Hyena of Ice

You don't need to make a backup save for playing around until you reach the second island. BTW, there's a dummied out dialogue with Alwan at the Harmony E. Docks (first zone on Harmony Isle, the second island). If you want to read it, then you will need to (assuming you use Win7) go to Computer>>Programfilesx86>>Geneforge3>>Data>>Scripts Open the file named z15eastdockdlg.txt (preferrably in Wordpad or Notepad++ rather than notepad) Shame they dummied it out. It's one of the few times in G3 where you actually see Greta get angry. You should take a look after you clear that area There really isn't a problem before you get part way through the second island. The main point is to be careful not to acquire a certain special item in the lower level of the Shaper's place. So have some saves there. You will want to pick it up before you leave for the third island, however, as you get a ruby necklace if you give it to someone at the Dhonal Inner Keep. Being pro-shaper until after you do business with the blacksmith at Dhonal Inner Keep is the way to go. You will want to try and move your alignment closer towards the middle once you enter the third island/Dhonal Isle, as one of the shopkeepers at Ft. Wilton will give you better deals and sell additional items if you give her research notes (which is only possible if you are slightly pro-rebel) You may want to hold off on this however, as you need to be at least slightly pro-shaper in order to get Mooney's quest at Wilton. Oh, that reminds me, DO NOT sell any of your dried herbs, research notes, or shaper equipment. Also, on Harmony Isle, you will need 3 wiry moss for a quest, so make sure not to sell them all. Don't give all of them to the person who asks all at once-- unlike in G4, you get the same amount of experience per item given regardless of your level (for example, IIRC you get 4 xp for every dried herb you give the herb lady-- so you get the same exp per herb regardless of whether your level is 10 or 40. I believe this rule also applies to G2.) Oh, and when you get to Kyra's Refuge (optional area at the Harmony West dock) the specters (and I think the ghosts as well) have a 1% chance of dropping an Agent Cloak. So repeatedly backup save and wipe out the ghosts until you get one-- otherwise you won't have a chance (and it will only be a remote one) at the end of Dhonal/the third/largest isle, and barring that, you won't get it until you clear the 4th island. Also, if you do get one, then be sure to postpone augmenting it until you can get your hands on a golden crystal (this won't be until near the end of Dhonal/the third isle) Another tip-- Always save before talking to someone new. If you get a key or convince them to unlock a door/chest, then re-load the game and lockpick it-- usually, you'll get more for using living tools on the locked door tghan you will for convincing them to open it for you, give you the key, or for using the key (ALWAYS RE-LOAD THE GAME IF YOU ACCIDENTALLY GET A KEY!! *unless it's an essential one, such as Khyryk's/Agatha's key to the Khor's docks) See now why I told you to get 10 mechanics ASAP?

Ah. I actually recognize a LOT of the models. So far I've only seen them from Daz and er... a site I can't mention >_> Still can't figure out what the hell the roamer is, though. Could that possibly be the Mildog? If so, then what the (bleep) did she do to it? And how did she keep the rigging from screwing up the bends? (big problem even with modern Poser/DAZ models when you dial in extreme/stylized morphs) O_o I mean, the animations are definitely very dog-like, but the thing looks like a mutant frog with teeth, LOL! (Seriously, I have not seen anything that looks even remotely like the roamer on DAZ or the other site-- not even in the Wayback Machine...) That said, she must have handed the program/files over to someone else as I see quite a few of the same Poser item/background object models in Avadon and the Avernum remakes that were used from G1~A4, and quite a few of those would not have been available at the Daz store by the Geneforge 4 era. Oh, and to answer your question, yes, I do have OCD.

I'm poetry illiterate, so I don't understand what you're even saying. Are you cosplaying Jeff Vogel, or something? That seems kinda libelous... And still no one has answered my request for a caretaker of my website. Does this even exist? As I said, I'm poetry illiterate. I don't even see a request for anything in that post.

