The Lurker

The GF games seem to suggest more than once that the creations you make really are living beings rather than mere essence machines... They're likely capable of feeling pain, sadness, etc. Try talking to the minetender servile in Southforge Citadel (GF4) or Sharm Ki (Icy End, GF3).

I can't play GF5, unfortunately, but I can tell you that in the previous GFs, it was possible to get to the endings as a solo character without too much trouble (especially since you put points into Mechanics and Leadership). However, the expert areas can be extremely difficult without creations (especially GF5's, it seems). And hey, you wouldn't want to waste the points you put into Intelligence, wouldn't you? I'd recommend absorbing that Fyora and making more powerful creations than that if needed (like, say, Drayks). EDIT : Thuryl beat me to it. Don't forget to equip items that increase Stun resistance if needed. I know that in GF4, it was usually possible to take out one Turret at a time (from afar, obviously), and Warriors with enough Missile Weapons skill were powerful enough to take out a Turret in two hits. Dunno if it's still that way.

Mythrael : I thought unstable creations were pretty useless in GF4 too... But after my latest Servile playthrough it simply no longer seems true (although once again, they may not be as efficient as in GF5). Regeneration could keep charged creations fairly stable in GF4 too - of course, they still collapsed as soon as you left the area. Charged Thahds would, sometimes, be useful for quickly taking a tough monster out in Illya Province. Charged Vlish, while expensive, could be useful for Warriors and Shock Troopers due to their slowing ability. Burning Kyshakks seemed to do more damage (especially in long battles) than Wingbolts and even Gazers. Corrupted Rotghroths hit harder than regular Rotghroths, but usually they weren't all that useful. Unstable Firebolts were very, very powerful against enemies with a low fire resistance (like Rotghroths and Rotdhizons). Shock Tralls were the ultimate weapon against Gazers and Eyebeasts. Their stunning ability wasn't all that useful in GF4, due to many bosses being very resistant to Stun.

Five bucks that you're referring to the bound golems that were mentioned in another thread.

I *think* (though Thuryl can correct me if I'm wrong) that AC3 having blank towns could be due to the infamous BoE 100 town bug (towns stop working at 100 and start working again at a number I can't remember). I wonder what is the *longest* BoE scenario. Not biggest, longest. At the Gallows sure takes a long while to complete. (Off-Topic : Speaking of ATG, I wonder if the last fight influenced TM when he made Echoes. Caffen-Bok is very Echoes-ish, and Shatter Essence is simply... I don't think even TM made a scenario with a monster that lowers your stats at random.)

Ohhh, so the "linked" monsters are back in GF5? *browses through GF notes* Ah, so this kind of fight apparently started in GF3 with the Twinspirit Golems (Testing Grounds) and the Spiritlinked Drakons (Monastery Caves). And of course, there were the Soultaken Twins in GF4. Nice to see that Jeff managed to do it with three enemies at once. He seems to be getting better and better at making boss fights.

Originally Posted By: Delicious Vlish There is a lever hidden behind a pillar. In the general area. Down in the bottom right corner of the area. Very difficult to spot. The hidden levers started in GF4, and some of them were very evil. The one in the southeastern corner of the Breeding Pits was hidden behind a wall and seemed to be impossible to spot until you moved your mouse over it. It seems that the hidden levers are Jeff's way to make up for the loss of the ol' Exile/Avernum secret passages. At least the levers don't force you to spend hours walking into every wall square.

Soulflayer wasn't designed as a pure singleton character, unlike, say, Onan the Barbarian. He'd just get blasted by the Drakon form.

I've just replayed the Titan battle a few times for fun and wow, Cryodrayks seem to be really good against it. With Essence Shackles, Wrack, 4 Cryodrayks, and a Reaper Baton, I managed to kill the Titan before it could summon anything. Form 2 (the Ur-Drakon) never even got a chance to attack me, Form 3 (the Artila) only attacked once, and 3 of my Cryodrayks were still alive at the end of the battle (one cryodrayk was killed by the Golem form, although it inflicted a lot of damage before dying, thanks to Spine Shield). I didn't even need to run away to make new creations.

The "spend a lot of skill points into one Shaping category" strategy definetely worked in GF4 too, although apparently not as much as in GF5. Still, a Fyora made with 10 Fire Shaping had about twice as many hit points and three times better stats than a Fyora made with 2 Fire Shaping.

