Are Drakons superior beings?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

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Once again, Emperor, please provide a shred of evidence which demonstrates that Drakon's do not have an appreciation for art.

The serviles that built Northforge, as Diki pointed out, left space for art in the walls. The drakons have had plenty of time to ignore the war and have petty political squabbles while the rebellion crumbles (Southforge), but they don't seem to have any need or desire to fill those walls with art. Barzahl, on the other hand, in the midst of complete chaos in Drypeak, built eleborate structures filled with extraneous art, which are still being built when you arrive (see Radient College description).

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It's not a huge stretch to conclude that given their remarkable similiarites to humans, they can experience an appreciation for art.

So the things I say aren't logically reasonable, but you're fine with this nonsense? Besides, you're not claiming that their similar, you're claiming that they are superior. Where is your evidence (or reasoning, I'm fine with either) that they are superior?

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The game suggests that Drakons do indeed have innate Shaping abilities. Canister usage is not required, so it seems quite reasonable to assume that Drakons are created with the ability to Shape.

Where does it say this? Or is this more made up stuff?

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They have... creative genius.

You can complain that my claims are unsupported when you support your own.

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Technically, the Shapers are no longer humans,

More garbage from an Emp doppleganger.

I never said that, don't put words in my mouth.

Thuryl, I'd be interested to see where it says that. Even if it is true, that would mean they still did not initially have shaping abilities (their glorious creator, Barzahl (mere human), decided not to bless them with it). They could have given it to themselves, sure, but humans could too, if they chose. The Shapers simply choose not to (foolish if you ask me) but hey, they're still beating the drakons in the war.

[Sudanna]

Look, a Drakon vs. Human fight depends on the Drakon, and depends on the human. Drakons are fearsome, yes, but late in-game you can bowl them over like so many kindergarteners by yourself.

 

And, Waylander, your "evidence" has no bearing if their isn't anything supporting it in-game. These are games we are debating! Games! We may take them to a deep psychological and moral level, but they are games! Do not make any assumptions unless they are backed in-game!

 

And ET, quite a few humans are incapable of love, compassion, or art. Drakons may be entirely incapable of it as a race, but that doesn't make any human automatically superior.

 

All in all, the superiority depends on the individual human and the individual drakon.

[Slawbug]

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Originally written by Thuryl:

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
but at least they aren't factually untrue (like drakon have innate shaping abilites

Actually, I think there's a case to be made for this. Isn't there a reference somewhere to Ghaldring being "the first drakon with the ability to Shape"? This must refer to innate Shaping ability rather than Shaping ability as such, since Ghaldring himself was Shaped by Easss.

I thought I remembered that reference, too. But grep dug up only about 50 references to Easss Shaping Ghaldring.

I think what we're thinking of is that drakons were the first creation with the ability to Shape.

AHA! GREP TO THE RESCUE!

Issss-Ta the Drayk says:
"No Shaper, that is for sure. I was made by Easss, the first drakon who could shape, the creator of Ghaldring. No, Ghaldring was not the first drakon who could Shape, whatever he is claiming now."

[Sudanna]

Either way, this is a pointless debate. Vlish are the superior life forms. If you disagree, it's because they're manipulating your mind for their amusement.

[Enraged Slith]

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Either way, this is a pointless debate. Vlish are the superior life forms. If you disagree, it's because they're manipulating your mind for their amusement.

I fear for our women.

[Lord Safey]

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Originally written by Waylander:
Safey:

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Humans are superiour to drakons because we get a long with each other .

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! You've really made my day with that little zinger.

Humans get can along with each other? That explains the rogue Shapers, and the HUMAN half of the Rebellion.

True humans are not perfect but compared to the drakons they get along extremly well. I have yet to speak with a non drakon who said something postive about their interworkings. Yet I meet lots of people who give the shapers high praise. A lite match is cold compared too a rageing forest fire.

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Originally written by Waylander:
I just don't understand how anyone can deny Drakon superiority. The Drakons are the only ones in the game who have a clue about tearing the Shapers a new *******. If there were two continents of Drakons, I'm sure they would eat the Shapers for breakfast, and have room for dessert.

No wonder the Drakons are so arrogant, with a superiority complex. The fact of the matter is: They are superior.

Their arrogance is what makes them weak. Arrogance has crushed might empires and turn the tide against overwhemling odds. Thats why the rebellion had so much initial success. Though the shapers learned from the arrogance I have yet to see drakons learn from theirs. The wiser drakons are just merely over confident.

[Suspicious Vlish]

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The serviles that built Northforge, as Diki pointed out, left space for art in the walls. The drakons have had plenty of time to ignore the war and have petty political squabbles while the rebellion crumbles (Southforge),

So you're suggesting that since the Drakons don't give artwork priority over fighting a war and maintaining a stable, functional rebellion, they musn't have any appreciation for art?

Huh?

Although may I point out that the Shaping of creations could be seen as artwork, even though its primary purpose may be for warfare?