Yeah, and we've seen THAT backfire... *Glances over at Richard Garriott and the late Gary Gygax* In fact, I can't remember, but didn't they actually get cheated out via the exact same loophole? I know Gygax was in space at the time, but I can't remember for certain if Garriott was or not (seems like he was) Just remember that these companies are or include publishers/distributors-- working with their ilk always runs serious risks of having your IP stolen by them, or they will at least try to coerce you into signing your IP rights away to them (thus, if you ever want to leave and go with a different company, you can't use any of the franchises you developed in YOUR studios that you had them redistribute) a hostile takeover, punitive measures against your development team, and more. As you can tell, I don't have a high opinion of publishers or distributors. Not the least of which due to how Electronic Arts and Ubisoft have destroyed so many good development companies. Then there's the whole Bratz fiasco which is beyond disgusting. And don't even get me started on the RIAA (and I'm just talking about how they treat their musicians!) These kinds of deals are the second best way to strip the soul from your franchise/titles/songs/etc-- a distant second only to handing the reins to someone else. Sorry for the rant. Bit of a sore point for me. Anyone who is a big Origin or Westwood fan knows exactly why.

How the not-yet-existing rebels managed to organize a widespread wave of violence to begin all in about the same time? How did they manage to keep under the radar for so long as to gather the requisite resources? Do we get answers to that? You'll find out about this on the fourth/Gull Island, and get the complete story at the creation village at the final island (assuming you play a rebel during your first playthrough, that is. Otherwise you don't get AS complete a picture on the final isle) So, the verdict is: Shapers were informed that something is happening. They were further informed that it was probably big, that it involved rogues. A few (at least the Ashen Island boss) tried to contain the rogues till someone could bother to clear them up. And left it at that. After all, what could go wrong, by ignoring sights of rogues or at most saying "OK, we quarantine this place to clean it up after the Shaperball! It's the finals and Burnwood team will challege the Citadel's finest for the cup! We can't bother with armies of monsters right now", right? Oh, it's far worse than that. Once you get to Gull Isle... You will be floored. I should also mention that things are different on the second island-- the shaper(s) there can't be blamed for complacentcy. Thpough you'll learn more when you get there. Yes, you'll notice that Alwan is a very different person in this game, a hot-headed extremist with a big mouth. (his reaction to the drunk at the Kentia bar is the best example, unless he was merely posturing. BTW, make sure to save your game to a backup slot, then alienate Greta, then Alwan on different saves. They both get angrier during the Harmony Isle departures than at any other point in the game.) Strout presumably does not do models anymore, because it doesn't seem like she works for Spiderweb anymore. Her name quietly left the About Us page some years ago. I don't think we even know which year. But I think the comments we heard about her and Poser were from A4, which was just about ten (!) years ago, so they're a little out of date anyway. Ah, I see. I'll have to look at the newer games credits and see who the digital artist(s) is/are. Also, she actually commented about using Poser to make the sprites? I didn't realize that-- I simply figured it out on my own when I recognized some of the models used. Anyway: I found a guy that is diseased by a fatal disease a shaper made a century ago and that the shapers haven't eradicated. The Shaper was executed, but the damage was already done. Greta pounced at the opportunity to bash the order. Yup, Torsten. Having any second thoughts about still allowing plants and living items to be shaped? BTW, you see more examples of how this leads to disaster in G2 up to Medab-- Medab is the third example in that game. One of the disasters (second one) is actually shaper-approved.

