alhoon

I don't remember anywhere in the games so far, to actually address that you can't make creations in battle while others can. In fact, the way Shaping is handled in intros and text is that it always takes time so it shouldn't be possible in battle. As for independent shaping... when I was fighting Shapers with "a lot" of creations I was given messages they were tired and low on essence. Shaila in GF4 would be such an example. Even the Monarch has his limits and he's reputed to be the most powerful (or amongst the most) of them all. It's just that the Monarch just releases his creations almost immediately. Other Shapers use those shaping vats that spew enemies to lower the essence cost or something.

Could you elaborate please? If it's not a spoiler for GF3?

Well, it's game balance Issue I think and not that the PC learns different shaping.

To set the record straight about GF4: I was wrong. The Shapers execute you if you go for the low-power Trakovite ending; when you don't really uphold your end of the bargain. In the Shaper ending... you're locked up and tested as Crowly promised you would. At least since I had few cannisters.

I agree that sabotaging isn't the same as betraying. But I was betraying people by earning their trust and then turning against them. Like doing a few quests for every faction only to sabotage them later.

In the weak Unbound trako ending, the rebels lose... In the shaper ending I haven't gone big in cannisters. Just Miranda and Alwan weren't there to vouch for me and I haven't helped much (although I didn't kill the infiltrators!) the shapers (i.e. I broke the barrier; not just Moseh, all of it. Alwan didn't trust me to go with them I never got the quest to go with them from him. Shapers were saying "You're lucky we don't arrest you"). And yeah, I didn't expect them to hug me like a hero. But that's not keeping their promise. Guardian Crowly remembered (I hope) our deal. And the deal was not "do everything" but "find what's going on in the North". In GF5... I betrayed a lot of people. Practically every faction requires you to sabotage the rest. Which includes betrayal. The way I killed Alwan made me feel ... dirty. (I won't say more because of spoilers) So, is there a script command to get rid of a creation without turning it rogue?

He was not far from the truth. I sent Monarch to them to continue his work harming them. As for the backstabbing... I don't know who ordered my execution in the Shaper ending or weak Unbound Trako-ending. On Aziraph he downright tells me that if I fail them again, he will kill me. I had to give them Monarch's papers or else. I really didn't want to. Greta was furious... At the time, I felt I may not get a good rebel ending because of that (and I was right, although in the 'original' ending I went 100-and-destroy-the-machines ending that ends with your execution but the Drakons are brought to heel by the rest of the rebellion). NOTE: I am not proud of everything I've done in GF3, 5 and ESPECIALLY 4. I still feel horrible about absorbing (i.e. murdering in cold blood) my loyal Drayk (sentient creature) cause I wanted to free up essence to make a drakon. I killed something I had with me for a long time, just cause it was convenient. I really wish there was a way to "Release" creations. Even if it was dialogue only in a place. Like "sure, we will take care of him\it for you!" and space empties. Actually, is there a script command for that? Like when the serviles you get with you in GF4 leave, or Greta\Alwan leave in GF3? I haven't made a Drayk, but as heck I don't want to have to absorb it again. Let the Shapers deal with that. (I was never against going Monarch; Crowly was right. I just didn't have the option )

We all know what they would be behind the mask. Changing the whole monster with something else... perhaps.

