The Lurker

No clue. The only thing I can tell you is that Sammann's two areas are GF5's expert dungeon, which can be entered from the Okavano Barrier once you have the two keys (I think). Sammann was a rebel Lifecrafter who went crazy after extensively reshaping himself. He's also a pretty tough boss, apparently, with nasty HP regeneration abilities.

Jeff rarely makes final battles difficult. He prefers to make optional challenges instead. Anyway, Sharissa and Nawal should both be fairly easy, especially with Akhari Blaze's help. As for Shema, I hope Jeff didn't make him *too* easy. If you want to see hard battles, try clearing Sammann's two challenge areas.

Why the sad smiley? I'd much rather fight Shema than have him killed during a cutscene.

When you side with Ghaldring, you get to kill all seven Council members. Rawal, Alwan, Astoria, and Taygen are all faction leaders and have to be assassinated separately. Then Ghaldring tells you to go kill the last three members (Nawal, Sharissa, and High Councillor Shema) in their own Council Hall. However, they aren't really doing a "council meeting" when you and Akhari Blaze attack. They're making their last stand.

Agreed. You just can't save both Greta and Astoria and get rid of Rawal, it seems. I've been doing some more browsing... When does Astoria ask you to kill Ghaldring? It would seem that the battle takes place *after* you meet the Shaper Council... So is the Kill Ghaldring quest directly given by the Shaper Council? If so, it appears that you can't read what happens at the meeting merely by browsing the scripts.

Oh. Thanks. That does seem a bit odd. Maybe it's a mistake on Jeff's part. Like, maybe he did last minute changes to the Astoria ending and forgot to edit both versions, or something like that. Having to kill poor Greta to prevent Rawal from becoming High Councillor doesn't really make sense, as far as I can tell.

That's very interesting. Thanks, Thuryl and Stareye. One more question - what exactly happens to Rawal in Astoria's ending? I recall someone saying that he ends up gaining power... Somehow, I'm not surprised that Greta decides to launch a surprise attack against the drakons. She clearly supports Astoria when you meet her in Inner Gazaki-Uss. About ResFool - hmm, is there any similar program for PC users?

So, has anyone made a short summary of the endings yet? If so, I missed it. Anyway, for those who have seen all of them, what's your favorite ending? Judging from the scripts, it looks like Astoria's ending may be the happiest. The Trakovites aren't too bad, but I strongly disagree with Litalia's methods. Releasing the shredbugs? Unleashing a deadly disease onto Sage Taygen's oasis, harming innocents in the process? Not good. Rawal is, um, very mean. I don't know why anyone would want to swear loyalty to him other than for the sake of seeing every ending. Taygen is nuts, but at least he believes he's doing the right thing. Hmm, I wonder if you really die if you get the Taygen ending as a Servile, what with the disease and all. Alwan is naive if he believes he can keep the old Shaper ways without making the same mistakes again, IMO. Ghaldring has gone crazy, it seems. I liked the GF4 Ghaldring much better. "The time of the serviles will never come" really doesn't sound good too me.

Thuryl : If we're thinking of the same quest, I believe you can also use the canisters and tell Litalia you destroyed them if you have enough Leadership skill.

Okay, forget what I said about uploading the scripts, I found a program to extract DMG files on PCs and am currently reading the GF5 scripts. Yay!

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Again, you just leave your creations standing at the docks at the end of G1. You don't absorb them and it doesn't effect any future shaping you do. Oh. I remember that now. Still, it might have taken extra energy to do it - there's undoubtedly a special kind of bond between you and your creations. Maybe you slightly reshaped their brains so they could survive on their own, and even then they might not have been happy about it (just like the Obeyers weren't happy without the Shapers). And maybe you only did it because the Shapers were going to come back to Sucia Island soon and "take care" of all the remaining creations.

Originally Posted By: smeghead You can kill Erika if you have the cooling bands from the bunker. And I thought this item was useless... Thanks! I'll try it next time I replay A3.