For whatever reason, Jeff didn't feel any need to tweak the Agent graphic, I don't think it was a lack of need so much as a lack of resources. The original Agent used Victoria 1 and some fantasy skins made for her and I think G2. By G3 Strout probably wanted to use V3, but there were never, to my knowledge, any similar green skins sold at DAZ or the now defunct Poserpros (I don't know if Strout bought Poser products from any other store or not) The remade Agent status portrait in G5 uses Victoria 3 who lacked a simple green fantasy skin. She theoretically could have loaded a non-fantasy skin into GIMP and messed around with Color Decompose + toggle the HSV in order to get a green skin, then carefully erase the areas around the cheeks and lips (something that I have done when I want a nice fantasy skin), but it would have been a LOT of work, and I see very few examples of sprites/etc. that Linda didn't use straight out of the box. And before anyone says anything, I don't know if image masks were even available for Victoria 3, and Strout only used reduced resolution skins for sprite and scene renders in G5 (image masks/dual layer shaders slow render time by a bit-- the additional render time woulfd have been significant back in those days) You can tell that Strout tried to make Esther's status portrait skin Green in G5 postrender, but only succeeded in making her look jaundiced. As for the Guardian, the model used for him in G1 was a very old and dated product by G3, and would not have looked very good with its improved graphics. Hell, the helmet was used for the A4/5 metal helm items, and you can see the polygons! Imagine how awful it would have looked in his status portrait barring a LOT of postwork! Also back in 2005, AFAIK, there weren't any suitable armor sets for Michael 2 that looked similar to the G1 Guardian. Translation: I don't think it was a lack of need so much as a lack of resources. It was most likely due to a lack of fantasy skins for the current Poser female character (Victoria 3) that would have been used by the G3 era. The green skin texture used on Esther in G1 was for a different character model and could not be used on Victoria 3. As for the Guardian, by G3, the model used for the G1 guardian was old and so low-poly that it would have looked crappy with G3's improved graphics, just like the metal helmet item in A4, and there were no suitable replacement outfits for the current character models that looked like the G1 Guardian's. Poser and Bryce are the programs that Strout uses to render the sprites and background objects (but not ground tiles) for the SS games, going at least as far back as the original Avernum 1.

Not me. I hate the original one. Makes me feel like the character is a robot. Granted the G1~2 sprite is a more accurate representation of full Guardians, though (while I think the G3 sprite is more representative of the apprentice Guardians)

Greta didn't go out of her way to hunt them No, but she said that she agreed with the Shaper's decisions to hunt down and execute all Trakovites. And wow, I didn't know that you could go back to the Shapers on the fourth isle. Learn something knew about the game every time. Also, it would seem apparently that you can get rid of both of them if there's a speech for isle 3 and 4. But Matt P's most excellent FAQ on GameFaqs on Geneforge 3 confirms my comment about alienating one them all the way on isle 2. Maybe there is a check on isles 2.3 and 4? Yes. How far can I go with BOTH Alwan and Greta in the party? I like their contribution to discussions. Until the end of Dhonal Isle (3rd island), just as long as you don't give Lankan the canister or kill him on the second island. If you grab the strange canister from Diwaniya's basement, then don't enter the rebel camp until you hand it over to the purity officer at Dhonal Keep. Also, the graphics seem a bit... clunkier. Oh, man, you're going to hate G2 and G1, then. G3 is actually a huge graphical improvement over G2-- the biggest difference by far between one Geneforge game and its immediate successor. I mean, you think G3 has "clunky" graphics? I don't think you can alienate either one temporarily, can you? No. You can take the Shaper path on Dhonal, then take the Rebel path on Gull, but Greta still won't join you. Alwan you don't have a chance to speak to since the whole school (including him) will be hostile, even though he has a line in the Academy dlg file where he refuses to rejoin you. Shaping plants, thands, Fyoras, Kashiiks, etc seems fine to me. You'll change your mind once you meet Torsten in Ft. Kentia, trust me.

Putting Taygens actions on all the Shapers is disingenious. There is a reason he developed it in secret and released it without approval once Ghaldring was dead (that's how it was right ?). Indeed. It's just like blaming the actions of Agatha, Barazahl, Zakhary, the Shaper Monarch, Litalia, or even Danell on the Shapers. These were rogue shapers, who violated some of the most sacred of Shaper laws, and they did so on remote islands far from the prying eyes of the council. The Drakons, at least till near the end of the rebellion don't use slaves. What do you call the forefathers of The Unbound, then? What I mean is that Alwan and Greta are both fanatics, both have innocent blood in their hands... and both are not bad considering they're leaders in a civil war. You can't expect them to be actually good people. You can expect them to not unleash diseases or mad killing machines though. Greta was a proponent-- AND COLLABORATOR-- of unleashing the Unbound in G4, despite knowing that the majority of the people AND CREATIONS of Terrestria (the very people she was supposedly fighting for!!) would die-- while she, like the Drakons, gets to hole up safely in the Northforge Citadel, how convenient! I would say that makes her worse than Alwan, and that is saying something.

