Extremely Disappointed

[joedaddyzzz]

Well, I'm completely stuck trying to kill the prime sentinel and pretty disappointed with the game in general. I understand the need to use the unstable sentinels to beat the prime, but I can't survive long enough with my group. While having a huge set of attributes and skills to develop for each character is great fun, its also a liability of this game.

 

It appears that I have mis-spent my experience points trying to build what I thought would be effective characters. However, I now have an ineffective group that can't dispel barriers, can't read books that I assume are expected to be read by the time you get to Tranquility, can't unlock doors greater than 10, can't cast lightening and other inabilities.

 

If the game requires specific character development/management then the developers should describe that path to successful character development. From the start the player has to know what is required later on and follow a schedule to be successful.

 

If the game is supposed to be a RPG where players decide how to develop their characters, then a method of training to correct for inadequacies has to be made available. A training for money system is okay, if you can continue to gather money. However, in Avernum 5 once you do all the defined quests you have no other way to get money. Even a basic economic system of trade could allow for some ways to generate cash.

 

So at this point I give up. I'm not interested in replaying the game to follow the required character development to move to the next chapter. I just wish I had not invested some much time or money in a wasted adventure.

 

JoeDaddy

[Tarson]

Well, I cant help you with the fight itself haveing not gotten there in my game. But as for the stats being broken, I realy dont think so. 1: you could try lowering the dificutly level. 2: yes it does sound like you could have built your guys better. But there are guides here on the forums. 3: haveing a no magic user in your party isnt that bad if you plan for it. the anama are very good for non-magic partys. 4: the games starts with preset guys that are winnable in. 5: if you needed help in a section you could post on here. Lots of people here would be willing to help you.

Oh and there is no path of perfection.

[Øther]

I alswys have a warrior, who is first in my party and therefore gets the best stuff, a rouge, who is the slightly less effective warrior, but has all of my lockpicking skills, a priest, and a mage. With those, even though I am pretty sure I screwed up my stats on my first runthrough, I beat the game and did just about everything in it. Just make a new party, and try again.

[joedaddyzzz]

My point is that if you need guides or plan better for the future then those should naturally evolve within the game, not off-line. Or corrections should be available some how in game, turning down the difficultly or using cheats makes for a poor gaming experience. I think these games should allow for you to develop and adapt characters for success.

 

If you need to read how to win before you play its not much of a RPG then is it?

 

JoeDaddy

[Tarson]

People beat these games with no guides whatsoever a fair bit. All I was saying was that to get through a hard area or problem you could have asked or looked in one of the guides. Easy is there for people who are begginers in the game. And planning for the future, yes thats what most people do. Its recomended for pretty much all kinds of games. Is it realy too much to spend 2 minutes to figure out what kind of strengths your pcs will have while going through the game?

[Abhishek]

can u give your stats please

[joedaddyzzz]

I can send them this evening. In general its my mage and priest being only level 7 for mage and priest spells. I was more concerned with raising spellcraft, lore, magery and others than the basics. Now I can't cast any of the better spells and get enough XP points to get the levels.

 

JoeDaddy

[Abhishek]

READ MY NEXT POST

NETWORK PROBLEM I THINK I WANTED TO EDIT IT BUT IT WASNT GET EDITING AT THAT TIME

[Abhishek]

I dont know network problem i think

 

 

You said lore

but u cant read books???

u must have good nature lore to make unstable servent friendly

BUT LEVEL 7 ???????

if u dont mind u should go back to check the old area.

i think u missed a lot of things

morever u dont gave any traits so i cant understand it accurately

Still i think u r on lower level than what the game provide.

[Alorael at Large]

I don't think his characters are level 7. He's saying he has only 7 points in Mage and Priest skills. That's definitely a bit of a handicap, but it shouldn't be insurmountable. As long as you're not completely stuck you can gain experience, add tot those skills, and fix the problem. Knowing your exact stats would help.

 

—Alorael, who isn't sure why you object to turning down the difficultly. You're finding the game unfun because your party is so non-optimal that the fights are too difficult. Isn't that what making fights less difficult is for? If you rebalance your party you can always crank the difficulty back up again.

[Abhishek]

The fight in which he is stuck,summon aid (means high mage skill) is more important than spell craft.

I said that he is at low level because he said that he invested in lose but cant read books.

Invested in spell craft but cant dispel barrier or doors whatever he said.

Clearly he invested on his own scale of changing level and not actually on the basis of game level. so i made that statement.

 

Oh dear,why dont you turn down difficulty to easy.

And if you dont wanna start from beginning then i will say that u should cheat.

