A4 - Hidden Rooms?

[elgittens]

While doing a 'long' move from Spire to the west, I ran into a hidden room which holds the enchanted pool... this is a huge boon out in the Abyss.

 

So I was wondering if anyone else has come across any other hidden points?

I'm wondering if I missed any along the way to the Abyss!

[*i]

Personally I found the shrine to be pretty worthless by that point. Maybe it was just the way I played, by then I was more than capable of sustaining myself.

 

As for other special hidden rooms...you know, now that I come to think of it, I don't remember any. I suppose if someone wanted to, they could go through the game with high luck and see if any others pop up.

 

Btw, do people know of any other luck related special encounters in A4?

[Randomizer]

I think the Abyss pool is the only hidden one and I went through most of the game around Luck 7. I don't think there are any others and I looked at the maps a lot during the game.

[SevenMass]

To my understanding, the Luck skill does almost nothing in A4.

[Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas]

You uderstand very little.

[Nioca]

There's one encounter in the Great Cave that uses luck. It's a wishing well near bandit territory which grants an extra level of parry for every party member. In order to get it, however, you have to throw in fifty coins repeatedly. Luck reduces the number you have to throw in. That said, I had very low luck, and threw in somewhere around 2000 coins before I got the blessing.

 

It was still cheaper than purchasing it at a trainer, though.

[SevenMass]

Quote:

Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:
You uderstand very little.

Then cure my ignorance and explain, please!
What does the Luck skill do. Not the vague ingame description, what does it do exactly.

[*i]

It helps out in combat giving you increased resistances to everything, gives you higher chances of monsters dropping better items, and a few other random things here and there. So it's pretty good.

[ex post slarto]

In addition to what *i mentioned, Luck affects EVERY roll to-hit or to-dodge by 2% -- melee, missiles and magic alike.

 

I'm not clear if it actually increases your resistances, or just displays that on the status screen. The status screen resistance info is inaccurate anyway (since the resistances are cumulative by multiplication, not addition) and when I tested, I was unable to find any damage taken difference between the same character with 0 and 30 luck. (Maybe that was just armor and not elemental resistances... I did this testing a year ago.)

[SevenMass]

Well, ok, becouse of this discussion I did some tests with luck around Fort Monastary, I found one noticeble thing luck did, 10 luck in every member made my characters move before the goblins do, 0 luck made goblins move before my party. (no investment in DEX. DEX also affects this)

 

But Wouldn't it be beter to invest a few points in dex? Dex unlocks parry anyway.

 

I noticed NO difference in monster drops, in fact, I think monster drops are pre-set, just like items in chests, and on the ground, etc are pre-set.

 

I vaguely remember an earlier discussion about Luck, about how the character screen was lying about the resistances.

[Alorael at Large]

Monster drops aren't entirely random like in Exile, but you can get any of a variety of items from a list or, sometimes, none at all. Luck gives you more stuff and better stuff within the bounds of what your enemies can drop.

 

—Alorael, who had the most luck (pun) seeing the difference while killing Ruby Skeletons and collecting rubies.

[Nioca]

There's Ruby Skeletons in Avernum 4? I never bumped into one.

[SevenMass]

Ok, one last question, (sorry for highjacking this thread) How does luck operates in a party when effecting monster drops, or other things such as this wishing well?

Like Lore? Like Tool-Use? Or does the character with the highest luck needs to do the final blow?

[ex post slarto]

Each creature has a list of things it can drop (though many have an empty list or just one item). For each item on the list, there is a default percentage chance the creature will drop that item when it dies. There is a seperate roll made for each item, so one enemy could always (in theory) drop everything. As far as I can tell, luck affects each of these rolls. I haven't tested it, but an increase of 1% per point of luck (possibly with the 10- and 20-caps we know and love) would make sense, given how drastically luck changes the possibility of a drop, and that this effect is more noticeable with drops that rarely happen without luck.

[Alorael at Large]

No, I think I fabricated the memory of ruby skeletons. Am I totally wrong in remembering some undead thing that drops gems? Mertis Spiral, maybe?

 

—Alorael, who somehow managed to get a certain battle with skeletons on a platform inserted into A4. Maybe it was wishful thinking since there are no A4 platforms.

[SevenMass]

Quote:

Originally written by Slarty:
<snip>

That doesn't answer my question.

Anyway, the creatures around Monastery drop the exact same thing every single time, with our without luck.

Maybe the creatures further away drop more different stuff, But that would take a lot of time testing.

Frankly, unless someone with inside information (Jeff) says otherwise, I think you must be confused with other versions of Avernum (maybe Exile) (I only played A4) The only effect I see from luck so far is my part being able to move a turn before monster turns.

