checked methodically and have encountered enemy after enemy with 50%+ resistance to every castable element? Since I was running four casters, it's only natural that I would probe the enemy with each element to determine what their weak point is. I wouldn't invest 200 skill points in magic related skills and then resort to archery for the fun of it.

Originally Posted By: Rex Romanum Cryptogrammaticon The issue is "magic, fire, and/or ice" -- there are almost no enemies that resist all three, and mages have access to all three. A mage with 40 spellcasting skill and no investment in archery should never ever have to resort to archery, except maybe against pylons and the like. But I was resorting to archery. This is from game-play experience.

Originally Posted By: Rex Romanum Cryptogrammaticon What Thuryl may be forgetting -- because I just realized I had forgotten it -- is that melee and archery were balanced very different in A5 than in A6. In A6, melee is stronger due to several mechanics changes (mainly Dual Wielding and better Quick Action value). In A5, melee sucks horribly, while the Heartstriker bow is available early enough to not be irrelevant. Back in the day, I did some theoretical calculations and got similar results to Mordea. Archery's heyday was in A4, really the one game where dedicated archers were viable (if still not optimal) and pumping everyone's archery stats was helpful. In A5, magic damage is clearly the way to go. And in A6, melee damage is king, at least for single targets. In my last game, I played through with an entirely magic using party. As you point out, magic users have the greatest damage potential, and energy isn't really a problem since you can return to town. I rarely ever touched an energy potion. There is also no reason why a priest (or even a mage) cannot function as a tank. When all is said and done, the difference between a well armoured fighter, and a slightly less armoured mage is minor. The only real fly in the ointment was that there were a significant number of monsters (especially demi-bosses) with high resistance to magic, fire, and/or ice. And by late game, everything has at least 80% resistance to acid damage. Physical damage is the most common resistance amongst foes. However, it rarely exceeds 50% (it's usually about 35%). As such, I was using archery on a number of sub-bosses, because the damage output was the same or more than an arcane blow/fireblast when the resistances were factored. This was despite having invested no skill points in archery, yet having about 40 spell strength. So maybe, maybe you could justify the existence of a warrior, if only to deal with those highly resistant opponents. Which raises the question of whether melee, pole, or bows are preferable. Even if the damage output for bows is lower, I'd argue that they offer increased survivability and tactical flexibility that melee/pole does not. I experienced first hand how tactical flexibility can make seemingly impossible battles seem dead easy. In all games except my last one, I had not been able to beat those Sentinels where you receive the experimental blessing. However, with four ranged attacks (ergo. mages) in my party, it was dead easy. Each character was positioned directly next to a sentinel. They then focus fired on each Sentinel in turn. This resulted in the sentinels only attacking in melee, and also evenly distributing the damage across my entire party. I won the battle in no time. Granted, I was using firebolt and smite, but there's no reason why the same concept could not be applied to an archer.

Originally Posted By: Data File —Alorael, who gives the best commander award to General Redmark, who was canny enough to send adventurers after his foe. If Dorikas had thought of that maybe he'd be emperor. Aren't your PCs technically soldiers?

Originally Posted By: Lilith The problem is that once you've spent those first 120 skill points on Bows and Sharpshooter, there's not much else to do with an archer, Parry? Riposte? Quote: while a melee fighter can benefit more from peripheral skills like Quick Action, Anatomy and Lethal Blow. In my simulation, I invested in Quick Action. Not in Anatomy or Lethal Blow, since you couldn't unlock those skills without blowing most (all?) of your skill points. BTW, how many skill points do you feel is reasonable to allocate in such a simulation?

