alhoon

I would be more interested in greater variance between the existing tiers. I.e. to have more tier 1/2/3/4 options.

BUY training for leadership? I didn't know it was possible in GF1. Thank you. I will hold off choosing a faction till I get the Girdle. Or, if I go for too long, I will simply buy leadership 10. I am at leadership 8 right now and have 5 skill points left-over.

When you say "very high leadership"... what are we talking about? Also, is there any leadership boosting item?

I have loaded after killing the Sholai and I was very pro-Awakened till I found Kazg. Now I am ... ambivalent. Both factions appeal to me. I am not going to whack anyone for the other's side mob boss. I honestly wish there was an option to make them stop fighting. I planned to wipe out the Sholai or hit them hard once I was able to, but now I see they are needed if the Serviles are to be free (in the GF1 narrative). Knowing what comes next I am less inclined to hop in with them and I have not talked to any Sholai yet (I don't know the language) to see what they think of the Serviles. But, my main goal in this game is to make the serviles at least lessen their infighting. Which, I admit means beating back the Takers as they have gone powermad and dropped in bed with the Sholai and throw monsters at all the others. The Sholai started the whole whooha but the Takers continue it. And yet, the Takers are what the Serviles need. I agree more, much more, with the Awakened but the Shapers would never listen to them. The Geneforge, an army of Shaped and Shaping invaders and cannisters are needed for the Serviles to break free and perhaps, one day, be able to discuss with Shapers.

They have small and under-developed organs according to the lore I've read. And presumably, short lifespans.

I think the Rotdhizon in GF2 was able to speak in a primitive way, but I may be wrong. Also, it may have been retro-ed in later games even if that was the case since GF2 was the first game that introduced Rotdhizons. As for Rotgroth's rotting... aside of the name, I don't recall them rotting. The smell of rot-and-vinegar is what Essence smells like I think.

I would love to continue this discussion, but I would do so in the other forum, for the not-remade Geneforge games.

I agree on that. However, they are pretending to be the all-wise many-fail-safes guys. It is hard to improve, but they are supposed to be the best and if that's the best they could come up with, they are buttholes. For all the good things you put forward of the Shapers, there is the other side of the coin and different, much more selfish motivations. From what I have seen from the Servant Minds, there were a few shapers that were mostly motivated by sympathy/mercy and a lot of Shapers that were against-purge mostly so they could continue their work. If the Shapers knew they won't return when they barred the island, instead of hoping they would "be back soon", I have no doubt they would have purged most of what made Sucia so attractive: The canisters and the geneforge. (Not the creations) You're asking me how they could improve: Simply by eradicating the canisters, records and the geneforge would be enough. Few would have reasons to go back there. Doing everything mostly from the beginning would be impossible too. The Servant minds didn't know enough to be useful without the records. The Serviles didn't know anything. To make sure that this impossible task is not undertaken in secret, a contingent of 7-8 Guardians placed on the island would be enough to dissuade rogue researchers from trying to slowly put the research back together, with 2-3 agents showing up every 2-3 years to make sure none of those Guardians do anything naughty. The biggest mistake of the Shapers was that in their arrogance, they thought they would return to researching godhood, because that's what this is about. (Mistake, not crime. Their biggest crime was leaving the Serviles IMO. Even without the Geneforge and the Sholai, the serviles suffered needlessly.) NOTE: I have not yet encountered any sizeable population of Drayks to address the other big crime of the Shapers IMO: the "woops, you are too smart and too hard to control for me to allow you to exist. I have to kill you because you may one day decide you want to be free." That reminds me of Ghaldring's words to one Cryodrayk he shaped "I apologize for making a faulty creation like you" before re-absorbing it or something. The Shapers didn't even feel guilt towards that. NOTE2: I am talking from GF1 narrative only. I would prefer to not discuss in this thread what happens in future games and how the Shapers mishandle the Sucia situation in the worse way. Except of course, in the following spoiler! Warning: Spoilers for future games and part of this between-games lore may change in the remakes - or when I find more about what happened in GF1