You're really making me wish I had a Mac. I wonder if there could be a legal way to get Mac emulators to work on my computer... Maybe by buying a license or something like that. By "solo character", do you mean a "solo character class" like the Infiltrator, or do you mean a character with no creations? Because Infiltrators and Serviles can have a few powerful creations with them if they want to (this does work in GF5, right? Apparently there are items that help with Shaping).

Great. If even *you* are having trouble, I'm sure it means that it really is going to be hard.

As a Shaper and Agent, I remember the Crypts to be pretty easy (especially the Shaper Crypt, which my Shaper cleared using mostly Vlish). As a Guardian... hmm, can't remember. Gazak-Uss in GF2 is fairly easy too, with the *possible* exception of the Drakon Master. The Sealed Catacombs really aren't too difficult, especially for an expert dungeon, and the Titan isn't all that bad once you figure out the right tactics to deal with each form. The hardest Geneforge game is in my opinion GF3, and that includes the expert dungeons. The Monastery Caves can be difficult if you aren't very well prepared, especially against the Alpha Creator.

Thanks. I've just noticed that I completely forgot to pick up the Omnicharm in the Titan's Hall. Silly me. Oh well, the endgame was easy enough already.

I believe that Vlish simply meant to say that the Servile can easily get the strongest creations, and while his creations might not be every bit as good as, say, a Lifecrafter's or a Sorceress's, it won't make that much of a difference. My GF4 Servile was pretty good at Shaping. I mean, c'mon. A servile who's good at both magic and melee, and who can make Ur-Drakons and Eyebeasts? That *is* freakish. If War Tralls are as good as people say, he may be even more powerful in GF5.