[joedaddyzzz]

Yes, 7 points of Mage and Priest skills.

 

I think the problem is that I have done nearly all the quests up to this point. Thus, there is no clear path to more XP. So, I believe I have backed myself up into a corner where I can't even use the rewards for the quests I have done, ie no dispel barrier. I plowed all the last XP points I got into arcane lore to read Solberg book, only to find out I'm levels too low to use it. ;(

 

JoeDaddy

[Earth]

best suggestion is restart or edit your team (aka cheat) and avoid same mistakes you've done.

[fractalnavel]

Um, or the obvious, which hasn't been stated: have you been saving as you go along ? If so, you may not need to go all the way back to the beginning. Strategic save/loading is a significant part of games like these, unless you're doing a permadeath run *shudder*.

 

That said, I was playing through on easy using three dedicated archers (never lifted a blade) and an archer/priest (-0- mage) which is decidedly non-optimal even _after_ joining the Anama. Surely there must be some combination of items and tactics that can get you out of Tranquility.

 

edit: and zero lores as well.

[joedaddyzzz]

Fractalnavel

 

Yes, I can go back to before the workshop and maybe a bit earlier. But not 4 or 5 levels ago, which would give me enough point to get the magic levels I at least think I need.

 

How did you dispel barriers without a mage? I burned about half of my crystals on barrier they would not open, so in general that is a pain. I ended up saving before using a crystal to see if it would work, almost cheating there.

 

I seem to limited by where I can get in. I can adapt fighting techniques for my skills, but its the doors and barriers that really limit progress.

 

JoeDaddy

[Alorael at Large]

There are few or no barriers and locked doors you absolutely must pass to win. It won't make the game easier or more fun to skip things, but that's the best thing to do until you have the levels necessary to retool your party into being able to get through them.

 

—Alorael, who isn't sure this will help at all if you're just stuck at the Prime Sentinel. But try turning the difficulty down and getting through the fight. Or cheat! It's a game and it's supposed to be fun. If not cheating isn't fun because you mucked up stats, fix them, consider it a lesson learned, and keep going.

[Øther]

No matter how high my arcane lore was, I was never able to read that book up in Solberg's tower near that pool. Has anyone? Its the one that isn't gaurded, and is in a seperate tower.

[Randomizer]

You only need nature lore of 5 or 6 to turn the unstable sentinels to you side when you damage them enough. Concentrate damage on one at a time until you get them all. Use items like wands for damage and potions for healing. This fight is only hard if you are low on spell energy.

 

Jeff made the game possible to complete the main quests with low tool use and other low abilities in normal difficulty. Having read the books helps get spells but most are buyable about the time that you find the related book.

 

The book up in Solberg's East Tower is unreadable at any arcane lore level.

[fractalnavel]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

You only need nature lore of 5 or 6 to turn the unstable sentinels to you side when you damage them...

Even NL 0 works, but it was tedious; can't remember the details.

Originally Posted By: joedaddyzzz

...I burned about half of my crystals on barrier they would not open, so in general that is a pain. I ended up saving before using a crystal to see if it would work, almost cheating there. ...

I'm less sensitive to "cheating"; like life, whatever's possible is game. Beyond that, it's limitations adopted for other purposes ("morals are the most expensive vice"). So, I save before doing anything irreversible.

As for barriers, I seriously considered de-geasing and eventually adapting my priest into a barrier-dispelling mage, but there are really only a handful that don't respond to crystals - mostly seeming to contain rare crafting materials

But locks - I'm o-c about those, and always get lots of TU.

[madrigan]

I'm pretty sure I don't normally pick up Dispel Barrier until quite a bit later than Tranquility.

 

You don't need optimal builds to win. I come up with character concepts and force my way through the game with them. That said, you should find a way to get both primary spellcasters to level 17 in their casting specialty, and your Tool Use guy to at least 15, and your total Nature Lore about the same. But none of those things are necessary.

 

As a rule of thumb, I don't like my casting level to fall behind my character level.

 

As for making money, you have alternatives to quests. You can sell a huge amount of stuff that you find. If you find you never use stun wands or speed potions, pawn 'em all. It's good to keep some crystals for crafting, but not all the crystals. And there's always theft if you're desperate.

 

Edit: I think the key to the Prime Sentinel fight is keeping your spellcasters, if they are not also warrior types, as far from the battle as possible. I always have a dedicated mage and priest. I move them toward the east and south corners so they don't get hit by the Wave of Heat or whatever it is as much. Have the priest heal (only) and have the mage blast away. It takes time but if you keep your melee guys upright you'll wear the PS down.