I totally agree about the lack of evil choices and I have to say that I sent Shaila to the Shapers. Killing her would be cruel. Perhaps I remember it wrong. At the time I was playing after having the Shaper monsters kill half my group of kids, I was very closed against the Shapers. Why I say playing GF games in order may have helped: I had no idea why the Shapers were so hell-bent to destroy me except to jealously protect their power. At the time, I didn't think of my small group of unarmed civilians as "potentional mutant death machines with a good chance to get mad"*. I was thinking of a small group of village kids that found the courage to stand up against an evil mage empire and demand a voice, finding in the geneforge the way to fight back the evil magocracy. Bought the rebel propaganda if you want; believed the bad I was being told about the Shapers and overlooking the good. I will play GF4 again in the future, now that I understand Shapers\Rebels better. But no, at that point (I didn't even know what an Agent was BTW), every Shaper seemed to me the evil mage lackey to the evil archmage. I haven't been deep enough yet into the game to see that there are good Shapers (including Miranda) and bad Rebels (including Garldring and Litalia). If it helps, my first impression of Miranda was the corruptor that wanted to seduce me to evil by promising lies about me being spared. Not the actual patriot that although she disagrees at a level with her bosses, is ready to go to a SUICIDE mission to stop the doomsday device of the enemy. My first impression of Guardian Crowley was the mindless-military-arm of the evil tyrrant, ready to throw babies to the fire if so ordered that actually tries (and fails) to sound better than he is in order to get a spy abomination (according to him) in the enemy camp and win more easily cause he's lazy and hypocritical and wants to go back to abusing serviles and exploiting humans as soon as possible. Not the actual military leader in a bloody civil war that is ready to break some eggs to make omelette if it means stopping the bloodshed. While I changed my opinion about Miranda, and about the time I met Alwan I've known that butt-hole or not, he was a patriot, I still believe Crowly is more of the first (oppressor that was lying to me) than the second. You say Crawley didn't hold it against you for the caravan. I don't believe it. I think Guardian Crawley would be the first offering to chop your head after your usefulness was over. Or would just give you to Moseh to be absorbed (Moseh was absorbing people his creations were bringing to him). While I don't think he was as immoral and hypocrite as Rawal (GF5), he was IMO between that and Alwan. While I disagree with Alwan's opinion and some of his methods he was true to his convictions. * I was so, so, angry when I learned that. I kinda rage-quit cause I've already used 1-2 dumb canisters that really weren't worth moving close to the limit. Then, later I found a "must-have" canister (the ones that improve shaping, I didn't give a dime about spells) and I was over the chapter limit and I was going berserk here and there. All because the rebels didn't bother to warn me.

Yes, I consider "join and betray your allies, or else" to be bullying. And what do you mean the general says nothing of the kind? He is the guy asking me to betray the caravan that carries the geneforge by arranging an attack that would probably kill that nice captain Zakary that had helped me. That's betraying completely the rebellion and at that point everyone I've met was a free servile that didn't want to return to chains or a human fighting against the tyranny of the Shapers. As I said I haven't seen that the other half of the rebellion wanted to put up a tyranny of the Drakons in place of the Shapers. I haven't seen that shapers, power-hoarding and authoritarianism included kept a functioning (if not egalitarian) society. I haven't seen what uncontrolled shaping does till the Monarch.

Yes, they DO bully me in the beginning of GF4. Miranda tells me straight "buddy, join up or you'll die horribly." while captive. A Shaper General that tries to recruit me shows up, his whole army nearby, and tells me in no uncertain terms they will chop me up and dissect me unless I betray the people fighting for the freedom of Serviles and the right of everyone to have access to power (I haven't seen the Drakons yet; nor Unbound. The bad-part of the Rebellion was North). Even near the end, in the hidden Shaper camp, half the shapers tell me that I have no right to exist. When I mention the promise to "just" lock me up forever a Shaper tells me that Shapers aren't bound by promises to creations. Another one says that OK, they would respect their promise ... and ask me to release them from the promise. If I deny, they will declare me a "rogue" creation and kill me. Another Shaper (or a captain, not sure) also says to me "I wouldn't make long term plans in your place". So, a lot of input was that Shapers would not hold their promise to keep me imprisoned forever, while I was seeing how terrible they treat their creations and most were clear they considered me a creation. On the other side were the people that saved me from a Shaper attack, gave me power to fight tyranny (without telling me the cost), were treating serviles as people and considered me "improved" not monster. Really, there was no doubt who I would join. By the time I first see the Drakons (I considered Drayks to be obnoxious) I was too deep. The Unbound at the time seemed necessary for the survival of the rebellion, something we HAD to do. I never believed that they would eradicate all life in Terrestia just that they will turn the odds (and I was right. ). The Shaper ending I got, is that although I didn't have used many cannisters I was executed cause I helped the rebels in the beginning (Miranda and Alwan haven't survived and the finale mentioned that I didn't have any friends with the Shapers). I was mostly a fence-sitter till the final areas. I got my "Rebel" ending by loading and picking the "destroy Unbound" option I didn't play pro-shaper all the way. The rebel ending I got was the Rebels didn't trust me too much because I didn't help enough and held me in the back. The whole game, every Shaper or loyalist was calling me freak and abomination. It was worse than GF5. By the end, I was nearly angry enough with the Shapers to seriously consider unleasing the Unbound. (My original finale was the Trakovite ending with the 100 Unbound that turn the tide but are the last to ever be made).

Nah, don't put numbers. I see them as reincarnations. The most attached I got was with a Bormac Cryora that had earned 6 levels.