Thanks for the clarification, Alorael. I think I might have slightly misunderstood your previous posts, as we seem to agree. The creations made by the PCs are, indeed, unlikely to be able to have a life on their own - I doubt you could just release them by snapping your fingers. In fact, a few creations are completely lost and may suffer from severe mental imbalance once their master is killed.

Really? Is there a way to kill her without dying? In A1, if you kill her image she says something like "Fools! You thought I had no defenses? Prepare for your fate!" and you die. In A2, I believe something happens to the tower if you kill her (I do think you die, but once again I'd have to check). In A3, you automatically try to cross some protective runes after killing her, you're told that Erika cares a lot about privacy, then you die.

Apologies, but, as you know, I'm a PC user, so I wouldn't know about GF5. In the first four GFs, though, Golems really do look like machines, with the exception of the "possessed" ones like Bound One and Matala. Say, would anyone mind packaging the GF5 script files and making them available for download for the PC users? I don't think Jeff would mind, seeing as the GF demos already have every single script file.

Killing Erika gets you killed in every Avernum game, so be careful if you anger her. Although I'll admit that the A3 Erika is a very fun fight, if you're feeling suicidal. About summons : Arcane Summon and Divine Host became more powerful with each Avernum game. They were mediocre in A1 and A2, decent in A3, and can actually be pretty useful in BoA. Rent-an-Ihrno, Arcane Summon can summon more than one monster in A3 and BoA. Not sure about A2, I'll have to check.