I destroyed Rivergate Keep and Dillame with two Ur-Drakons, for fun and XP. Drosstro was surprisingly tough - why do those cryodrayks head straight for the main character? I used two Gazers for this fight, and lots of mental spells. In retrospect, I might have been better off with 3 Cryodrayks; Drosstro would have been defeated more quickly. But hey, I got the Forbidden Band anyway. I fully explored the Shaper Camp (and destroyed every soldier in it) with two Eyebeasts. The Battle Gamma, Kyshakk, and War Trall can be charmed without *too* much trouble if you keep casting Charm and/or Mass Madness, but the Rotdhizon is insanely powerful and very resistant to mental spells (although I did manage to charm it once or twice, and what happened after that was very fun to watch ). Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that the soldiers still shout an alarm after they're dead? I did the final battle in Northforge Warrens with two Ur-Drakons, and heavily blessed everyone before the battle. I thought I would have to reload and equip more fire-resistant items, but I didn't need to, although I had to use Restoration Potions and Restoration Spores. Mass Madness took care of Alwan's soldiers, and my Ur-Drakons did most of the work after that - their attacks were very effective against Alwan. Just for fun, I reloaded and tried the alternate version of the battle (the one in the Inner Shaping Halls), without enlisting anyone's help (except for Greta, who kept following me). I used three Unstable Firebolts and lots of mental spells. It was even easier than the battle in Northforge Warrens. My endgame stats (these include my currently equipped items - see below): Soulflayer Level : 45 Skill points : 0 Experience : 44401 Health : 352 Spell Energy : 1396 Essence : 700 Strength : 11; Cost 5 Dexterity : 7; Cost 4 Intelligence : 20; Cost 9 Endurance : 7; Cost 5 Melee Weapons : 12; Cost 3 Missile Weapons : 4; Cost 2 Quick Action : 10; Cost 3 Parry : 10; Cost 3 Battle Magic : 10; Cost 4 Mental Magic : 10; Cost 6 Blessing Magic : 9; Cost 5 Spellcraft : 10; Cost 5 Fire Shaping : 5 (I forgot about the Volcanic Fetish at one point in the game and ended up wasting one skill point); Cost 7 Battle Shaping : 4; Cost 5 Magic Shaping : 4; Cost 6 Healing Craft : 3; Cost 4 Leadership : 7; Cost 4 Mechanics : 11; Cost 5 Luck : 3; Cost 2 Armor 91% Fire Resistance 51% Cold Resistance 51% Energy Resistance 48% Stun Resistance 102% Mental Resistance 103% Poison Resistance 65% Acid Resistance 57% Carrying 57 lbs. Encumbered at 69 lbs. Weapon : Puresteel Soulblade. 15-75 Dam; +2 Parry; +1 Quick Action. Enhancement : Stronger Blows. Value : 1250. Weight : 7 lbs. Belt : Girdle of Genius. Prot 6%; +2 Intelligence; +2 Creation Intelligence. Value : 250. Weight : 5 lbs. Armor : Shaper Trueweave. Prot 20%; +2 Creation Strength; +2 Creation Dexterity; +10% Creation Hostile Effect Resistance. Value : 1500. Weight : 2 lbs. Cloak : Agent Cloak. Prot 4%; +1 Battle Magic; +1 Mental Magic; +1 Blessing Magic; +1 to Spellcraft. Value : 500. Weight : 2 lbs. Necklace : Runed Jade Necklace. Prot 4%; +10% Poison Resistance; +10% Acid Resistance; +1 Spellcraft; +10 Creation Poison Resistance; +10% Creation Acid Resistance. Value : 400. Weight : 0.4 lbs. Shield : Stasis Shield. Prot 15%; -10% to hit chance; +40% Stun Resistance; +40% Creation Stun Resistance; +20% Creation Mind Effect Resistance. Value : 1250. Weight : 16 lbs. Gloves : Ornkskin Gauntlets. Prot 6%; +2 Strength; +2 Endurance; +4 melee damage protection. Value : 750. Weight : 6 lbs. Greaves : Legs of the Tyrant. Prot 14%; +8 Vampiric Touch; +5 Melee Weapons. Value : 1250. Weight : 10 lbs. Boots : Shapemaster Boots. Prot 16%; +2 Fire Shaping, +2 Battle Shaping; +2 Magic Shaping; +10% Creation Hostile Effect Resistance. Value : 1250. Weight : 6 lbs. Ring : Ring of Eye's Purity. Prot 6%; +3 Battle Magic; +3% Energy Preservation. Value : 750. Weight : 0.1 lb. Some items I used that are still in my inventory : Tinker's Gloves (Gloves). Prot 2%; +2 Mechanics. Value : 150. Weight : 1 lb. Skein of Wisdom (Charm). +1 Intelligence. Value : 250. Clawbug Charm (Charm). +8% Poison Resistance. Value : 250. Puresteel Charm (Charm). +1 Strength; +1 level damage; +8% Creation Mind Effect Resistance. Value : 625. Cryoa Claw Charm (Charm). +3% Cold Resistance. Value : 250. Shaper Robe (Armor). Prot 12%; +1 Fire Shaping; +1 Battle Shaping; +1 Magic Shaping; +1 Healing Craft. Value : 500. Weight : 5 lbs. Infiltrator Cloak (Cloak). Prot 2%; +1 Leadership; +1 Mechanics; +1 Stealth. Value : 150. Weight : 2 lbs. Infiltrator Shield (Shield). Prot 6; +1 Mechanics; +1 Stealth; +1 Leaderhip. Value : 250. Weight : 10 lbs. Black Pearl Talisman (Necklace). Prot 4%; +1 Battle Shaping; +1 Magic Shaping. Value : 250. Weight : 0.4 lbs. Static Band (Ring). I kept it in case I ran into some very tough mines or pylons. That never happened. Prot 2%; +15% Energy Resistance. Value : 125. Weight : 0.1 lb. Infiltrator Tunic (Armor). Prot 8%; +1 Leadership; +1 Mechanics; +1 Stealth. Value : 150. Weight : 2 lbs. Volcanic Fetish (Necklace). Prot 3%; +1 Battle Magic; +1 Fire Shaping. Value : 250. Weight : 0.4 lb. Infiltrator's Charm (Charm). +1 Leadership; +1 Mechanics; +8% Creation Mind Effect Resistance. Value : 625. Thahdskin Tunic (Armor). Why am still carrying it? Prot 10%; +2 Srength; +1 Dexterity. Value : 100. Weight : 2 lbs. Dhonal's Band (Ring). +2 Melee Weapons; +1 Strength; +1 Leadership. Value : 200. Weight : 0.1 lb. Fyora Fang Charm (Charm). +3% Fire Resistance. Value : 250. Mental Focus Charm (Charm). I have two Mental Focus Charms. +1 Spellcraft; +8% Mind Effect Resistance; +8% Creation Mind Effect Resistance. Value : 625. Essence Charm (Charm). +1 Intelligence; +3% Hostile Effect Resistance; +8% Creation Mind Resistance. Value : 625. Blademaster Charm (Charm). +1 Quick Action; +5% to hit chance; +8% Creation Mind Effect Resistance. Value : 625. Forbidden Band (Ring). +1 Strength; +1 Dexterity; +1 Intelligence; +1 Endurance. Value : 625. Weight : 0.1 lb. Tinker's Bauble (Necklace). Prot 2%; +1 Mechanics. Value : 100. Weight : 0.4 lb. Gruesome Charm (Charm). -2 Endurance; +2 Intelligence; +2 Dexterity. Value : 375. Essence Pods left (not counting the ones in the Inner Shaping Halls, I didn't bother to pick them up) : 27. Overall, Delicious Vlish was right, the Servile really is very powerful. Possibly even more powerful than the Lifecrafter at times. If Mystithus had not been buggy, he would have been the only very tough battle - but even then I could probably have beaten him.