To the Shapers. The man prefers to die free than submit. That's his choice. Fanaticism, but his choice and there's something respectable to staying true to your beliefs. The Obeyers on the other hand are justified to kill a spy and saboteur. He wasn't there to make friends. The Shapers now. They abandoned, for whatever reason, the Serviles on Sucia all alone after instilling into them a culture of obedience and making them dependent on the Shapers for direction, to "do the thinking". Lack of critical thinking would often lead to fanaticism. The Obeyers fanatically worship the Shapers because they were conditioned to. The Takers fanatically oppose the Shapers because they feel betrayed and, after the rose-tinted glasses were removed, they realized they have been treated horribly. The two different ideologies are both tied back to the Shapers. Both sides of the coin, Blind hate and blind reverence, are there because of the way the Shapers made and conditioned serviles (Obeyers) / treated the serviles and abandoned the serviles (Takers). If the Shapers were not complete and utter buttholes, that Servile would not have to die. All Serviles would be closer to the awakened, diverging on one side or the other but not to those extremes we see.

No spoilers clarification: Some of the assumptions I have been discussing under in this thread, have just been proven (Mine Core zone) to be partially wrong. @CoryleaTake what I said here with a grain of salt and wait to explore more of the island. As a note, my opinion doesn't change but there were things I have not taken into account. Some old timers that we discuss with in the past few years would probably be tempted to say "This is a common occurrence". Well, what can I say? The going-to explanation I have for things I see is based around "The Shapers are irresponsible, authoritarian knowledge-hoarders." So unless I see evidence there's a different reason for something instead of just Shapers acting as irresponsible, authoritarian power-hoarders I go under this assumption.

What ways are there to clear the "Eastern Mines" please? I have killed every one of those evil pylons that killed my creation and I have found a device that uses crystals to do not-useful-to-me things. I cannot deactivate those machines there, they blow up on me and kill my creations. I guess I could battle-grid my way there and do it, but I wonder whether that would be enough. I have killed every pylon in there because they killed my first ever creation.

Or, you could do what I do: Put a "please no spoilers" in the opening post and/or title. Then the nice people of this forum would respect your wishes. It has worked for me.

Trust me, if you want to avoid spoilers, you have to be VERY CAREFUL on what you read... I know that I stopped reading comments in this thread after this one just to avoid spoilers and I have played GF2-5. Keep in mind that most people in this forum have played GF1-5 and perhaps more than once. Then, they gather in this forum to discuss it which is reasonable. So, if you want to avoid spoilers, you have to step carefully. The good thing is that this special forum is for the remakes.

Do you want spoilers from the other games (that may well be changed in the remakes) or not? There are some not-right assumptions in your post. Non-spoiler, only GF1: I was told by Serviles that they are scared by the changes they see in my character. I am pretty sure it would get worse with time as I consume more cannisters. Tiny-spoiler, from what future games were: Ehh... someone told you that the Rebellion are not exactly paragons of virtue. Take that as a hint...

Don't worry. What @ultra112 says represents his opinion. The games are really not black and white. I strongly disagree with the assessment that the Rebellion was worse. They were (IMO) a significant improvement not just for the Serviles, but for everyone. Sure, to get there a bloody war was needed. But the next day if the Rebels win (the player decides that...) is better than the status quo pro-Rebellion. Or so I think and many disagree with me. There are different ways to win GF5 BTW. Different endings + variations for each ending. Your ending may (will probably be) different than my ending. My opinion, without spoilers is: The Rebellion at its worst was better than the Shapers at their Worst. The Rebellion on its best was much better than the Shapers on their best. True, the Rebellion at its worst was worse than the Shapers at their best. But that is not a fair comparison. I think most people that are aligned with the Shapers do so because the first games you play a Shaper. You learn the world from a Shaper's purview with the good and the bad, but you're a Shaper. I started the games at GF4 - the Rebellion. So I didn't have the rose-tinted glasses of the 3-games-as-a-Shaper. The only game that really made me iffy about the Rebellion is GF3. But I won't give spoilers. No Spoilers suggestion: I honestly suggest you play GF3-GF5 as they won't be ready for several years. And that's where the Rebellion actually starts. Again, in my opinion, GF1-2 are "prequels" to the story, GF3-5 are the main story. GF3-5 form a closer narrative with many major NPCs from GF3 staying around through GF5. GF1 -3 are located in small areas, while GF4-5 you play in a laaarge part of the continent and cross many realms. GF4-5 have a more cohesive system and better graphics. In GF3 you start to see Shapers ruling over large groups of people, although to get to an actual city instead of backwards small settlements you have to play for some time. In GF1 you see Serviles ruling significant settlements of Serviles and you learn how things were for them when they lived in semi-peace for a century. I honestly doubt those things would change in the future relaunches. What I believe will happen is better consistency between the games and perhaps extra endings or ending variations.

