alhoon

Ellrah's keep. While sneaking around I found Chris the not-rogue Cryoa that the Serviles were trying to train. And I commanded Chris to go back. So... a creation that is born naturally can be commanded by Shapers even if it was not Shaped? I think this has been mentioned in GF4 and/or GF5. I remember a discussion with bandit serviles that were afraid I would take over them. Also, I was surprised by the dead servant mind. I assumed spies did it but Ellrah tells me the awakened did... a few months ago. Something's not adding up here. If the SM was trying to take over the creations it should have been deposed years earlier. And why smash all the nutrients for servant minds? It was tough to cut through the Vlish to reach the Obeyers... and I found an active Shaper lab, with a Fyora in the middle. My jaw hit the floor but then a kind Servile told me they are taming the rogues. It doesn't sit very well with me. And then the Servive alchemist / Fyora tamer very politely flipped me off because I am not evil enough to oppress Serviles. The ease at which the Obeyer boss admitted they make life miserable for the others shocked me. Mickall Blade's fanaticism is disconcerning, to say the least. These people are crazy. There's loyalty and there's madness. I know at which side of the line the Obeyers fall. I have seen loyal serviles in all other games, and they are not that fanatic. They are as bad as Shapers. Nevertheless, according to Mickall, three years ago the rogues showed up all twisted and then ... better? I don't like this. If there's someone from the "evil humans" that killed my poor boat-drayk and used the Geneforge 3 years ago, I am in deep poop. I didn't have the heart to tell the poor Obeyer librarian that her records are practically worthless, so against my better judgement, I told her she's doing a good job. I was disappointed that she now wants to waste more effort on upkeeping 100 year old records. Despite some initial reluctance, once I leveled, I bought the last of the living tools, increased mechanics and got myself a roamer to replace a Vlish-killed Cryora. Buffing my creations to level 8, I managed to cut through the fight of the Pentil gate with relative ease (using daze, crystals and a fiery wand) At the inutile Village (South part of the map, there are probably more villages) I got an interesting dialogue that Inutile Serviles, defined as unable to serve the Shapers, damaged or rogue may not be killed outright by Shapers. I guess, based on what I have seen in the following games that the Inutile that are not killed immediately are more often than not damaged Serviles. BUT It does give credence to something an NPC I think said in GF4 (I think): that Shapers are becoming much harsher because of the Great Rebellion. Apparently at the time of Geneforge 1, Rogue Serviles were not killed immediately, just ... 99% of the time (as similar dialogues from when I met the Awaken inform me). Regardless, do you know what happened while I was contemplating on that? You could never guess... A servile accidentally walked into a mine. Boom. Bye Servile that I never had the chance to speak to. I found the kleptomaniac Servile with the sad story and the beyond belief good things in her store. It is a miracle how she hasn't been killed for those treasures yet. If I had someone in my village that could find such an awesome robe (Warded robe, 1500 gp real value!) I would not kick her away. I also found the too-smart Thahd that is rogue while it wants to obey Shapers but according to him, he doesn't know how. No wonder the Takers kicked him out. At first, the two BBetas in an area of this level, and controlled at that were a huge surprise. I got to meet the Ascended and I met my end instead... I didn't know about the key yet. Only later I finished the quest and got the key to pass them. Last but not least: The Inutile Village is IMO one of the best developed areas with the deepest (even if simple) NPCs. I would not turn against the Awakened anyway, but on top of that, the Inutiles, trying and struggling to live their lives as an outcast community are being protected by the Awakened. I like that.

Interesting.

Agreed. In case that was directed towards my answers too, I never meant to suggest one should try to play an agent like a Shaper. I was just saying that not be surrounded is much easier for a Shaper.

This is a new area? Already? Coolio.

A shaper has much more ease to avoid being surrounded though. I walk surrounded by my beasties and keep my distance. If there are many enemies I stay back and heal or bless instead of joining the fight.

Is there a reason to do it early though? Instead of 2 levels later?

"Gets tougher" than half a dozen 9th lvl creations? I tried sneaking but with 3 creations in the party it is not easy. Is there a reason I should go see whatever is there now instead of when I am say... 1-2 levels highers? __________________________ Another important question: I have been told that there is a leadership-way to go grab a battle-alpha canister that is a few zones North of Pentil. However... I have fire shaping 4 and battle shaping 1. I checked the files and saw Battle Alpha basic level is 7 while basic roamer level is 3. So... effectively my battle Alpha would be level 8 or something while my roamer is level 9 already because of boosts and I can give him a couple more levels. What I want to know is: Is it worth it to "scam" that way to get battle alphas? Sure, Alphas have more hp and they have armor ... but they're not ranged. From this thread, they seem to do about the same damage as roamers of equal level. My level 9 Roamer costs 17 essence. How much would a battle alpha cost (with one level upgrade)? I play on normal, BTW and so far it is what I expect (casual, I occasionally have to think or if I am unlucky I am swarmed but I am mostly fine).