You have to read carefully, and read in-between the lines, but G3 does a good job at showing just how oppressed outsiders are. Again, you have to read between the lines in some areas. A prime example is Alwan's reaction in the Sea Caves. Read between the lines there to find out what outsiders have to put up with from Shapers. Also, make sure to pump your leadership up to 10 as soon as you can (mechanics should be given a priority as well) These should be your first priority skills, also make sure not to boost Missle Weapons, QA, or Parry until you buy a couple levels from the hunter/soldier in San Ru (make sure you're pro-shaper or else he can't train you.) Don't bother if you're a Guardian though, because the price isn't worth it. If you're a Guardian, then hold off of levels in Spellcraft until you buy a couple levels from Grechen in Dhonal Inner Keep. Also, make sure to boost Alwan's and Greta's INT early, or else they'll get the fear status every time their HP get low. Dumb, I know. I would suggest raising it by at least 1 point per level they gain. Also, some tricks and other misc info: --There is a cheat that I have discovered in the minefield woods, but it takes a lot of game loads and carefulness to do. You can actually disarm multiple mines in a chain, but it is risky. In order to do this, you must have triggered more than one mine. Any mines that you triggered before deactivating the first one will not be destroyed in the chain. You can then use your remaining AP to disarm these mines. Be warned that if you fail to disarm them before the next round, then they will go off. Without a speed pod, you can disarm up to two additional mines. With a speed pod, up to 4 (5 is possible, but unlikely) Save a speed pod or two for the last/innermost mines. --The infamous creation thief bug-- as long as you are not visible to anyone, you can send your creations/Alwan/Greta to steal anything lying around. Note that they still cannot enter the Sea Cave rebels' storeroom nor Shaper Jolana's bedroom without turning them hostile. --You need 7 or 8 leadership to convince the thahds at the Ambush bridge to leave, for a lot of experience. Use a speed pod right before talking to them, enter combat IMMEDIATELY after talking to them, and use icy crystals to try to kill them when they try to leave. --There is a sack completely hidden under some tree branches at the Minefield woods, in the clearing with the dead servile. Scroll your cursor over the tree branches to the right of it. It contains some grain. --There is a weirdass bug in this game that you should be wary of. I can't remember precisely how it is triggered-- I THINK, what I did, is that I clicked on the attack spell I wanted to cast (or a gem)-- then clicked on the sword icon, then clicked on the floor, so that I get the "finish what you're doing first" message. Then I clicked on myself-- due to a bug, I attacked myself. Make sure you don't do this; it hurts. Badly. --Save before checking any of the sparkly crystal pillars in the Kentia Mines. Whether it gives lovely or beautiful crystals is determined when you load the game. So if you get a blue one, load the game and keep trying until you get a red one. --Save before disarming blue mines (excepting minefield woods, these always create monsters) Sometimes killing the monster will net you better experience. --NEVER EVER disarm the mines in the Roamer Marsh. You will get far more experience for killing the monsters they create, plus said monsters can drop some really nice goodies. --There is a pot hidden in one of the houses at the Rebel Camp (I think the first one to the left) It is completely hidden behind a wall, so scroll your cursor over it until you find it. --Each set of the warped thahds in the Infested Shore will give you exp/drops the first time you kill them, not none after that. --There is a pot hidden behind the southern wall of Mooney's shop in Ft. Wilton. It contains two research notes which you can take. --The only respawning monsters in this game are the rabid rats in Fort Wilton's grain silo. So make sure you keep your items stored here. They will give you experience and may give you item drops that you can sell for a nice bit of cash. --Item drops are determined when you enter a zone. So when you enter, save the game. Then kill things and make a mental note of what drops a goodie. Then re-load the game and kill whichever monsters dropped something nice, then leave, heal, and come back. In particular, rogue thahds and spawners give nice drops. Spawners have a 75% chance each of dropping a lovely, beautiful crystal, and a gem. So make sure to use this trick in the Inner Mines. All spawners have a 75% chance of dropping one thorn, and a... 50% chance I think of dropping another one, so try to get at least one thorn from every specimen. Rogue Thahds have a 5% chance of dropping a platinum ring. Other enemies worth farming from are Rogue Drayks (gems), War Bred Serviles (acid thorns and gold rings), and servile cultists/casters (platinum rings) Rogue Battle Betas can drop either a carapace of chainmail, and battle gammas may drop an iron mail. BEWARE!! Any generic-named monster without a "rogue" before its name won't drop anything. E.g. Battle Beta instead of Rogue Battle Beta (which, in fact, is a unique case because the generic and rogue ones are completely different colors)