Wait what? I have it from steam!!! Will I lose my saves too? It loads fine for me so far, but I don't want to lose my saves regardless

Nope, what you say sounds good enough. Thank you.

Hi there. I found the time and energy to get back to this great game after a short hiatus. I am progressing steadily, I have reached lvl 12 and I am exploring towards random directions trying to find a Drayk cannister. So... without many spoilers, may I ask which direction I should be looking at for a drayk cannister? I am in some mines North-East with pylons. Sneaky pylons that killed Firetooth, my first ever creation in the game that has been with me since I was level 1. I have no trouble turning back and going somewhere else - after I get revenge on the pylons. My Shaper is level 12, I play moderate difficulty and my creations are level 14-16. Theoretically, I should be able with some save-scumming and item use to get through most areas to grab a cannister. I am not aligned with any faction.

Really? I have not noticed that... Well, then perhaps they do need the leap.

To think, Akhari Blaze had so much control that he could keep 100 unbound under control. But other than right when they're made, Unbound are supposed to be uncontrollable. Fire-and-Forget weapons. That means that after you lose control of them, you should not be able to assume it again.

The quick action allows them to make more attacks, not move faster. I don't know what you mean that it closes distance rather quickly. They have the same speed as all creations IIRC.

The time I ended up in Pentil's gates, out of essence and literally in my last breath, wounded and with my creations hovering on death's door because of all those $%#$%$@# Vlish was memorable. As I said, I am in-between Awakened and Takers at the time. If it wasn't for those $%^@#$@ Vlish, I would have gone for the Takers probably. But they had to go and put Vlish everywhere and align with the Sholai. I didn't finish the Witcher, but went pretty far. Far enough to have the discussion with my knight Friend from the Order about him thinking I betrayed him and his precious Order by aligning with the "$$$$" (as they were calling the non-humans). It was clear to me that there would be people that supporting the Order although I didn't get in any forums about it, but I was with the Freedom fighters all the way... and I personally I remember some of their choices being ... questionable, but not enough for me to consider them NOT the good guys. You mentioned you're from a country that abolished slavery 150 years ago. I am from a country that had to fight for its freedom several times, overthrowing conquerors and liberating compatriots. Our flag's colors symbolize "Freedom or Death". In the 'enlightment' era of my country, late 18th century, we had songs like "Better live free for one hour, than forty years as a slave". Men were abandoning their villages (under the regime of our conquerors) to live in the mountains and the caves in order to be free.

Psss. You liked my post as I was still editing it. I hope you still like it.