Ahh... my experience in the Dry Wastes: "Vini, Vedi, ran away" Well, I also use daze. I had to do proper thinking and even positioning to take down the spawner outside Pentil without casualties. It is fun... once a while. I am not about to go barefoot through broken glass in order to kill a bunch of clawbugs when it can be avoided.

In the insanely awesome Inutile village, one of my favorite places packed with very interesting people, I peacefully got a key to go see some enigmatic Ascended that ... ? I have no idea what they are, whether they are Sholai canister junkies or ghosts. What I know is they put 2 Battle Betas. Never the less, to the question. I confidently strolled to the Ascended labs with the key that the Crystal-shiner Servile assured me would let me see the first of the Ascended. It worked on the battle betas like a charm. I saw an impressive array of creations and I go "hmmm! Those Ascended are probably hitting a few cannisters too many..." and clicked to move between the 4-5 clawbugs and Vlish. And they all attacked me and my char was dead before they even finished their attack routine. Is it a bug? I have the key! Why are they attacking me? Should I leave and return when I can take 4-5 level 9 creations together?

I thought that too. Led to butt-on-a-plate, reloads and quick retreats from a couple of areas. Disclaimer: I am not doing a lot of tactics thinking and who should do what etc and I don't make the best use of my crystals and wands. I am sure some of the areas that I have trouble in as 7th lvl shaper you guys could clear in veteran at that level. Basically, except for some fights (including some tough Vlish), my strategy is: Use the creation's (Cryoas and roamer) most powerful ranged attack and then spam attack till the creation can do so again. Heal creations that are terrified by Vlish or that got their HP low. Stay at the outskirts of battle. None of the weird combos of "let's put the aura to the Cryoa and then move it where it can hit enemies passively" or "Let's make a pyroroamer and send it in AFTER my creations block X and Y"

Similar to that. Outside of Pentil, I found a dungeon. In there there were 4-5 powerful Vlish that I had to lure away one at a time to defeat and then run away to heal. In the end I found... nothing of importance. A Geneforge-like pool that simply poisoned me. Having to have a tough fight in order to die by acid is mean. Would totally do it again. But I still want to know whether I missed something.

I am playing on normal. So far, enemies don't leap at me. Not even thahds (although I daze them from distance). And I stay weeeell away from clawbugs to see if it would happen.

Friendly fire: Well, I was talking normal difficulty without AoE. With friendly fire, those area attacks you mention hit your guys too so I don't think you could use them all the time either. I.e. 4 creations with area attacks would not all be able to make their area attack because of friendly fire. Α Shaper will struggle to control the high level creations. Agents can cast blessings etc for longer durations... I am not saying Agent is not harder than the Shaper, I am saying that Shaping is not worthless for an agent. The difference between Agent and Shaper, I think (could well be wrong, never played an agent to completion), would end up in the agent being with 2-3 creations instead of 4-5 creations and 1-2 levels lower creations. However, the Agent is much more effective in a fight than a Shaper, at least as much as a shaper's creation. What I mean is: Agent +2 creations of 12th lvl should be just a little weaker than Shaper +4 creations of 14th lvl. <=== Again, my opinion as I don't know how good an agent is in battle. And Agents can (probably) sneak by easier without a horde of monsters next to them. Sneaking by is, at least for my Shaper, harder that previous titles because of my creations (and I don't have points to put on stealth). Chance to hit for agent: Doesn't the proficiency also add to your chance to hit? I.e. with missile 5 you have the same chance to hit as with missile 2? Even if that's the case, with spellcraft and mastery, the agent may miss ... but she won't necessarily waste the round as she would have a chance to fire again.

I found that in the early game at least, daze can take out nearly all enemies. Except the #$@# Vlish. With my level 6 Shaper and with occasional use of the discipline wand to use daze with fewer points so I could also heal, I managed to kill the rogues outside of Pentil's gate with relative ease. Also: 3 Cryoras and a roamer at level 10? What level are the creations? If your creations are more than 2-3 levels below the enemy, they will be missing a lot. I would suggest (someone else also said that) to boost their levels. Are you a fellow Fire-Shaping-focus Shaper? I found out that at least for me, the creations are better in ranged attacks.