I apologize for all the drama. I was having some problems with insomnia (thus by extension, getting my meds taken at the same time each morning) I also have a history of getting modded, warned, etc. for stuff that I didn't even realize was a violation when I posted it, and in some cases, am unable to understand how it is a violation even after I am modded and it is explained to me. I... doubt I will be leaving, unfortunately, even though I really should be banned for the drama I've caused, trouble I've caused outside of this thread, and as a precaution because I always cause trouble and violate the ToS even when I try my hardest not to. As for what the posts included, I was bouncing off the walls about the idea of a Sholai trilogy of games that focus on exploration and include an overland map for naval exploration and combat. The class list was pretty generic, even moreso than the D&D classlist. THe classes went something like Mercenary + Swashbuckler (warriors), Explorer + Scout (thief-- similar to your ranger, except that rather than combat specialty, his/her strong points are misc skills such as nature lore, mechanics, diplomacy, and nautical lore, and the scout would be your archer + thief class), and mage + spiritist (thought spiritist would be good for the priest class since it could apply to clerics or shamans) Also mentioned a skill for seafaring called "Nautical Lore", which would also determine the damage/hit rate of cannons/harpoon guns/whatever the dragonship in G1 was blown up with. I was hoping that it would use the old skill system, similar to Geneforge but with maybe a couple of old-skill system Avernum skills thrown in for good measure (nature lore, maybe dual wielding, and a different division/set for magic skills than what we see in Geneforge, since obviously they're not going to use the same magic system)

Not really spoiler-worthy, but Alwan and Greta's personalities in this game are a bit different. Alwan is a foul-tempered ass (a lot of players hate Alwan in this game), Greta is a submissive, hypocritical bleeding heart, though she's also pretty mellow compared to later games. Oh, and Aura of Flames is ridiculously powerful. Also, don't disarm any of the mines at the Roamer Marsh, whatever you do. Misc note: There are four teachers at the Academy. Hoge, and based on the bodies, another shaper, and presumably a Guardian and an Agent (the other two bodies are of warriors, and the only corpse sprites back then were warrior, shaper, and servile) When you encounter the bodies of your teachers, there are giant rats around, presumably feeding on their corpses. Note that the timeline given in the game is inconsistent-- it is consistent up to Dhonal Iale, but as soon as you step on Gull Isle, you are given a much shorter one. It goes like this: Since the attack on the school, you have been traveling for.... Greenwood Isle: weeks Harmony Isle: weeks (w. the end of Harmony Isle stating that your adventure will continue for months) Dhonal Isle: months Gull isle: weeks Isle of Spears: ????/N/A/not given Note: don't read spoiler until you've left Fort Wilton. Also, true to her G4 personality, we see that Greta

Liability reasons? I don't understand... Well, that ruined my day, if not week. The very idea of such a game had me excited-- ecstatic. I really, really wanted to see this, to the point that anything else for a new series would have been a massive letdown for me. Man, this sucks so, so, so much... I feel like I shouldn't even be posting here... like there's no point... Plus I always step over the line... I hope I can get myself to leave...

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Seriously though, chill people, this is all very hypothetical. There is no more validity to this poll than any other public poll. It either is or isn't, no poll numbers can change this. It just rubbed me the wrong way, that he would just ignore all of the discussion. My meds wearing off for the night didn't help matters :\ So where do all three of these global powers fight? Are they all ripped from their planets and transported to some kind of Q-Bert planet or a 3-D chess board or what? That... we never did decide upon. Hence the argument early in the thread about whether or not magic functions the same way on different worlds (taking a page from the Ultima series, which was one of the primary inspirations for Jeff's games) Geneforge and Avadon you could at least pretend are on the same planet, since they're just continents. The Empire, however, spans the entire globe. This thread is much less interesting when it's arguments for "who would win?" than it is when it's a discussion of various factors that would play into the battles between the 3. They're one and the same.