I thought at first that I would side with the Awakened. Now, after being at the Taker areas I am not so sure anymore. I don't see myself harming the Awakened to be honest as I like them a lot. But I am hovering between Awakened and Takers at the time. The Takers have guts of steel. I can tell you that. They know their fight would end in annihilation but they are still seeing worth in the fight itself, wanting to die free than live their lives as slaves. They believe their moment of Freedom, the freedom they want to take would be when the Shapers kill them. They LIVE for the moment they will die as martyrs. Fanatics? yes. But there is something admirable in that drive for freedom. Especially after I dealt with the obeyers. All in all, I would suggest NOT joining the Awakened until you speak with the other factions and learn their beliefs. Not just the few words you will hear from their boss, but reading their journals, speaking with the rank-and-file quest givers, see how they live. You dislike the Obeyers and I understand that. Are you ready to sabotage them? To 'turn the tide' against them so that they will die off a few at a time as things turn from bad to worse to impossible for them? I don't think I can do that. I dislike SOME obeyers and I dislike the beliefs of all Obeyers. But I don't hate every and all Obeyers. I don't know what the Awakened will ask of me, but based on what I have seen from all factions, at some point, each and every one of them will want me to make the life of the other factions harder - to the point their societies will collapse and they will die. Perhaps the Awakened are different. Perhaps they want to dominate other two factions instead of completely eliminate them down to the last servile. But I don't hold my breath. The "get with us" quest of the Takers was to go and kill the Awakened boss just because. What has Ellirah done that is so bad to the Takers? He simply doesn't want to jump headfirst to a suicidal war with the Shapers. That's his crime. And by beheading the Awakened (and probably having to kill a bunch of them to get out) they are left weakened at a time that Rogues come in. Rogues that I strongly suspect the Takers are putting there, or the friends-of-the-Takers. Screw that. I am not going to eliminate any faction. Depending on what those quests may be, I may end up not going too far in ANY faction. I disagree with the Obeyers but I will not go and kill them directly, or weaken them to the point they will have trouble surviving. I want all the serviles of the island to live as they were before the Invaders showed up. Disagreeing, yes, but coexisting. People with different opinions and beliefs. I don't want my side to "win" by eliminating the other sides or forcing them to kneel by breaking their legs. I don't have an easy answer as to what the #### I could do, especially at this point. I would prefer to convince the Obeyers to become like the Awakened and I would prefer to convince the Takers that they should not align with powerhungry invaders and send hordes of monsters to kill other Serviles. But I do not want to make the decisions for the Serviles. I was and I will keep being a Lifecrafter at heart, not a Shaper. I will avoid making the decisions FOR the Creations when possible. And I will keep reloading my game when I lose a creation, even though they don't level up anymore and I can make the exact same creation moments after it was killed. I like my creations. They are not expendable* *With the exception of a bunch of Pyroroamers that I Shaper-ly sent to their doom, moments after they were brought to this cruel world.

I had the same thoughts about how horrible the Shapers have been. The words of The Pentil boss in his journal were another punch to the gut. He has killed his followers, manipulated them or had them tortured (you can see all those bloody logs, shackles and whips) for not being loyal enough to the group of people that abandoned them to die 100 years ago. And what is his deepest desire? His guilty thoughts? He finds himself at time wishing that a Shaper would tell him he did well. THAT is what this person desires and he feels guilty about wanting something from the Shapers. All the leader of the larger group of Serviles, that has blood on his hands, wants is for a Shaper to pet him on the head like a dog and tell him "good boy". Rydell's loyalty is admirable but he's loyal to the wrong people. He's a brainwashed creature and a huge waste of potential. The Obeyers make me feel unclean. They make me feel uneasy in their place. They disgust me. Not because they are themselves disgusting but because of the disgusting things that have happened to them in order to condition thinking creatures to behave like the beat-up Fyoras the Obeyers have tamed. But worry not. There is a solution... Down with the Shaper Tyranny! Burn Shapers in their ivory towers! You may like or dislike the Canisters and down the line the guys on the Rebellion side are not perfect but they are much better towards the serviles and the thinking creations than the Shapers. You are absolutely correct that being a Shaper is shameful. The Shapers are looking down on the outsider people and lock them out of the knowledge. They are hoarding power pretending they are the only ones wise enough to use it, when the world is littered with the disasters of their making. The Shaper Tyranny must end. Welcome to the Rebellion. We will remake the world to a better place. I am hovering between Awakened and takers at this point. I didn't think the Takers could have much except "Unlimited Poweeeer!" to convince me but their absolute dedication to die free, knowing how their fight will end but still wanting to fight for it regardless is earning them points in my favor. Yes, they are fanatics. But they strive for freedom at all costs. According to the Taker beliefs they prefer to die standing up than live on their knees.