alhoon

I have no idea how long that would take. Where are the in the remakes?

I would agree. At last we had more than one model for people. And more stuff. Now, if only GForge could be re-released using GF5 graphics and system...

For GF1, I have already taken the graphics mod. I am also slowly working to change some creations (Battle Alphas) to something prettier. Guardians ... seem the same to me from GF3 to GF5.

Meh... if I play the fence, as I usually do, will both of them leave? Or will one of those ungrateful novices stick with me to the end?

TO RETURN BACK TO GF3 IF POSSIBLE: As said earlier, I miss the "?" marks of GF4-5 where they were telling me where is whom. Now I have to wander all over the map to find who I am looking for. Also, the graphics seem a bit... clunkier. But I like the "Mysterious Shaper" (Litalia) that wanders around all powerful and fills the place with rogues. I hear whispers about her, I find reports about her etc. Nobody knows anything... I am still very early in the game as I didn't have much time to play because of social obligations. It takes me a couple of months to finish GF games (if we go by GF4 and GF5 standards). Question: How far can I go with BOTH Alwan and Greta in the party? I like their contribution to discussions.

They did. But they didn't enslave anyone. That was the one victory of the rebellion that validates them morally to a degree in my eyes. Both sides did atrocities, both sides had a few good people, many bad people and countless opportunists. But in the end, the rebellion victorious takes the "good parts" of shaping law (limits to power) and leaves behind the "barred creations should be killed on sight" and breaks the slavery of the serviles. In the end, even the Drakons realize that geneforges give too much power, too fast with very little control. And even Drakons agree to them being destroyed. They did so during the enlightment and industrial age though. A time when not everyone was executed for having different ideas. And still in many cases, abolition did take a war, decades of bloody unrest, revolution or a coup to come into effect.

There's ANOTHER Shaper in Sucia island in GF1? Meh... I didn't know that. We see signs of that from GF4. The Cryodrayks have rebelled. And the PC is tasked with defending them from any Drakon retaliation. Perhaps you can attack them for the Drakons, not sure. In the finalle, the Cryodrayks, in a "show of goodwill" allow Akari Blaze and several Drakon Shapers lead the 100+ Unbound to Western Morass. As if they could stop 100 Unbound... Anyway, I find it perefectly logical and expected that the human\servile side of the Rebellion would turn on Drakons as they were weakened. They haven't been very shy about their plans for the new order. And the way they have alienated the Drayks (and nobody takes Gazers for granted) they were actually alone. With the war ravaging mainly the Shaper provinces instead of the rebel provinces since the creation of the Unbound 4 years pre GF5, the humans of the rebellion (left kinda aside and alone in the east) won't suffer much for war fatigue. So it's entirelly plausible the humans, still with many veterans in their ranks but rested from little fighting, would take action against Drakons. As for the Trakovites: I could wholly and whole-heartedly back a "no more sentient creations" rule. Shaping plants, thands, Fyoras, Kashiiks, etc seems fine to me. Even Battle Alphas seem semi-sentient and they could be allowed.

The Feminists and the Civil Rights movement happened in democracies. In Terrestia, if you claim that shaping is bad and should be stopped, you're executed. You are not allowed to have such thoughts. ANY shaper that showed sympathy pre-rebellion for the creations was expelled. Like Greta was in the start of GF3. Any shaper that showed sympathy for the creations during the rebellion was considered rebel. There was not a peaceful solution possible that would allow the creations to have rights and individuality. And the Rebels under Litalia were not better in that regard in GF4. (Please don't tell me about how they are treated in GF3!) Litalia was hunting down and executing Trakovites in GF4. Greta didn't go out of her way to hunt them, but the rebels were also killing people for their ideas. Rebels were bad too, don't get me wrong. If Ghaldring is about to win, it takes 2nd 2-year-long rebellion to break the drakons.

One thing I find annoying in GF3 after playing 4-5 is that there seems to be no "?" that give me descriptions inside a map. I have to either remember where everyone is, or wander around them map trying to locate them again. I can also say that I don't like the servile and batte alpha graphics, being used to GF4 sprites. I managed to get Serviles like GF4-5 back, but it took time. Now, I have to do it for the Alphas.