Personally I think that happens AFTER you finish the academy. I.e. I don't consider the academy the equivalent of entering boot camp; I consider the last year of the academy equivalent to entering boot camp. So then you think that Guardians and Agents only receive training in combat, wilderness survival, hunting, etc. in their fourth year? That means that your character and Greta have had no combat training whatsoever (they have to be conditioned first, you know) Also, a lot of physical conditioning would be needed in order to wear armor. It's heavy. What I mean is that when Litalia attacked the academy in GF3, she didn't attack rookies and officer cadets. She attacked schoolkids that could not defend themselves. The attack on the academy is IMO an act of terror, equivalent of attacking a military highschool Sure about-to-graduate agents had the most basic battle magic and about-to-graduate shapers could (barely) make fyoras. That doesn't bring them to the level of people finishing basic training; far from it. You're comparing gameplay to story, which doesn't work (if we went by that, for example, then every PC mage would have to be at minimum in their late 20's if we go by A3.) Also, you'll note that three of the four teachers also fell to the rogues, so your argument that the students did not receive military basic doesn't follow. In all likelihood, they would have just barely-- JUST BARELY repelled the attack on the school had Hoge joined them-- and it's safe to presume that the other three teachers were close to Hoge's power at the time (Hoge hadn't used very many canisteters, yet, I'm skeptical that they increased his power much at all) As a note, don't take my arguments as competitive or something; I enjoy the discussion and value your opinion. If anything, I like how the world of Geneforge can sustain such discussions. As do I

You should read the comments as well. Just going by poll results is basically going by the bandwagon fallacy. Just saying. Also, I disagree with your pact analysis-- why would Redbeard journey all the way to Terrestria. Also, we decided that this would take place with each power at its peak-- Between A1/A2, between G2/G3, and during A1, so there would be no Geneforge in Terrestria for Redbeard to get his hands on at that point. Really, I have to say it's really annoying for you to come to this conclusion without even bothering to read the comments, because we've all done a LOT of in-depth analysis.

I am well aware of the age difference. Depending on the era and region, they could start as young as age 10. The Israelites and Medieval Arabs considered 13 to be the age of adulthood, so that was when boys were drafted into the war. Europe and the Middleast up until the 19thg or 20th century took slave soldiers as young as 8 or 9. In Japan, during some ages, in many areas, 14 was considered adulthood, and if they gained the needed skill with a sword, they gained their first katana at age 14, and would become samurai. Generally they would get a childrens' shortsword, such as a kodachi, at age 10 or 11. Prior to that, they would get a bamboo sword. 14yos still make for crappy soldiers, however-- largely due to having not even hit puberty yet. Those sex hormones, alone, have a significant effect on endurance. However, this is not a good comparison-- those eras were also rife with suffocating sexism-- even modern day sexism is not present in the SS games. More importantly, becoming a Shaper is a much bigger decision than becoming a squire or a soldier-- esp. since the Shapers are so secretive about their organization. They're not going to let some kid in to read the same materials that are considered fairly advanced at Outsider mage universities. (remember that in G3? "The Good Stuff" at the Dhonal public library was basically just the cantrips for Shapers) What I mean is that even if according to what we know now and the way we think now 16 seems too early to start... doesn't mean the shapers thought that way and shared the same opinion. It's not a matter of "think". The phys ed part is easily testable, and it would be quite easy for Shapers to tell the difference in mental facualties bet. 16 and 18yos by comparing the results of their entry exams. My point is that most videogame makers etc. place the age of adulthood and eligibility for joining the military at 18. One exception is Ultima 7: Serpent Gate, but that is only because Richard Garriott wanted to present the town she lived in as especially barbaric and backwards. In Britannia, the age for joining the military does appear to be 18. Yeah, it's a 20+ year old game, but the Ultima series is one of Jeff's main inspirations for his game plots and designs (hell, the Shades in A4 are almost directly ripped off from the Shadowlords in U5, main difference is their origins and the fact that the A4 Shades don't zap you into an alternate prison dimension when they attack you. Not that I'm complaining It's almost like an easter egg if you're an Ultima fan.) A lot of them place the drinking age at 20 or 21 as well-- or at 18 at the very least (one exception is the JRPG Chrono Trigger, where the protagonist is around 16 and had a beer drinking contest with an 18 or 20yo woman who wouldn't give him an item that he needed unless he drank her under the table... granted, he was in 65 million BC when this took place...) If you want something more material, none of the protagonists in the Avernum series look like they're younger than 18. In fact, they all look like they're in their 20's to me.

