Are Geneforge and Avernum related?

[Dunbar42]

Are the worlds of Geneforge and Avernum related? I haven't played the earlier Avernum games (though I plan to give them a try), but it seems there are a lot of connections between the two worlds.

 

I had thought they were related for a while, since they have similar magical spells, many of the creatures look the same between the two games, many of the other graphics look similar (shaping-pad-like areas and such). Much of that could be to make it easier to program, and I understand Avernum underwent a graphics overhaul, which could explain it.

 

However, last night I was talking to the Vahnatai I rescued from under Almaria. He said something very peculiar...I asked if he could locate Rentar (or something to that effect) and he replied that "I am not a Shaper, er, magic user" or something like that. I know he specifically said Shaper. Why would Jeff use that term here unless he is specifically relating it to Geneforge?

 

Does this mean the Vahnatai are what are left of the Shapers, in the future? It could go something like this:

 

Geneforge is headed for all-out war between the shapers and their creations. The shapers, I'm thinking, are defeated. A few of them (enlightened shapers who know the error of their ways) decide to retain their secrets and hide underground. They perform shaping experiments on themselves not to attain power (as they now know where that leads) but only to survive in their new environment. They no longer use shaping powers to create new life.

 

Meanwhile, on the surface, the Drakons revel in their victory. Only they become no better than the Shapers they sought to defeat (already foreshadowed by their treatment of serviles in geneforge 3). Several surviving nations band together to overthrow them. It is during this conflict that the Slithzerikai and Nephalim races are created, probably for use as shock troops and assassins, respectively. The slithzerikai are likely offshoots of the Drakons; the Nephalim may well have been created from the Serviles.

 

In the end, the Drakons and their creations are defeated. And in part, only because a few more enlightened Ur-Drakons turned on their own kind...these survive the wars and become the Dragons. The human peoples that banded together to defeat their Drakon overlords now form The Empire. The nephalim and slithzerikai go into hiding to survive, and are still hunted and persecuted by the Empire generations later.

 

Shaping is now forbidden. All records and traces of how it is done are destroyed and lost. Magic continues to thrive...thus the plethora of new spells above and beyond what the shapers are capable of in the Geneforge series. What little shaping lore remains is transformed into the summoning of creatures to do your bidding. Although, now that I think about it, one of the mages in the Tower Colony asks you to test a new kind of lizard he created. Perhaps that is why they were banished to Avernum in the first place? Some mages, either accidentally or maliciously, started down the path to shaping and so were banished?

 

This could be another reason for the graphics shift for the Avernum series...to better tie it in with the Geneforge games.

[Kingy]

No. Jeff just used the Geneforge engine so it was easier for everything to be the same / similar. The shaper comment was ( I assume) meant to be a joke as you have to use shaper graphics for your character.

[Dikiyoba]

Vahnatai have had Shapers since before Geneforge even existed.

 

Of course, Geneforge and A4 are closely related, because they share a very similar engine. Geneforge and the Avernum Trilogy are not so closely related.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Vahnatai have had Shapers since before Geneforge even existed.
...

Vahnatai creationism? (There is a theory that all life in the world of Avernum was created by the Vahnatai.)

To answer original question of the thread, there is no reasonable way to make a connection between the worlds of Avernum and Geneforge, because Avernum has its own long history with no mention of Shaper-type magic or of any creatures from Geneforge world. Neither does Geneforge have any mention of Avernum-type creatures.

Trying to put Geneforge and Avernum into same world is like trying to put Star Wars and Star Trek into the same universe. There are just as many differencies in history, races, magic, etc. It could be done, but the results wouldn't be appealing to fans of either series.

[Mister Fox]

If I remember correctly, Vahnatai shaping is described in one of the earlier Avernum games (or maybe Exile but not the Avernum counterpart?) I'm thinking it's II. Vahnatai shapers use magic to manipulate minerals more accurately and easily than humans, sliths, or nephils. This is how their waveblades, razordiscs, and cities are created. I may be mistaken though, this should be confimed with someone who has recently played through one of the early Avernum/Exile games and may remember the conversation, or Jeff who knows everything about the Exile/Avernum universe because it continues to grow and thrive within his head as we type.

[Dastal]

Specifically, "Shaping" refers to crystals.

[olop4444]

In A2, a Vahnatai Shaper was a Vahnatai mage.

[Randomizer]

There is the remote possibility that Geneforge is the far distant future of Avernum. The Vahnatai have started in Avernum 3 with creating life to form the monsters they inflicted on the Empire. They are shaping life in addition to minerals (crystals).

 

Although this is a stretch.

[Mister Fox]

Oh yeah the crystals! I forgot about that but I knew it was something. It does seem remotely possible that Geneforge is in the future of Avernum, since you never see more than the cavern system or the continent of Valorim and the Geneforge series takes place on islands thought to be abandoned. But there are no nephils, no sliths, no vahnatai (unless they became human looking and started calling themselves shapers) and all monsters seem to be created by shaping. The worlds seem to be very different though with some possibility of a link, but only Jeff knows if they are in any way connected or not.

[Grain of Salt]

Some really, really big castraphotic event would have to occur to turn Avernum's four continents into the two continents of Geneforge.

 

And how would every species on the surface and below die out, to be replaced with new ones?

 

Maybe there was a Vahnatai nuclear war .

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by I Would Have Been Your Daddy:
Some really, really big castraphotic event would have to occur to turn Avernum's four continents into the two continents of Geneforge.

And how would every species on the surface and below die out, to be replaced with new ones?

The answer is simple. Rakshasi!

Or even better, giant plagues of sea monsters pushed the continents together! And the vahnatai created them!

[Mr.Bookworm]

There are more continents in the Geneforge world than two. It's just that the Shapers RULE two of the continents. Where do you think the Sholai came from?

[Dunbar42]

Thanks for the replies! It seems I was reading a bit too much into a single comment from the Vahnatai. I had no idea that Avernum had been using the term "shaper" long before Geneforge existed.

[Delicious Vlish]

This whole thread makes my Vlishy squishy head hurt.

[Mister Fox]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
This whole thread makes my Vlishy squishy head hurt.

You think that's bad, helium sack? I don't even exist in any of the little spiderweb worlds

[Darkdread]

What I can say is that I love this engine. Playing Exile 1 for example was very difficult for a speaker of English as a second language; it took time to *come up* with the right words Here is easier because the possible questions and phrases are suggested, so thank you Jeff for this engine

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by Marcelo:
What I can say is that I love this engine. Playing Exile 1 for example was very difficult for a speaker of English as a second language; it took time to *come up* with the right words Here is easier because the possible questions and phrases are suggested, so thank you Jeff for this engine

Even with speaking English as a native language, Exile's dialogue was tricky. This is probably one of the reasons JV changed it.

On topic; hopefully the worlds of Ermarian and <INSERT GENEFORGE'S WORLD HERE> will never be merged, but if they are, we'll just have to live with it.

- Archmagus Micael

[Dark Mage]

About that Avernum-Geneforge relation I always like to think that both worlds are the same. Yes, both shapers and the Empire live in Ermaria. Why not?? America was just dicovered in 1492, the humankind spent about 3000 years of history ignoring America...why couldn't this thing happen between the geneforge and avernum continents??

That plot could develop a great game...

[Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas]

Long range scrying.

[Lilith]

The thing about scrying is that you still need to know where to look. As far as I know, there's no evidence that it's possible to scry a wide area just to look around for things that might be there, like new continents.