[*i]

Quote:

Anyway, the creatures around Monastery drop the exact same thing every single time, with our without luck.

Read the following:

Quote:

Each creature has a list of things it can drop (though many have an empty list or just one item). For each item on the list, there is a default percentage chance the creature will drop that item when it dies. There is a seperate roll made for each item, so one enemy could always (in theory) drop everything.

This would imply the creatures around Fort Monastery have a 100% drop chance on all of their items. This does not mean there are creatures further out that have different percentages. In fact, I'm pretty sure there are.

[Randomizer]

Actually all you need to do is reach the Nephil Lands to see that monsters don't always drop treasure. Having luck go from 1 to about 5 greatly increases the drop treasure and gives you better items.

 

For more on luck read: luck-1 and luck-2

[SevenMass]

Alright, then I'll test it with the Nephil!

 

Still would like someone to answer my question about how to spread Luck over the party...

[ex post slarto]

I'm not sure anyone has tested that. However, since some of luck's effects are only individual, and it's cheap, you may as well spread some around.

 

My guess would be that it's an individual check, but I'm not sure, as in Geneforge series (same engine) increasing PC luck seems to affect creation-kill drops.

 

You could test it yourself. Give one PC maxxed out luck, have the other one kill things, and see how often they drop compared to PCs with no luck at all.

[SevenMass]

So I run some tests in nephil lands. I used Hawk Kings Monastary-cook-A4-Editor to get myself the XP of a dragon. I invested in mage skills in all party members and saved enough skill-points for 10 ranks in luck, i went to the nephil bridge and saved the game.

 

I killed the nephil on the bridge, the ones near the bridge, and went straight to the checkpoint, then I went to that nephil boss, and to the nephil shrine south of that boss, killing all hostile creatures on my way.

 

I run 10 times with 0 luck and 10 times with 10 luck in all party members. (didn't bother to test different distributions)

 

The results in totals. First nr 0 luck second nr 10 luck:

Leather Armor 69 66

Bronze Shortsword 76 66

Cavewood Bow 52 59

Silver necklaces 11 13

Dagger 01 00

Cloak 24 22

Fine Cloak 03 03

yew bow 09 08

Bronze Broadsword 07 06

Golden necklaces 00 01

 

I don't see anything pure random luck couldn't explain so far. Maybe 10 runs isn't enough? But if it isn't, why did Randomizer say:

 

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:

Having luck go from 1 to about 5 greatly increases the drop treasure and gives you better items.

[Nioca]

That seems backwards. Isn't luck supposed to help?

 

EDIT: Also, I think I remember a few of the Mertis undead dropping emeralds.

[*i]

It's hard to interpret the results with some ideas of the percentages involved. I did notice the number of necklaces (not neckless, which is just sort of gross ) did go up which are ammenities. Of course, more trials would be needed over a larger area to really get the effect.

[Randomizer]

I based my results on using a party of 4 with 1-2 luck per member and singletons with 1 to 4 luck. I found that at higher luck I got more bows dropped and other items. The game seems to use total party luck.

 

I prefer to have a minimum of 1 luck since this seems to trigger getting certain results in the older games where you luck out and don't die.

[ex post slarto]

It's hard to interpret those results since you have mixed in a totally indeterminate number of creatures of various types. Also, a significant number of encounters are activated along your path -- perhaps Luck affects the number of Nephils that appear at some point? It just doesn't sound like a very controlled environment.

 

Anyway, it is a pretty well established fact that Luck *does* affect drop rates. How much is a good question, but if your data shows no change, I question the data's integrity.

[SevenMass]

Sorry about the "neckless" part, I used a spelling-checker on my post, and I didn't bother to double check everything the spelling-checker does.

 

The results are to be interpreted this way: There is nothing in this test that pure random luck couldn't account for.

For the question: "Does the luck skill effect drops?" the test result is inconclusive at best.

 

How can the effect of the luck skill be well established if the effects are so difficult to notice?

 

Wait, what was that? If the date doesn't fit the established the data must be wrong? What data supports the established? The anecdotal evidence Randomizer just came up with, playing a party of 4 with a total of 4 to 8 luck and an undefined number of singletons with 1 to 4 luck?

 

I know my data isn't the highest quality around, to put it lightly. But...

 

Ah, I didn't mean to sound rude!

[Lilith]

I'm with SM here. I've never noticed any effect of Luck on drop rates, and frankly I regard the belief that it does have an effect as mostly superstition.