Well, if we assume that the academy starts at 16 instead of 18, and that it's 4 years because it includes the necessary brainwashing (which is easier done in younger ages), Alwan would be 19-20 in the start of GF3. Seems unlikely that it would begin at age 16. The academy consists of a combination of rigorous study, mental conditioning/discipline, and military school. The physical ed/coditioning would require that a student be at their peak performance, which means age 18~24-- 16yos cannot perform physically at anywhere near the level of an 18yo, esp. for boys, who are still in the middle of puberty. Also, the impulse control center parts of the brain are much too immature in a 16yo, and still pretty bad in 17yo's. Less than 8 hours of sleep also has more detrimental effects on those under 18, and to my understanding, basic/boot camp only allows you have 6 hours of sleep (10 PM to 5 AM)

When the planets are formed (and early in their life when they're mostly molten), the heavier elements sink to the bottom. Granted, the mantle and core are still composed predominantly of nickeliron (the core moreso than the mantle, which has more water and silicon in it) Also, I'm pretty sure that Avernum is more than just a "few miles" underground. Hell, the portal in the Fort Emergence region is probably more than a couple miles underground (Fort Emergence itself would be just below the surface) Avernum is much more volcanically active than the surface, per square mile, and both the Slith and the Vahnatai evolved to inhabit areas warmed by strong geothermal activity (which IIRC usually means that the mantle is only around 5~10 miles below the surface, like at Yellowstone or in submarine breaks in the mantle. Compare that to the terrestrial average of 30~50.)

GF5 should be 11-12 years after the start of GF3 and 10-11 after its end Yes, but therein lies another problem. The timeline in GF3 is inconsistent as soon as you land on Gull Island. The timeline given from Greenwood to the end of Dhonal Isle is that both Greenwood and Harmony (in their entirety) take place "weeks" after the attack on the school, and Dhonal Isle takes place "months" after the attack (with Lord Rahul learning of the attack on the school and General Greiner going nutso only weeks earlier). However, as soon as you enter Stonespire, the amount of time passed "since the rebellion began" l is merely "weeks", and once you land on The Isle of Spears, the amount of time since the game started is not mentioned at all-- as far as I can recall, anyhow. The change cannot be implying that the rebellion took place on Gull Isle much later than on other Islands, because we learn that Gull Island is where it all began. Speaking of Litalia's unreliability, Greta's story changes as well.