As I said above, it's equally disingenuous to put the actions of a few Drakons on all the rebellion. (PS. Monarch was not a shaper, whatever title he was using. Nor was Rawal even if he was in the council. Those two have betrayed the Shaper law and morals so much that calling them shapers is like calling Litalia one in my opinion.) The forefathers of the Unbound? I don't understand. Unbound were created in big vats, growing slowly through months. Greta was a proponent of unleasing the Unbound cause the Rebellion seemed to be lost. And while she urges the player to not back away, she's clearly troubled by what they are doing. In the Trakovite ending, the Greta-side of the rebellion prohibits the Drakons from making more Unbound. In the full-rebel ending, the Drakons ignore the Greta-rebels and make more despite the disagreement of the humans and serviles. Also, the rebels don't hole up in North Citadel. They make forays, take back Illya province etc. They haven't holed up even in GF5 that is 4 years after the GF4. Again, Greta is not a nice person but few leaders in civil wars are.

I don't know how long it took but I don't disagree with you. Nor the Serviles and Greta disagreed with you. They pounced on the Drakons even before the Drakons finished the war. That's why in Ghaldring's ending there is a small part of Terrestia under Shaper control; The humans and servilles attacked before the war was over. Well, Rawal left the battlefield, allowing the others to tire themselves out so he could dominate the empire after the war. And he created the control tools to kill those that displeased him and a geneforge, probably to create his own army of lifecrafters, all with a control tool to be under his thumb. Hardly a responsible use of shaping talents. And it's equally disingenuous to put the actions of a few Drakons on all the rebels. Not even all the Drakons agreed with the creation of the shredbugs. That's why Litalia wanted them out (aside from moving Astoria).

Ghaldring says that before he dies. But yes, Greta is quite clear where things are heading and has warned the player AND Ghaldring that the serviles and humans will rebel again if they feel oppressed. And while Ghaldring's drakons feel themselves superior, they don't treat the serviles as slaves. They treat them bad, but at least they allow them to be free. Yes, Taygen expected it to have some minor effects. And yet, this talented Shaper shaped a disease that did more than what it was meant to do and he paid the price since he lost his consort, the love of his life. So, Taygen lowered himself to biological warfare (despicable on its own, as much as the Shredbugs) and he failed to predict the extend of the damage. Hence that disproves that Shapers are either more moral or more responsible than the Drakons in my eyes. Oh, we don't dispute that. Not even the rebels themselves dispute that (at least in GF4 and GF5 I don't know about GF3 yet). We dispute that the Shapers are the less bad choice or that they are the least wrong and least evil. Indeed. Both true. However, Greta is not as bad as Drakons or Litalia in GF4. Litalia on GF5 takes the cake IMO. What I mean is that Alwan and Greta are both fanatics, both have innocent blood in their hands... and both are not bad considering they're leaders in a civil war. You can't expect them to be actually good people. You can expect them to not unleash diseases or mad killing machines though. Most rebellions in history had revolutionaries and counter-revolutionaries worse than Greta and Alwan. Look at the French revolution for example. And most leaders (I include even minor ones like General crowly etc) in GF4 and GF5 are as bad orworse than Alwan and Greta in my opinion.

While the Drakons have absolutely no excuse for the Shredbugs, and made them ONLY to provoke Astoria to attack the rebels again, hence to destroy her along with the rest, the Unbound are a different story. The Drakons made the Unbound at a time the Rebellion was losing on every front and Drakons knew that if they lost, they would be all be killed for the crime of existing. Rebel soldiers may receive a pardon or hide in the population. Not so for Drakons. Hence, the Unbound was a desperate measure at a Desperate time. In my opinion, the Shapers were worse. They were followed by the Drakons as 2nd-worse. Then we had the more moderate rebels (Greta-minded people led by Greta) that if the Drakons win and try to oppress them, they fight back. These have some atrocities under their belt but they are better than both Shapers and Drakons. These are followed by Alwan's patriotic, non-atrocity commiting shapers. If Alwan wins, he allows some intelligent creations to exist in exile but doesn't allow more of them to be born or created. Again, Alwan-minded shapers have some atrocities in their hands but at least they fight with a sense of honor. And finally, we have the good guys. Astoria's rebels. Astoria is visionary enough to understand that Serviles are allowed to think and even knowing the risks to her life betrays the core shaper philosophy. She does this knowing how bad it will reflect on her but wants to end the devastating war as soon as possible. Even if that means handing the victory to the OTHER side. But, she realizes that Drakons will never allow shapers to exist peacefully so she leads the assault that claims Ghaldring's life.