It's quite possible in this game. And this from someone that started GF series from GF4 as a Rebel trying to survive a Shaper world that decided he was not to exist hence I come from a very pro-shaper background. All of you started with Geneforge games that put you in the shoes of Shapers. My first 40+ hours of Geneforge, I didn't even have the choice to like the Shapers as they were either bullying me, or fighting me. And the other 40? They were killing my friends and asking me to betray those I had left for the privilege of just locking me up.

I also don't like the floating bags of gas with the weird tentacles. They seem more suited for an exotic zoo than following me. BUT... they're powerful so I endure them.

Watching episode 39. Quality wise... at some points I can't listen you over the ambient sound. I was honored that you mentioned me again in the end of the episode. And I'm a man. Playing a bit of GF3 and these videos make me ache for more. Wow, that eccentric leather tanner that thinks not butchering the animal before you work its leather is like marrying a woman without talking to her has REALLY impressive magic items for sale! I probably have missed that. There were times about that level when I really wished for a bit extra dex (say... when fighting Unbound). You mention you got a cannister for Vlish in Kaz. I haven't found that. Was it in a mechanics only area? Episode 40. I can't imagine what the guards in Kratoa-Kel must be thinking. "There's the creature that was once a rebel and now works for Rawal but killed our captain for Astoria. He's at the gates. Making an army of Vlish, showing his expertise in the shaping arts by... making them more tasty? Does he eat Vlish? Does he eats drakons? " Truth be told, I would be a little suspicious as you often arrive with a much smaller (and tastier) force than you leave with. About fighting the Ghlaak with the Vlish: You did very well in close combat, probably because you increased the strength of the Vlish; I think you could have cleared the town. Perhaps with an expendable Thand or something. About the Borebugs: Truth be told, they are better than the Unbound. They (mostly) damage crops, not completely destroying them. Way worse things have been happening in wars; it was a time honored tradition to destroy crops sometimes even on one's country (scortched earth). As for other evils of the Shapers aside of Serviles that you mentioned, I can think of more: Power-hoarders, too authoritarian, genocidical (on drayks, drakons, gazers), uncaring. While Drakons share part of those qualities the majority of the rebels don't seem to. A good part of the rebellion was against the use of the Unbound and I doubt they know about the bore-bugs either. Your opinion may vary of course. I just make clear (again) my opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to finish Harmony for some time and I will definitely have to take a break after Harmony. A pity, since I love the game. Look how long it took me after Greenwood island to be able to clear up enough time to play GF3 for several hours (I don't like playing 30 mins/day; Either I find a time that I can put consistently 2-3 hours in the game each day or I stay back).

Taygen's not a good ending? Well, if you DO join Taygen, I guess you know EXACTLY what you sign up for, so I guess it would be a good ending. It's the one I haven't done. No worries about the spoilers. I didn't read them. I may have lost non-spoily parts though but that's OK. As for the both choices bad: The main thing I loved in GF was the realization that both sides had good and bad people and that in a war, eventually it comes to the lesser evil choice. It wasn't a clear good vs evil fight or even a Idea A vs Idea B fight. It was a bunch of ideas grouped in two warring sides with people (good and bad) giving allegiance (reluctant or not) to on side or the other. For example the Cryodrayks in GF4 rebel against the Drakons. (Don't give GF5 examples as there are people in this thread that haven't finished the games).