I.e. while Shapers may spend years after academy in menial tasks and then advanced training, I think that for Guardians it is academy, service\training (like squires) for a couple of years and then at your 21-22 you are a low-rank Guardian. I think that all three classes spend the same amount of time at the academy, and the introductory dialogue states that Alwan (unlike you) is about to be initiated, so he would already be 21~22 in G3, assuming that students join the academy at age 18. (The fact that he is about to be initiated while you are not probably means that the G3 protagonist is a year younger than he is. Greta is probably the same age or a year younger than the protagonist-- she can't possibly be Alwan's age since she has "received less formal training" than the protagonist) It also seems logical that the first year of schooling would consist purely of studying and bootcamp without even beginning shaping or spellcasting. Agents apparently go through several years of study as well. Honestly, I cannot picture the academy training taking less than 3 years for all three sects, even with the level of intense study they do. Consider that the minimal training for a guardian consists of 1 year of military basic + intense studying, then on top of that is the training of mental discipline (including 1 month of SERE-- wiki it if you don't know what it is), shaper law, shaper history, learning such skills as the use of living tools, very introductory spellcasting, introductory blacksmithing and leatherworking (mostly just maintenance and repairs), a moderate degree of shaping, various regulations and safety protocols for heavy machinery and toxic environments, military first aid, different battle formations and group tactics (including roleplays, like they do in the military IRL, and a lot of weapons/combat training. Now, the shaper law, shaper history, military basic, military first-aid, and introductory level mental disciplines would be first-year stuff, as would likely be leatherworking (and sewing obviously). Looking at IRL military, Shaper military basic would likely take an average of 4 months worth of training. That's on top of intense study, which cuts down on available hours, so we're probably talking a full year of military basic, and military first aid would be included in that, as would education of battle formations and military tactics. Every other subject mentioned (along with more mental and weapons training) would be second year or later. And yes, I also assumed that for Guardians, the menial tasks period would consist of service training, guard patrols at the outskirts of or outside of towns, giant rat hunting, low level bodyguards/security, weapons/armor repair and maybe blacksmithing (esp. at a military camp), secretarial work at a military camp, loading and unloading the wagons at a military camp, things like that, and that this period of education would be reduced by a year or two for Alwan after the events of G3. And, for comparison, I think the education for Agents would be based more on diplomacy, mechanics, spellcasting, obviously, stealth, sharpshooting, wilderness survival (including SERE-- this part of the education, alone would cover a lot of subcategories, such as spelunking, botany, camouflage, scent masking, wound ID, wilderness first aid, skinning, ), shaper regulations, leatherworking and maintenance (part of wilderness survival), sewing, more emphasis on creation tracking/hunting than the other two sects (wilderness survival, again) Also more emphasis on shaper law and regulations (in comparison, Guardians get very little education in this category as evidenced by a dummied convo with Alwan at the Harmony East Docks-- though that's not saying much (z15eastdockdlg.txt in Program Files x 86 > Geneforge 3 > Scripts if you're interested in reading it. It mostly consists of Alwan whining about no one being present to order him around, taking it out on Greta, ands indirectly asking for reassurance-- you know, so he doesn't look "unmanly" and "weak" or whatever his absurd perception is) Shaper education would be so extensive that they probably have to choose one or two areas to specialize in at the beginning of their second year, such as Shaper mechanics/chemistry/alchemy (vats, purification plants, crystal spirals, things of that nature), Shaper law and regulations, battle mage/shaper, healingcraft and medicine, mineralogy/crystal forging, mineralogy/metallurgy, biochemistry/botany/herbalism/plant & fungi shaping and augmentation, biochemistry/animal/creation shaping and augmentation, or creation veterinarian.

Litalia's narratives about her past in different games, conflict with each other. The basic story is similar but the dates they suggest are different. As a result, she is not the most reliable source for dating. The description of Alwan and Greta being in their early 30's would suggest 10 years bet. the end of G3 and beginning of G4. Also, I don't think 7 years is enough education for Alwan to become a general or gain any sort of influence at all, since in G1, we're told that after the schooling, that Shapers must then undergo 5 years of some menial training as assistants to alchemists, herbalists, living tool breeders, and the like. Then we're told in G2 that they return to a few more years of schooling. That's in addition to the remainder of schooling that Alwan had to finish for the year that the school got attacked (probably anywhere from 4 to 8 months worth) This would give him very little time to climb the shaper ladder. Hell, even at 10~11 years after the events in G3, that gives Alwan very little time to rise in the ranks. It also means that Diwaniya and Litalia could not be "only slightly older" than the G3 protagonist. So the education goes something like this: 4 (presumably) years in the academy 5 years of menial training ?? years (prob. 2~4) of advanced training Looking at this, in all likelihood, full shaper education probably takes 12 years altogether. But then, maybe Alwan got to skip a few years due to his exceptional experience on the field, who knows.

They don't need to. Also, I think that perhaps Jeff underestimates just how much iron is on the surface of the earth's crust. Seriously, there is a lot of it.

The mantle consists primarily of nickel iron, which is responsible for the Earth's magnetic poles. Aluminum is also somewhat abundant (though it's that way on the surface, as well). The iron ores would consist primarily of magnetite and pyrite, while the aluminum would be in the form of pyroxenes. Precious metals, lead, and tin are much less common.