The Drakons, at least till near the end of the rebellion don't use slaves. And while the Drakons made the Unbound and the Shredbugs ... Taygen made a disease that if unleased kills much of his own people. So you have two ruthless factions that include extremists that prefer to see the world burn than lose to their enemies. BUT... one of these factions doesn't condone slavery and the Drakons are facing extinction just for existing. Hence, they have an excuse for acting as ruthlessly.

Porypha ruins were not hostile, but although I helped the infiltrators, Alwan kept saying to me "You need to prove your loyalty more" till I left for the final trek of the journey.

What? I didn't know that it was possible. I found some info about the Unbound, not really their specifications since Drakons are as bad as the shapers and most info was in Akhari's head but I didn't have the choice to give them.

I assume Hyena means "including items" although I can't be sure (post seemed too spoily. I didn't read it all) As for what a Guardian would spend his money on? Buying a house after the war of course! I always try to end the game with a lot of money, cause money talks. It seemed it was a waste in my GF4 ending though, cause I was executed for sabotaging the machinery and I wasn't considered "pro-rebel" enough. In GF5, my "official" ending, I was hording gems and Jewelry from Drayks and dragons. I ended the game with like 30-40 gems that I never had the time to sell. And the house I had claimed in Penta (to drop things) had lots of items that I didn't need but was "too good" to sell. You know, like aaaaaall those NPCs that tell you "here, have this. I used it years ago and it will serve you better now".

My viewpoint is: Consider the following The government is a cabal of electronics and software engineers. They alone are allowed to know how to write programs and build electronic devices. If you're found knowing how to make even a calculator (program or machine) without having proper brain-washing training, you're executed. But they don't stop there. To be allowed to learn enough so you can act as customer service and perhaps technician that makes simple repairs, you have to get license and you're monitored (people caring for creations or smithing shaped steel). The same scrunity goes for people making capacitors, semiconductors and coils etc. (Outsiders rising batons, mines and living tools). Not only that, although they certainly help with their knowledge, they use their knowledge of electronics and software to be the unquestioned leaders and to keep society under scrunity and control. They tell them about the terrible havoc electronic devices can wrought, how a programmer could unleash a virus on the net to damage all their internet-based machines etc. Through the centuries, they have brain-washed large swaths of society to think that this is the way things should be. Oh, and the government keeps slaves too, of a race they say they modified ages ago using computer programs to pick and choose. They treat them kinda OK while they work unquestionally but kill them without hesitation if they show too much independence. Is knowledge about electronics and software dangerous? Yes. Can in the wrong hands do a lot of harm? Yes. Does this justify a government of technocrats to decide that they alone are responsible enough and should control ANY access to these technologies and research about it? Hell, no! And aside of this power-hoarding... there's the problem of enslaving sentient creatures. Not only serviles, but anything. I can very clearly see why an insurgency may start under such a regime. And with war, nasty things will happen from all sides. Although yes, the rebels are kinda worse. But they fight dirty for the good cause. Why I may go pro-shaper in this one? Cause the end doesn't justify the means! Litalia KILLED students. She could well just have them captured or something!

Whether the serviles were transformed from humans or made out of essence doesn't justify the Shapers enslaving them for eternity. Killing them when they think they get too smart etc. My parents made me. I was literaly shaped in my mother's belly for 9 months. Not only that, but it took me years to be somewhat self-sufficient and my parents were paying for me for even more years. And yet, although my parents labored and suffered for me and my sister a million times more than a shaper about a servile made, they don't ask anything from me but the occasional chore around the house when I visit them and they don't consider me rogue and kill me if I disagree with them.