Owenrus: Very interesting take. You are absolutely right about the traitor Shapers in the island (and I have forgot that). When this happened at least Master Hoge was there. He left once my Shaper arrived. The Rebels have a guy posted to wait for Litalia to return. Litalia was there when the whole thing started with the punch. Diwaniya would have been either killed or captured leaving the whole thing defenseless. Seeing it from that perspective, it seems clear that the Shaper was not up to the situation. Not that much because of his own fault, but because the enemy was so much stronger. I don't completely agree with your take on Lankan though. One lapse of control when your whole life is upturned and the guy you serve so he can protect you says "not yet" doesn't make a person tyrranical. However Diwaniya had made the situation worse. OK, he couldn't do much with his creations against two full Shapers. He could be less obnoxious about it and do more to help people. Walk around in town and heal refugees till he was about to drop. Do all in his power to help the alchemists make healing pods and spores. Talk to the people to make them feel more confident even if he didn't feel confident. Token things like sending that old guardian to train a militia, useless more or less except of making people more confident. And seriously, he could whine less. I agree that in light of what you said, Diwaniya has been dealt a very crappy hand. He could try and play it better though and could whine less about it. PS. Hoge waits you to arrive in order to leave. And makes roamers as he leaves. In the end, it comes down to limited choices unfortunately. I wanted an option of saying to Diwaniya "I'll help your pathetic butt, but you WILL work with Lankan and forgive them and you will go out in the town and use your influence to heal the divide between loyalists and Lankan's group." And since No-??? (the warrior next to Diwaniya) tried that and failed, I wanted to do the very same with Lankan: "I -will- help you, but you WILL accept the pardon of Diwaniya, work your charisma to heal the divides and fight for your homes with the loyalists. Deny and you're alone" As for the rest: I didn't real the whole of your discussions since they seem to contain spoilers. I don't know this Khyric or Agatha. But seeing what I saw, I may go Trakovite again as I did in GF4. I also agree that Shapers are bad... but the hardcore Rebels in the islands created all those problems. And had the audacity to inform the rebels of "Hey, we made the monsters that kill you friends so you would be pissed at the Shapers. We won't stop making monsters now that you're pissed. We will just make you stronger so you can defeat them. Let the monsters kill those that trust the shapers" O_O What sort of insanity is this?! In the end, in every GF I went with the choice I felt would be better for the unarmed and the innocent (Which includes serviles, human civilians but also barred creations that just want to be left alone). With what Owenrus said in mind about the impossibility of the situation, mid-way in the second island I would say the rebels are not the best choice.

Bixz, I actually agree with his view point of "I can't make more! What do you want me to do?!" However, the answer to that is: "Get No-whatever, drop a couple of turrets to free up slots and lead your creations to the battle." You know, like my char does. Sure, he's not a Guardian, but he was the only shaper around. Even if he wasn't in the first wave, the morale boost of having a Shaper 10 meters away would help his human soldiers. And he COULD down pods and remake creations that fell. Or heal the humans. And yes, he could also throw a spell. Sitting in his throne and going Moseh (GF4) isn't the answer. Moseh was pinned to the crystal. He could get his butt off the throne and go kill some rogues. Slartibus: Foreign or not (I'm not from USA anyway), his name sounded girly. I didn't do it to demean girls as you may be thinking though. I've played a woman in GF5, I found Greta, Miranda and Astoria to be the best characters in GF games, and Litalia is one of the biggest bad-asses I've found in games (and complicated to the point I can't decide if I hate her or love her). That said, and my respect for the women in GF series declared: Diwaniya is a girly name in my opinion, given to a lame and pathetic Shaper. PS. the worst woman character in the series IMO, is Guardian Malkar's girlfriend in GF5. That does nothing but stammer before he dies, and does nothing but cry after he does.

Well, I thought this would be my first GF game that I would actually at least LEARN to make Rots. I guess I was wrong. I'll go with Drayks\Drakons. Do you get Drakons at some reasonable time, or they're like the last stretch of the game when you have already done most of the dirty work and your beefed up creations can take everything? I still don't know whether I'll go Shaper or Rebel in this one. In this 2nd island, the Shapes are REALLY crappy. Again. Sure, Litalia is her mass murderer self going out of her way to inform the rebels SHE is the source of their plight... but I feel for the people desperate enough to hide in that swamp. And I always hated the Shaper power-hoarding. So, if that pathetic, lame Shaper with the girly name (Di-something) isn't willing to get into the fight himself, to get out of his turret circle and go clean rogues I have no problem giving the canister to the rebels. Yet... If I -can- clean the place myself I'll refrain from going that far against the Shapers.

That other is not IMO more evil than 2 of the faction leaders you mention or Rawal that you didn't (and he has a faction).

Aren't Rots doing poison damage in this game? And when I level up, should I make a terror Vlish to keep to the end (with the +30 essence requirement) or make a normal Vlish and ditch it for a Rot later?

I made two and soon I'll make the third. I won't go more than 3. I want to put a gazer and either a rot or a Drakon in my group at some point.

Found a canister for Vlish. This is the first canister I'll allow my char to keep. Are terror Vlish worth the way greater investment of essence?

To see if you've gone too far... talk with Astoria about joining her. If she says to you "you're too close to the Shapers for me (Shaper councilor) to trust you!" you're too far. Then talk to Alwan. If he says you're too close to the rebels, you're too far. HOWEVER there are NPCs that can change people's perceptions of you. As for the "too much work": It took me roughly 1-2 hours of "replay" for each of the endings since some quests are faction specific. I still haven't done one of the endings as it requires too terrible (for my view) decisions. And no, I'm not talking about Litalia. I did that 3rd.