Originally Posted By: Your Famous Blue Raincoat Originally Posted By: The Lurker Derenton Freehold in GF4 could be pretty bad indeed - the fact that many creations could rush you as soon as you entered the hostile Freehold didn't help. GF4 Khyryk, well, I vaguely remember that a direct assault was not recommended either. I'm going to refresh my memory by fighting him with Soulflayer. Derenton wasn't that bad. Just add some endurance to a hasted Thahd to lure things out. When I played as a Shaper Lifecrafter, the difficulty didn't lie in luring creations out, but in keeping them inside. The enemies in Derenton are scripted to focus on your main character as soon as you enter the hostile Freehold (until you distract them, and you cannot distract them by merely having a Thahd move near them). There are a few other areas like this, like the respawning enemies in the Shaper camp, or the Grayghost Gates, or Aziraph Camp Gamma. Sure, you can rush in and attack Litalia while the Freehold is still friendly, but then it's tough to get out alive. Alorael : The first form of the Titan should give you little trouble as long as you destroy the Sentinels before attacking it. The real problem is surviving the attacks of the second one, and taking care of the creatures the third one summons. Rotdhizons can be pretty bad. Overall, I found the Monastery Caves to be harder (then again, I wasn't that good a GF player when I finished GF3, but I remember the three Rots, the respawning rogues, and the Alpha Creator to be pretty nasty).

Thanks again! All of this sounds very neat. Is the expert dungeon as hard as the Monastery from GF3?

Wait. The Bound One as in that demon who was trapped in a golem's body in GF2? How the heck did it manage to come back?