I met Litalia! She's as insane as I remember her to be, and as arrogant and rebellious as in GF4. Also, having played GF4 I know realize why GF4 made such a fuss about her efforts to smile as a human. Her introduction, after she paralyzes a novice shaper, a novice guardian and a weak fyora, while surrounded by 2 Ghalks, 2 Battle Alphas and a Drayk make certain to intone how her smile is unreal, cold, inhuman. At times, I get frustrated by the whole "carry stuff" thing. But it moments like this that I was looking for. That's a familiar face, acting in a familiar (i.e. crazy) way in an unfamiliar game. Same with Alwan huffing and puffing in obvious disagreement with a shaper many ranks higher than him or a rebel general with a ton of creations, each of which could kill us all. Litalia's madness display made me feel like I just opened the door and stepped home. Despite the bullying from her. OK, it's also worth it for the semi-religious reverance I got from servilles, the servant mind and a coward guard I found in the academy. "Master shaper" and all, while I'm a novice. Question: Do we get lines of "reputation with rebels increased" or something after quests and dialogues? I want to know where I stand...

How far on GF3? I have only be able to play for... an hour or so. Just mid-clearing the academy, the zone after the tutorial. I found Alwan and he seems very much like an inexperienced Alwan to be sincere. He's not powerful as in GF4 nor influential as GF5 so he seethes with rage cause he's as much fanatic as in those games. I haven't found Greta yet. I found the teacher, Hoge, and I think he's not just a coward shaper, I think he's rebel. I think my professor (shaper class), that probably had taught me for years, that my char was so in awe of, that could tell my char by a look proving familiarity... collaborated with rebels to bring in monsters to kill nearly defenseless teenagers he spent years training. I had the option to attack him, and I had a fyora and Alwan with me. But seriously, I don't know if we could deal with the battle alpha he had at this point, let alone a shaper. A hit by a -worm- at this time, takes half my health! However, my contempt for him couldn't be greater. Unlike the random rebel lifecrafter, traitor shaper or Drakon, he knew the students personally. He was tasked with our protection. He admits, openly, that the other teachers immediately charged the enemies, no thoughts of retreat and died fighting. You know, the thing you expect from mage mentors in a magocracy that see the future of their sacred organization under mortal danger. About the comment of "We don't learn much about what happened in Sucia" we also haven't learned much about what happened in the Ashen islands! Sure, Litalia, Greta and Alwan all have told me "The academy was attacked. We won. Later on, we conquered them all and kicked shapers out." But that is it. Another shaper in GF4, an old woman purist (like internal shaper police) that called me freak and then shaped me to give me +1 spellcraft (yes, shapers are crazy) told me that the headmaster or something, Rahul fought like a hero etc gave his life to stop the monsters and all. I think she had a crush on that shaper boss. I have also learned from Drakons that... Ghaldring was there. And Akari Blaze. And that is it. That is all I've learned about GF3 from the rest. Perhaps I forget a couple of details but I really don't know enough for it to be spoiled.

As a note, I want to tell everyone that I give a good report of the "interesting" parts and important NPCs to my sister, that doesn't play these games but asks me about how X did etc. I actually take notes when playing so I can tell her. While we occasionally do that for movies, the story of the saga is captivating that every part I play, deserves a long facebook \ phone discussion. My sister is the one demanding I go the shaper route in this game. And I usually listen to my big sister.

It sure explains your perspective and I would probably feel the same... if I played GF1 or GF2. For me, even the notion of shaper student is new. For the first time EVER I'm not a freak, but a shaper-wannabe! For the first time ever I see things like "Attack on shapers? That can't be possible." NOT being given access to a geneforge yet also feels fresh. I hope I find one soon, cause my character feels the weakest starting character I had. I wonder if, by a miracle, for the first time in over 150 hours of playing Geneforge games, I'll find a shaper tutor that will teach me WITHOUT telling me how much of a freak I am and how many sacred laws I break by existing and how he or she only teaches me because of necessity. I have grown frustrated with Shapers looking down their nose on me at the very least for not being part of their sacred above-all order. Moseh, in GF4, literally impaled in machines powered by drawing the life out of people or creations... called ME a freak. This time, I can look at lifecrafters in the face and tell them they are the freaks! I can give back some of the abuse I've endured by shapers for over 150 hours! When the Servant mind called me "powerful shaper" (LOL) and told me how the ungrateful rogues we brought to power turned upon us I wanted to kiss the screen.

Hmmm? Did you prefer the openings of the other games? Why if I may ask so?

LOOOOOL Hillarious. GF3 beginning is certainly the best from GF3-5. The propaganda (See above), my shock of finding the dead novices etc. Now, if I didn't have to kill worms but actually was a bit more powerful...