Originally Posted By: Rex Romanum Cryptogrammaticon The other issue is that archery damage ramps up less quickly than any other kind of damage. Its multipliers (x2 and x3) and puny compared to magic multipliers (x3 through x6) and melee/pole multipliers (x2 through x4) benefit hugely from skills like Quick Action. The skills for magic and melee also provide side benefits aside from damage (utility magic, fatigue reduction, encumbrance, etc) which cannot be said for archery skills. I performed a little in game simulation, where I allocated 120 skill points to create an archer, melee warrior, and pole warrior. With the heartstriker bow, I was averaging 69 dmg per hit. With the radiant soulblade, I was averaging 69 dmg per hit. With the slitb bloodspear, I was averaging 77 dmg per hit. Note that I didn't take into account the 'lost' hits from not always being able to make two attacks per round. I only averaged successful strikes. Of course, the simulation is far from perfect. I'm not exactly sure how many skill points you'd have available to invest in battle skills. I also neglected to consider the bonuses for nephil and slith, as well as from trainers and other equipment.

Originally Posted By: Lilith Originally Posted By: Mordea Waiting for sharpshooter doesn't sound plausible. Honestly, I don't see why not. Sharpshooter doesn't do much except slightly increase the damage of your missile weapons. There are better things to spend skill points on. I guess a pure archer might want it early on, but who makes a pure archer in the first place? What's wrong with a pure archer?

Would you wait until the end to purchase Blademaster for warriors?

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity A lot of them are valuable means to the end of getting onwards. And since you don't know where Dorikas is, you're going to have to search around a lot anyway; no harm collecting extra supplies while doing so. But yeah, some things you may need to leave out. But I think you're missing the whole point of the game. You can't pursue Dorikas and remain separate from the Avernites and their troubles, you must get involved in order to achieve your objective. The game is essentially about how the PCs hunt for Dorikas results in their lives becoming 'tied' to the Avernites, for better or worse.

Wow, I really under-estimated this weapon. Two taps per round will stun-lock most enemies, except those who are stun immune or who get two attacks per round. Not bad. Has anyone else had success using the stunning blade early on?

I guess I should clarify. The poll options refer to a character who will eventually aim to invest heavily in that skill (eg. A mage planning to invest heavily in spellcraft/magery, an archer planning to invest heavily in bows/sharpshooter). Originally Posted By: Dantius It's absolutely ridiculous to not train in Mage spells for your mage (or priest spells for your priest) until the Dark River. Even if you end up with a slightly more powerful character? I'm trying to gauge by what degree players are willing to inconvenience themselves in the former portion of the game to enhance power in the latter portion of the game. I suspect that a lot of players would avoid investing in magery before getting those three points from Shanker, and maybe spellcraft. Holding off investing in melee/pole before reaching Tranquility is insane, as is not training in priest/mage spells before the Dark River. Waiting for sharpshooter doesn't sound plausible. Not training in Blademaster until reaching Tholmen at the end might be worth it, since you get oodles of BM from Divine Blood and Elite Warrior.

How much are you willing to inconvenience yourself in order to gain a more powerful character at the end? Ergo. How long are you willing to hold off training in a skill so that you can buy those first three points from a trainer?

Originally Posted By: goblindolf Hello! So I plan to play through avernum 1-6 + blades of avernum and I know the engine changes a lot through the series. 1) For which games do traits really hurt your leveling? I'm not sure about A1-A3, but I do know that in A4 and A5, XP gain is dynamic. Any XP penalty is balanced out by the fact that you're actually gaining more total XP from killing a monster due to your slightly lower level. You'll progress a little more slowly, but at the end of the game when everyone is earning 0 XP, you should be roughly the same level as your other party members. Icewind Dale II had a similar concept in regards to ECL races. Quote: 2) Are bows competitive with melee in any of the games? In A1-A3, bows were vastly inferior to melee. In A4, heartstriker has a damage multiplier that outstrips melee and pole arms. In A5, bows are definitely competitive with melee and pole arms. Their damage die is equal to melee, and only slightly less than pole arms. They don't benefit from quick action, but in return they grant you more tactical opportunities. Quote: 3) Does it ever make sense in any of the games to have a seperate mage and priest, and continue dumping the rest of your points into skills to make those spells better? Or do spells/skill cost scale in such a way that you should make each caster take both? The latter. All skills in Avernum are subject to diminishing returns, as you've already observed. That isn't to say that a jack of all trades character is optimal, but investing 20 skill points to bump your spell damage up by 1% is just silly when you could use those same points to increase bow damage by 20%.