Yes... And it became more and more apparent as I got further into the game. I used two Burning Kyshakks to thoroughly destroy every Pylon in Northforge Warrens. It was uneventful. I take back what I've said about charged creations - sure, using them as meatshields is not recommended, but some of them can get the job done pretty well. I made an Eyebeast to take care of the spawners, reaper turrets, and Wingbolts in the Breeding Pits. At this point, I don't think I even need to mention how ridiculously easy it was - especially since my Servile can cast Aura of Flames too. The Hivetender Vlish were a bit tougher, but still no match for us once we were properly blessed. I can't even exactly remember how I defeated the Corrupted Unbound, but it was completely anticlimactic. I just summoned creatures that dealt magic damage (I think I chose the Burning Kyshakks again), and kept hitting it in melee. And wow, there are three Rotghroth (finally got that friggin' name right!) canisters, which means that rebels can make Corrupted Rotghroths. Makes me wonder why the GF4 hint book doesn't mention the Rot canister in the Breeding Pits. I decided to test my Corrupted Rotghroths against Agent Miranda. Might not have been the best choice, I forgot that she had a spine shield. Oh well. I still managed to charm her creations, so I'll yet you guess how it ended. I made three Unstable Firebolts to help me fight the Rogue Rotdhizon and its helpers. They did extremely well, and my charm spells finished the job. And I got the third Drakon canister. Drakons may not be that good, but Ur-Drakons can be quite useful. I used three Wingbolts to fight the test Unbound. Oh my, was I glad they didn't hit me too often. They sure do a lot of damage. Unfortunately for them, my team and Greta's did a lot of damage very quickly, and the battle didn't last long... as usual. Khyryk... was very easy. You can easily pick off his creations one by one, Khyryk won't even turn hostile. I fought Khyryk with an Ur-Drakon and my enhanced Puresteel Soulblade. The Ur-Drakon took care of the occasional Unstable Firebolts. My charm spells took care of the occasional Shock Tralls. Khyryk himself was a joke, although he did take a while to die. I did hit-and-run attacks on the Western Rise with various creations and abused mental spells as usual. My corrupted Rotghroth killed the Incantor in the eastern building (Incantor Pylo, I believe) in one hit. I destroyed Aziraph Camp Gamma with an Ur-Drakon (which turned out to be a very good choice) and a Gazer. It was a bit harder, since the first soldiers were all headed for me. Still, once I used my creations to distract them and cast a few charm spells... Ah, why do I even bother, you can guess what happened. Guardian Crowley managed to kill my Gazer, but was no match for Soulflayer and the Ur-Drakon. I successfully thrashed the Grayghost Gates, mostly with Cryodrayks. As long as you use the gates or your creations to prevent the Drakons from attacking your main character, it isn't all that hard. Matala is now very dead. I expected the fight to be a lot harder - Matala barely ever got a chance to attack. I first destroyed the Restoration Pylons, then summoned two Burning Kyshakks. I kept Matala slowed and weakened, and hit him repeatedly with my Kyshakks, my own spells, and a few melee attacks. My Burning Kyshakks killed the Decaying Rothgroth in two hits. When Matala fled into the last chamber, I absorbed my Burning Kyshakks who were running low on SP, and made two Burning Kyshakks again. Then I entered the last room. Matala died immediately after activating the Possessed Drakon. That thing hits very hard, but my Kyshakks took care of it fairly quickly. Stay tuned for the last three fights, namely Khima-Uss, the second half of the Shaper Camp (I've already destroyed the first half with hit-and-run attacks), and the final battle against General Alwan. EDIT : Oh, and I made a Mental Focus Charm as planned. I now have two of them in my inventory, since Greta gave me one at the end of Chapter 3.

Derenton Freehold in GF4 could be pretty bad indeed - the fact that many creations could rush you as soon as you entered the hostile Freehold didn't help. GF4 Khyryk, well, I vaguely remember that a direct assault was not recommended either. I'm going to refresh my memory by fighting him with Soulflayer.

Thanks! Your description of Litalia kind of reminds me of the GF4 Litalia (and also Khyryk, to a lesser extent). Neat to see that she's powerful, I found some of the major battles in GF4 to be a bit easy (namely Moseh, Monarch, and the battles in the Inner Shaping Halls).

As in, you know, what are the two hard areas this time? Are they really hard? Who are the hardest bosses? Are there areas where monsters endlessly respawn like in GF4's Western Morass and Shaper Camp? Do you get to fight Ghaldring (I'm willing to bet that yes )? Are the faction bosses like Litalia (presumably) and the Shaper Council actually difficult to beat? How many anvils are there? Is there an Easter Egg boss like the Uberoozebeast? Is there a title screen Easter Egg? There's probably more, but that will be all for now.