[Zeviz]

If I remember correctly, in Geneforge series luck has an effect on chances of getting gems, monster parts, and monster-specific items such as clawbug shield. If the effect on loot is similar in A4, you aren't going to see it until you fight many dozens of battles against monsters that have a chance of dropping rare items affected by Luck. (To give you an idea of rarety I am talking about, in Gf games you could play through entire game without getting some of these creature-specific items, and even with high luck you'd only get a couple throughout the game.)

[Nioca]

But, despite similarities, this is not Geneforge. This is Avernum.

 

Now that you mention it, though, I sure got a lot of Graymold off those Rotgroths near Erika's Tower. (I know, they aren't actually Rotgroths. I just can't remember what they're called, and they are strikingly similar to Rotgroths.)

[Delicious Vlish]

With more luck I tend to see more things like silver necklaces and what not dropped by monsters. It has an effect.

[*i]

Shamblers were the ones with the Rotgroth graphic.

 

In Exile, Luck did increase your drop rate. I believe it does in Geneforge too. In A4, it's inconclusive. However, it could apply to things like jewelry and whatnot.

[ex post slarto]

I would be somewhat skeptical that Luck works differently for different kinds of items. It just doesn't fit with the way the engine is put together, with everything possible scripted and as little hardcoding as possible.

 

I would love to see the results of a controlled test such as the following:

- Pick a creature with multiple drops (look in the scripts - basic nephils and goblins might qualify)

- Kill five of them (exact same creature, no variations whatsoever) 10 times each (the same five of them, save and reload) for three scenarios: All PCs with zero luck, three with zero and one (the killer) with 10, and all PCs with 10 luck.

 

I had no idea that Luck affected drops in Exile. That's interesting, actually, given the randomness of the Exile drops.

[Lilith]

If the effects of Luck are more noticeable for rare drops, the Vahnatai Myrmidons that assassinate Houghton might be good for testing purposes. They appear in a convenient group of 3 in an area with no other hostile monsters (so it's easy to keep track of who dropped what), and apparently they have a small chance to drop a Fine Waveblade.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
If the effects of Luck are more noticeable for rare drops, the Vahnatai Myrmidons that assassinate Houghton might be good for testing purposes. They appear in a convenient group of 3 in an area with no other hostile monsters (so it's easy to keep track of who dropped what), and apparently they have a small chance to drop a Fine Waveblade.

Actually, my parties that had the luck boots and higher luck tended to get waveblades from those very Myrmidons to compleat the quest involved with them. In some of my parties I ran through the game neglecting luck for other things, I didn't get anything at all from them.

Other things I noticed. My parties with higher luck scores got more undead dust from killing those powerful skeletons. Lots of jewelry, necklaces, gold rings, etc. More cash too. (As a side effect from selling all those junky little gold rings)

Luck eventually became a skill that I actually spend some points in to just like I do in the Geneforge games, simply because the small effects are noticeable over time. More money means more training, more spells, better weapons, and making life easier in general.

I never really thought about doing detailed tests, I had always assumed that AVIV uses the same luck engine as Geneforge. And you should ALWAYS pump up your luck in Geneforge. Insanely powerful but amazingly subtle skill.

[Lilith]

Without a controlled trial, I'm still not convinced .

[ex post slarto]

Thuryl is right, and that applies to both theories. Somebody do a nice controlled trial, huh?

[Dikiyoba]

Well, I tried to do a test, but there was definitely something else going on.

 

I killed the three nephil guarding the bridge by Fort Monastery, and the four nephil and one nephil archer in the camp that the guards run to for my test. For the first three rounds, it was a party of four with no luck. For the next three rounds, it was a party of four and everyone had 1 luck. For the next round (it was going to be three rounds again, but I got tired), it was a party of four and everyone had 5 luck. I saved and reloaded right in front of the bridge every time.

 

For 6 of the 7 rounds, I got exactly the same thing: 20 coins, 2 leather armors, 2 cavewood bows, and a bronze shortsword. The three nephil guarding the bridge never dropped anything and the archer always dropped a bow and the shortsword. The one round that was different only had 15 coins and 3 cavewood bows, but I believe this was probably my mistake--the coins are easy to overlook and I killed the archer around items that were scattered on the ground. (The different one came from the second round.)

 

So luck had no affect during the test. Neither did walking to different zones and coming back. However, I never did go far enough away to get an autosave. So, basically, I'm left wondering when the drop rate is calculated for the creatures in a given area, because getting the same items (practically) every time is odd.

 

Dikiyoba.

[*i]

Not unless Jeff programmed it that way. I suspect he did in a lot of the early encounters. I think the Myrmadon test would be a little more interesting to try as they have a high variability.