However, checking the creatures file, I found no creature that draws from the agent. Even the spectres don't use the agent. So you should be safe to make the change as I don't find any other enemy or NPC that uses the agent's stats. As someone else mentioned, simply add cr_bonus_aps = 1; below the cr_name = "Agent"; Always backup your originals. I mean it. A typo in this file could crush your game. Another way to do it, is to have someone or something to give you an item that gives you bonus Action Points in the very early game. <== that assumes items still give action points which I have not verified. Avoid simply editing an item to give you action points because, as our friend above said, especially items are used and reused often. You affect a ring and you affect several rings. It is a pain to go look for all the items that use the same entry and correct them. If you want to go that route, please tell me what item you want and I will tell you how to give it to your character through script. On the topic of agents being weaker: I used to think so too, but keep in mind that as I have been told (in this same forum by a couple of those same people): Shaping is powerful as it is supposed to be in the lore. Shapers are not much more powerful than agents, simply because agents can also shape. Yes, an agent would have fewer and weaker creations than a shaper. But more powerful spells. I do believe Shapers are more powerful because frankly my character is a pushover compared to my creations. I am practically a daze-casting zero (early game). But that's certainly not to say that agents are held back as they can have creations too. The requirements to get the good creations are not that high; by the time you get 3rd tier creations, even an agent could afford the 2-3 points needed. Suggested solution: If you think Shapers are more powerful because of their creations, boost your agent's shaping skills instead. Start with +3 to all shaping skills and you should be in par with a mid-game guardian on shaping power (and have more control because the Guardian probably didn't buy +3 to all shaping skills).* If you don't want to play with creations, there are ways to do that but the game is harder. If you want your agent to be more powerful as a mage, you could use the script to give your character a boost in say, spellcraft and battle magic by+3. * Here is how to do it: Your starting creation fyora would be much more powerful, 3 levels are very important in the early game. But, because you have 3+3+4=10 in shaping skills you would be able to keep the creation under control. Keep in mind that as others said, this would make your character much more powerful. Your creations would hit like a guardian's while your character's spells would hit like an agent's. Especially the early game, where you are supposed to have 1-2 creations even if you're a shaper at levels 6-7 but you would have 1-2 at 8-10 while hitting like an agent would also be much easier.

Level depends solely on yours skills and the boosts you give to the creations.

Not exactly, no. Monarch's goal was to eradicate everything that was not Monarch-made. Which means, it would end Shaping. And sentient life.

😮 Ehh... no, not that I remember. The opening is "this has been happening for the past 10 years" and the ending is ... the faction ending of "And the story of the Great Rebellion ends" I don't recall anything about life ending in any of the endings, not even Taygen's or Trakovite ending. The Monarch did that...

I honestly don't remember that at all and it sounds strange. Perhaps someone said it could lead to that? Agree and everyone knows that. They are not hiding it and the cryodrayks rebelled even from GF4. Thus, Greta attacks them in the end and overthrows the drakons. (I didn't have an ending where Greta died). Also, while Greta says she doesn't plan to change one kind of Shaper with another and the drakons are far from benign to serviles... they are significantly better than the Shapers. They won't help the serviles develop, but they don't use them as slave labor. They just use them as... cheap labor. There's a difference between a 15th century peasant and a slave. Not that either has a good life, but it is better to not be a slave.

GF5 Trakovites are the worst of the worst. Way worse than the "let's make sure the war goes on". As for the "for the common people the Shapers present stability and stability is better than anarchy" you have a point but ... you can't make omelette without breaking eggs. A brief war to get rid of the Shaper tyranny is preferable than centuries of suffering. And that goes for the common people only. For the Serviles, the drayks, the drakons the rebellion was better than the stability of the Shapers. Thus... LONG LIVE THE REBELLION!!!! But I see what you mean. In GF3 it was hard, really hard, to join the rebels. And since I started as a Shaper with the Rebels killing my friends, the choice was actually: "Buttholes A that I started as and I have a seat on the table" or "Buttholes B that killed my friends" So... yeah. It was not easy joining the rebels. I made my mind that my character did it for the power, not out of any moral obligation. Rebels = canisters + "faster rise in the new era". So... I guess my character in GF3 is an opportunistic butthole that should have never been a Shaper.

The Shapers are horrible. And they are at their "best" in this game because you don't see them doing horrible things. This is the "least bad" I have seen from the Shapers in the geneforge games I've played (2-5).

Nope. Creations don't steal player XP

OK, I will go there once I up my leadership. I am level 6 btw now.

I am not sure I could handle an Alpha yet... it could well go rogue and kill me. Where is the Spiral Burrow?

The sneaky Vlish issue: After significant effort, I managed to clear out Pentil Woods, got the message "You killed enough Vlish" and all. I was near the South-Eastern exit and hurt. I walk out from that direction and I see a spooky place called "The Tombs" (I play the game blind, without prior experience of GF1 so I don't know what that is). When the Vlish were handing me by butt on a plate and that Spawner in Pentil Woods had me reloading like 3 times and use 2 curing spores (spawning vlish that turned my creations away) and 1 healing spores bag... when I saw a place called "the Tombs" I said "Nah, not yet." And I returned back to the cleared Pentil Woods. A vlish was on top of me the moment I stepped back carefree. I kid you not. I click "get back to that cleared area" in the map and I get in an encounter with a Vlish. Thankfully no other Vlish were nearby so the Screech didn't mean I lost my trusty creations and a lucky cryoa crit = I won despite being wounded. As a note, I have lost a creation to the Spawned. I may start naming them 1, 2, 3 etc like @Blxz did in his playthrough of Geneforge 5, in honor of his re-emergence. Is there a way to stop the sneaky Vlish? Furthermore, Could you tell me whether a Vlish Canister or Clawbug cannister is in my future? The Roamer Cannister requires six living tools, so it would seriously set me back.