Slarty, this is the GF4 forum, remember ? War Tralls are weak against magic, and Gazers and Eyebeasts are literally immune to mental effects (or at least, the ones the player can make - I haven't tested mental spells agaist every single enemy Eyebeast in the game). Latest report: I killed Eye Hertzfelt without any major difficulties. Same old strategy - Gazer and Charm spells. I completed Ssaroyen's quests and killed him and his cryodrayks afterward. At this point I was feeling really bored, so I headed to Northforge and grabbed the Black Key. Since I was tired of using the same strategy over and over, I put a few more points into Shaping so I could have access to the very high-level creations. Maybe it was the best way to spend my skill points, maybe not, but I don't care, I just want to have fun. And so I entered the Sealed Catacombs with an Eyebeast. The 3 "enhanced" Tralls weren't a problem, especially since I managed to charm one of them. The Clawbug Queen was fairly easy, her spawned clawbugs really didn't like my Eyebeast's Aura of Flames spells. I used myself as a meatshield while my Eyebeast was busy toasting everying. She didn't last long. The Wingbolts weren't a problem either, since Eyebeasts are *very* effective against them. The Beta Slavemasters... Well, they did try to kill my poor Eyebeast, but they didn't survive long enough. My Eyebeast's terror touch helped a bit, too. I killed the Rots guarding Eye Mindtaker Fhonge with no problems. Fhonge proved to be very resistant to my Eyebeast's attacks, so I clearly needed something else. I absorbed my Eyebeast, went back to the Aziraph Rebel Camp to rest, then headed back into the Catacombs, and made a Shock Trall. I slowed and weakened the Eyebeast, and my Shock Trall quickly took care of it (as a sidenote, it appears that the "dying" condition of charged creations doesn't matter all that much if you give them Regeneration). Ackrovan is right, Eyebeasts don't like Tralls . I deactivated the spawning platform, then entered the Titan's Hall. Apparently the Northern Sentinel doesn't like being freezed to death by its very own enslaved cryodrayks. Gotta love Mass Madness. Between the cryodrayks, my Shock Trall, and my own hits, the Sentinel died surprisingly quickly (that said, it was still the toughest Sentinel - it sure hits hard). I used Unstable Firebolts to destroy the Exploding Kyshakks south of the Western Sentinel, then summoned two Burning Kyshakks to kill the Western Sentinel. It died VERY quickly. I used an Eyebeast to destroy the Roamers and Reaper Spinecores in the northwest corner. It worked very well. I used a Shock Trall to kill the Northern Sentinel. Yes, I know, magic-based creations like Wingbolts, Burning Kyshakks or Gazers would probably have been a better choice, but this Sentinel is so weak that it doesn't really matter. I summoned 3 spineshielded Ur-Glaahks to take care of the Titan's first form. While the Titan was busy killing itself, I kept hitting it with my own spells, and it shortly switched to its second form. I ran away from it and let it kill my remaining Ur-Glaahks (actually, I can't remember whether one or two were left at this point). Then I made 3 Cryodrayks, and went back into the main room. The Titan summoned 4 Exploding Kyshakks... Which aren't all that hard to charm. I'm really fond of Mass Madness. Between the Kyshakks and the Cryodrayks, the Titan was outmatched - although I'll admit that by the time it switched to its third form, only Soulflayer and one of his Cryodrayks were still alive. Once again, I let kill my Cryodrayk. I had to run away pretty far from the Titan's third form, since this time it was running (or slithering, rather) after me. I once again made 3 spineshielded Ur-Glaahks, and used them to corner the Titan's third form. Since we were fighting in a narrow hall, it only managed to summon one Rotdhizon near us. The other creatures appeared in the main room for some obscure reason. The Titan died, and the Rodhizon severely damaged itself on my Ur-Glaahks' spine shields, so finished it off in melee. I then charmed the two remaining Ur-Glaahks and spineshielded them. I attacked the Rotdhizon with spells while the creations were busy hitting one another. By the time my Charm spell broke, only a very weakened Ur-glaahk and a terrified Rotdhizon remained, and I took care of both with my new Puresteel Soulblade. Then I left the Titan's Hall, and enhanced the Puresteel Soulblade with a Golden Crystal. So what's next? Well, since the Cloak of Shadows and Gloves of Savagery wouldn't be all that useful, I may make at least one more Mental Focus Charm - a few more points in Spellcraft wouldn't hurt. I think I'll do the Breeding Pits next. Then the test Unbounds, the Western Rise, Aziraph Camp Gamma, Matala, the Shaper Camp, and finally the big battle in Northforge Warrens.

I have destroyed the Turabi Gate. It appears that Diamus is, in fact, not immune to mental effects, so I just charmed him and let his (former) allies kill him. Two Aura of Flames spells took care of those pesky submission turrets. I managed to lure Agent Hesione into the eastern building without drawing Tungsten's attention, and killed her without too much trouble. I charmed the surviving Thornflinger to help me against Shaper Tungsten - he actually hit the Shaper pretty hard. Shaper Tungsten summoned two powerful Wingbolts during the fight. Thankfully, I managed to charm one of them. Tungsten died shortly after, and I destroyed the remaining enemies myself. And I beat Thora Eye and his creations, although I had to leave and re-enter the area several times. The battle was easier than as a Lifecrafter, thanks to my mental spells (I so love charming Cryodrayks)... Ackrovan - yup, War Tralls do physical damage from a distance, which is the only good thing about them (along with their big number of hit points). Anyway, I still liked my Gazer better : big amounts of damage, resistant to magical damage, and immunity to mental effects, which helps when fighting Thora Eye.