Originally Posted By: Mythrael << hopes the birdy gets well Thanks... Unfortunately, he died last night. I guess he was too badly wounded. He was still moving in his box before I fell asleep... When I went to check back on him during the night, he was dead. Hopefully I managed to ease his suffering. Back on topic : First of all, the manuals in GF1, GF2, GF3, GF4, and presumably GF5 clearly state that the creations you make are not without a will of their own. Read the Creations chapter. Other quotes I find interesting : (GF1) begintalknode 3; state = -1; personality = 0; nextstate = -1; condition = get_sdf(41,11) == 0; text1 = "You step into an arena. You have never been in a Shaper arena before. Creation sport combat has been illegal for well over a century. Even if it were not infested with rogues, being here would be very unsettling."; text2 = "Today, Shapers feel some moral responsibility to their creations. This was not always the case. Shapers made creations merely to fight each other for sport. They traded recipes and pitted their pets against each other in bloody combat."; text3 = "Today, creations fight each other only in legitimate wars, or in illegal, underground fighting pits. Places like this exist only in the dark past."; action = SET_SDF 41 11 1; If you could make mindless creations, then other Shapers could do it too, and have only mindless creations fight against each other without any moral problems. (GF2) begintalknode 3; state = -1; nextstate = -1; condition = get_sdf(81,4) == 0; question = "special"; text1 = "This is the laboratory of Akkat, one of the triad of drayks that runs Benerii-Uss. This area is full of holding pens, where fresh, experimental creations are brought for storage."; text2 = "Then, when it comes time to examine them and see if they are improvements over existing designs, they are brought to this room. They are held frozen in place on magical platforms while Akkat and his servile assistants examine them."; text3 = "On one of the platforms, you see a large rotghroth. It is frozen solid. Only its eyes can move. One look at them tells you that this creature is completely rogue. It is furious at its captors."; action = SET_SDF 81 4 1; See how freshly made creations (even fairly dumb ones like Rotghroths) often struggle against their creators? (GF4) begintalknode 115; state = 109; nextstate = 110; condition = 1; question = "Can I send in creations to set off the mines?"; text1 = "Dassa looks disturbed. _That is Shaper thinking. Mines are sometimes set to harm creations, but even when that happens, why would you do something so cruel? Even to a creation that just seems, to you, to be an animal._"; begintalknode 116; // pro shaper state = 110; nextstate = -1; condition = get_flag(3,13) == 0; question = "If the creations I make are animals, how can it be wrong to use them to protect myself?"; text1 = "The servile looks worried. _This is not the first time I have heard such words from a prospective._"; text2 = "The servile looks worried. _This is not the first time I have heard such words from a user of the Geneforge._"; text3 = "_But once you start seeing other living things as so cheap and useless, once you can sacrifice their lives so casually, you are not one of us anymore. That is what I feel._"; action = SET_SDF 3 13 1; code = if (gf(1,4) > 0) rs(1); else rs(2); break; begintalknode 117; // anti shaper state = 110; nextstate = -1; condition = get_flag(3,13) == 0; question = "You are right. I should try to protect the lives of even my simplest creations."; text1 = "The servile nods. _As a creator, you may be owed obedience, but you have a responsibility to your creations as well._"; action = SET_SDF 3 13 1; Self-explanatory, I think. Even if you're pro-shaper, the game forces you to admit that the creations you make are animals. The only difference is that if you're pro-shaper, you see animals as worthless. (More GF4) begintalknode 192; state = -1; nextstate = -1; condition = 1; question = ""; text1 = "This book is called, _The Laws of the Shapers, a Survey._ Most of it is pretty esoteric, but one early section is interesting:"; text2 = "_Shaper law is stern. The rules are many and strictly applied, and the punishments for disobeying are harsh._"; text3 = "_The Shapers claim that their rules are justified by the need to control their power. They claim that, without their efforts, rogue Shapers could do incredible harm. Of course, they use this to justify never sharing their skills._"; text4 = "_Their most fundamental rule is that nobody outside their sect can learn about Shaping. Any outsider, as they call us, who tries to learn about or practice their craft is executed. The rule is harsh and practiced without exception._"; text5 = "_All creations must obey the Shapers totally. Any creation who disobeys is called 'Rogue' and destroyed. Some creation types, like drayks, are Barred. They are always considered to be rogue and destroyed on sight._"; text6 = "_To the Shapers' credit, they have rules restricting how creations can be treated. Gratuitous cruelty is forbidden, as is pitting creations against each other in an arena setting. Of course, these humane rules do not justify their many faults._"; Yet another reference to the anti-arena laws. (Yet more GF4) begintalknode 197; state = -1; nextstate = -1; condition = 1; question = "special"; text1 = "Turrets are strange creatures, part plant, part fungus, part mammal. They are mostly mindless, and notoriously poor conversationalists."; As I said, few creations are "mostly mindless". Only turrets, pylons, golems (who aren't even alive, not counting the ones that hold a spirit inside them) and peculiar experiments are "mostly mindless". Even control creatures (like the ones in Poryphra South Road and Quessa-Uss) can feel pain, irritation, and relief. (GF4) begintalknode 19; state = 11; nextstate = 12; condition = 1; question = "And what crime did you commit?"; text1 = "_Something harsh enough to be punished, but not enough to merit death. There are limits on what we Shapers can do to our creations. And those who exceed those bounds are cast out._"; Heh. I wonder what Uchitelle did... (GF4) begintalknode 1; state = -1; nextstate = -1; condition = get_sdf(52,1) == 0; question = "special"; text1 = "At last, you have reached Shaper Monarch's inner sanctum. This is where he creates his rogues and sends them out into the world. The air around you is full of essence and the hum of raw magical power."; text2 = "And the howling ... you can hear the creations. There are hordes of them, howling with madness as they stumble out toward the light."; text3 = "Their crazed cries echo back and forth through the caves. It is amazing that Shaper Monarch is able to maintain control on them long enough to get them to leave. Normally, rogues like these will attack a Shaper instantly."; Self-explanatory. Shaper Monarch is having a lot of trouble controlling his dumb, freshly made creations. (GF4) begintalknode 52; state = 50; nextstate = -1; condition = gf(50,1) > 0; question = "Smash the baton."; text1 = "For just a moment, Shaper Monarch panics and fails to defend the baton. Though he pretended that it was a cane, you knew that it was much more. You lunge at him and, before he realizes what you are doing, smash the baton."; text2 = "He leaps to his feet and howls. _No! It ... It can't!_ And then he looks around, fully realizing what you have done to him."; text3 = "He hears the screams of the creations, and, finally, he shares the same sick, terrified feeling the people of the Fens of Aziraph have had since he emerged. At last, he knows the sensation of being hunted."; Again, self-explanatory. (GF4) begintalknode 7; state = -1; nextstate = -1; condition = 1; question = "special"; text1 = "The Shapers have left several serviles in this workshop. You suspect that they are technicians, designed and trained to maintain the traps in the fields to the south."; text2 = "You try to speak with them, but they are practically catatonic. You can't get them to register your presence. Then just eat, drink, stare off into space, and wait until it's time to go to work."; text3 = "You knew that the Shapers were taking extreme steps to prevent further rebellion among the creations, but even by current standards these drones are exceptional."; See how rare it is to have a creation that is both mindless and capable of moving?