 

[Randomizer]

Dispel barrier is a spellbook quest reward from Tiacourna. The next place is Azure Gallery at Highground.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Dispel barrier is a spellbook quest reward from Tiacourna. The next place is Azure Gallery at Highground.

I usually don't complete all of her quests, so I pick it up from Temple.

Which just goes to show, there are usually ways to get stuff you missed the first time.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior

No matter how high my arcane lore was, I was never able to read that book up in Solberg's tower near that pool. Has anyone? Its the one that isn't gaurded, and is in a seperate tower.

if you mean that book which iss at his spyroom then its not readable even at if all have 99 (or what is max game accepts) nature and arcane lore. prolly solberg's notes what he has seen while spying.

[Abhishek]

i tried 164 arcane lore with editor

(editor is capped at 41 for all skill)but still i cant read.

Yes he is talking about that book which you find in eastern tower which u visit for Dionico's quest

[Randomizer]

If you look at the script for that zone, you will see that there is no check for arcane lore or anything else that will allow you to get a message so you can read the book.

[TheTerminator]

Sounds like we got a carebear who wants games to pretty much play themselves.

[Alorael at Large]

Or yet another person who would like the skills to have adequate documentation of what they do. It doesn't help that some are essentially useless and there's no good way to figure it out but experience.

 

—Alorael, who believes Avernum does come close to playing itself in combat (see Jeff's comments on tactical complexity). It's just the setup that requires insight.

[Locmaar]

Originally Posted By: joedaddyzzz

Yes, I can go back to before the workshop and maybe a bit earlier. But not 4 or 5 levels ago, which would give me enough point to get the magic levels I at least think I need.

Joe, if there is one thing I can assure you of, it's that there is no prescribed way to get through the game. As a matter of fact, Jeff encourages beta testers to stumble their way through on a less than optimal build, which some of us usually do. It helps balancing the game for casual gamers. There are, however, a couple of encounters that a casual group will have a hard time winning. But you definietly can make it through the game with an almost tourist-like combo.

If all else fails, follow Alorael's advice and use cheats to break through a frustrating situation.

[TheTerminator]

Well i'll admit i haven't actually played the game. I tried it out and the very dated interface(compared to G5) and the whole "only 4 characters" thing made me go and stop playing. And yes, most of these RPG's do effectively play themselves. But that's more a symptom of turn based combat and the grid based combat. Limits flexibility quite a bit.

[joedaddyzzz]

I guess my point is you can have two basic methods of skills accumulation in the games that I've seen. One via practice and use and another through user assignment. Both have problems, the practice model only allows improvement in skills you use and the assignment method means you must understand what the impact of each skill is.

 

The skills available in Avernum are incredibly robust, but without knowing their importance can lead to bad decisions, and ineffective characters.

 

What I would say is if you use the assignment method documentation is required to generate a useful character. How many cases have you seen on this list where people have plowed points into lore or first aid or luck, only to have people tell them its all wasted?

 

Self assigning XP also allows the player to craft his/her own character, so I think that method is more rewarding. But, in my case it led to a dead end.

 

"Carebear" JoeDaddy.

[Dark.Fenix]

1 thing he is right, there is not monster respawn to farm loot and gold

 

other than that think the game is fine.

[Sss-Chah]

i'm too lazy to read this entire thread right now, but you probably don't actually need to be able to dispel barriers in order to beat the game. i still have yet to play it, but jeff usually doesn't require that stuff in his games. it tends to help, but that's pretty much it.

[Earth]

lake of trials db is needed but doing lot isn't necessary so.... also some loot is accessable only by disabling barrier.

[Randomizer]

All the essential magical barriers are able to be removed with piercing crystals. You miss some nice stuff without dispel barrier, but nothing that prevents you from finishing the game. Synergy's Item List marks which barriers are only dispel barrier and gives you the items that you miss.

 

The documentation isn't great because Jeff recycles about 80 to 90% from the previous game. So some information is out of date and reflects what Jeff thinks is important.

 

For instance First Aid in A1 to A3 really is useless. It only works once per game day per character. You need several levels not to injure instead of heal. Only in A4 and A5 is it automatic at the end of combat and really helps you.

[tata]

I burned about half of my crystals on barrier they would not open, so in general that is a pain. I ended up saving before using a crystal to see if it would work, almost cheating there.

[Abhishek]

Again repeating other's posts?!

Is this a spam account man?

[Alorael at Large]

Yes, it is.

 

—Alorael, who believes it was more obvious before Randomizer diligently excised the offending signature.