(Not in the mood for arguing right now, I found a wounded bird in my garden and I'm trying to save him. I'll finish the quotes as soon as the bird issue gets settled. Wish him luck.)

Originally Posted By: Proud Resident of Übersürdistan —Alorael, who views death screens in all Spiderwebs as humorous. They tend to be irreverent. Usually, yes... But one of the GF2 intro pics shows a Fyora watching butterflies with curiosity, and another one shows a Fyora trying to cheer you up while in you're in some kind of cell. "There is a fyora standing on the path ahead. It's a very familiar sort of creation. Shapers have made them for centuries to serve as bodyguards, watchdogs, and even pets. You've been around hundreds of them." - Narrator in Geneforge 1. So don't dis the lil' Fyoras. EDIT : Still copy & pasting, by the way, it takes time to read everything.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer Jeff wanted a rating system to keep children away from the adult content. Mostly it's to help parents who actually pay attention to what their children are looking at while playing. Perhaps it's also in order to warn people who are easily disturbed by... some things... Like not-so-polite words (some scenarios by TM) or gruesome slaughter (Johnny Favourite, Redemption) or pedophilia and squid-like beings that survive by growing inside living beings (Falling Stars).

And usually, people who want to have an actual discussion actually bother reading the story in the games they supposedly like. Still, Alorael has a very good point - I tend to forget that quite a few people don't have every GF game, and not everyone is willing to thoroughly browse through scripts to refresh their memory. I'm going to take a few hours to write down every single thing that genuinely makes me think that the PC's creations aren't machines. Expect my next post before Friday.

I've been reading bits of text from the GF games (again, except for GF5), and really, this thread deserves nothing but an immense facepalm. It's quite obvious that the creations you make are sentient. This thread is like Vahnatai creationism - it might have some potential for fanfictions, but it's literally obvious that it's not the way Jeff sees the Geneforge world. Apparently, the fact that some Essence goes away permanently when you make a creation is due to the fact that 1)you need to maintain a bond between you and your creation; and 2)you need to control it. My guess is that this thread was started because fighting against the Shapers' beliefs while being as horrible as they are is odd. And, in fact, it is. In order to sincerely fight the Shapers, you've got to make sure you never absorb any creations (I believe the GF4 tutorial forces you to make a creation, but you can finish the game without ever absorbing it). So, yes, some Trakovites are hypocrites. Even Drewry.

Wow. Way to completely misunderstand my post. Let me rephrase this : there are very few truly mindless creations around - the Possessed Drakon and Thora Eye's creations, for example, are indeed mindless. But they're not freshly made. Making a creation with no will whatsoever requires far more power than the player will ever have at his/her disposal. Most "mindless" creations are only mindless because a Shaper controls their brain. Again, re-read what happens when, say, you break Monarch's control baton. There's a reason why Shapers have to constantly focus to keep their creations under control.

Originally Posted By: Thuryl In partial support of this, trying to talk to one of the cryodrayks being shaped by the Drakons in the final battle on Ghaldring's path nets you a message along the lines of "This freshly shaped creation stares blankly at you". Do bear in mind that many freshly made creations hardly have their own minds *because they're under the control of a powerful lifecrafter*, like the creations roaming the Barrier Zone. They don't have free will because their will is literally replaced with the lifecrafter's. As soon as the lifecrafter no longer controls them, they tend to prove that they don't like it when they are mistreated (with the odd exception of Greenfang). Oh, and Alorael, going rogue significantly differs from having spasms.

Mythrael : seconded. Also, the fact that your own creations can go rogue proves that they aren't "part of the PC".