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but they don't seem to have any need or desire to fill those walls with art.

Or perhaps they have their priorities straight. Saving their species and the Rebellion first, and hang pretty pictures later. I doubt Hitler had much time for paintings when he engaged on his mission to conquer Europe, despite the fact that he initially desired to be an artist.

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Barzahl, on the other hand, in the midst of complete chaos in Drypeak,

Complete chaos? Huh? For years, Barzhal pretty much had an informal truce with the other three sects.

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Originally Posted By: Waylander

It's not a huge stretch to conclude that given their remarkable similiarites to humans, they can experience an appreciation for art.

So the things I say aren't logically reasonable, but you're fine with this nonsense?

How is it nonsense? If, like humans, Drakons possess sentience, sapience and introspection, it isn't a far stretch to deduce that they are capable of emotion.

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Besides, you're not claiming that their similar, you're claiming that they are superior.

It looks like you're grappling with this concept, so allow me to explain. Being 'similiar' to someone in some aspects, and being superior to them in general, are not mutually exclusive. Chimpanzees are similiar to humans in many aspects (tool making, social structure, morphology), but I doubt anyone would deny that human beings are superior.

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Where is your evidence (or reasoning, I'm fine with either) that they are superior?

Hmm, let's see:

1. Drakons have been demonstrated to be better Shapers than the Shapers themselves. Oh, and if you're looking for evidence, try replaying the entire series.

2. Drakons are born physically superior to humans. I'm not talking 'polar bear vs. human', I'm talking more along the lines of an electric train vs. a human. They also have the innate ability to spout gouts of fire which are far more damaging than any 'learned' human spell.

3. Drakons have demonstrated themselves to be far more intelligent and creative than Shapers, due to the mere fact that they have made extraordinary progress in the field of Shaping in a only a few decades.

It's clear that Drakons are to humans as humans are to chimpanzees.

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They have... creative genius.

You can complain that my claims are unsupported when you support your own.


Jeez, you must have been asleep when playing the latter portions of GF2, GF3, and GF4. Because if I remember correctly, Drakons are masters at molding new creations. If that's not creative genius, then what the hell is?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

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Or perhaps they have their priorities straight. Saving their species and the Rebellion first, and hang pretty pictures later.

Yeah, but they're not doing either. As I said in my last post, the drakon high command is more intent on concerning itself with bickering amongst each other rather than fixing the almost defunct rebellion.

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Complete chaos? Huh? For years, Barzhal pretty much had an informal truce with the other three sects.

He is still building these things when you visit them (during chaos).

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If, like humans, Drakons possess sentience, sapience and introspection, it isn't a far stretch to deduce that they are capable of emotion.

Who are you to say that this isn't a stretch? How many other sapient species besides humans do you know of?

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Drakons have been demonstrated to be better Shapers than the Shapers themselves. Oh, and if you're looking for evidence, try replaying the entire series.

In the series I played, humans invented the canisters and geneforge. They also created the drakons themselves, rotgroths, eyebeasts, and... oh... every single other creation in the game.

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Drakons are born physically superior to humans. I'm not talking 'polar bear vs. human', I'm talking more along the lines of an electric train vs. a human. They also have the innate ability to spout gouts of fire which are far more damaging than any 'learned' human spell.

Yes, humans certainly did do an excellent job when they designed them, I'll give them that.

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Drakons have demonstrated themselves to be far more intelligent and creative than Shapers, due to the mere fact that they have made extraordinary progress in the field of Shaping in a only a few decades.

This is all rebel propaganda. The rebellion can do almost nothing that the shapers didn't do first. Sure, they advanced to the same level as humans in record time, but they used stolen knowledge, and they had to be taught it by Zachary and Barzahl personally.

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Jeez, you must have been asleep when playing the latter portions of GF2, GF3, and GF4. Because if I remember correctly, Drakons are masters at molding new creations. If that's not creative genius, then what the hell is?

As I said before, humans are responsible for all new creations. Name one thing the drakons have contributed at all.

[Stillness]

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

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Originally written by Stillness:
not all drakons suffer from the same extreme pride that gives some of them a warped view of things

Yes they do.

It didn't seem to me that ghaldring and the drakon you meet outside the gates that can serve as your second to get the key were as arrogant. Certainly not models of humility, but they seemed a bit more reserved and pensive. They also both recognize that humans have their place. They weren't insane or animalistic as some in this thread have claimed.

Also the humans in the game tend to be arrogant as well. That's why even some of the rebel serviles are jumpy around you. They still are not treated with equality by rebel humans. It should also be noted that no one in the game, human or otherwise, "creates" or "makes" other forms of life in the biblical sense. God makes or creates something from nothing. He is superior because he is the Creator. The term "shaping" is fitting as already existing forms of life are altered. It makes the relationship between shaper and shaped more like parent/child, as someone (one of the serviles i think) so aptly points out in Game 3. Even though the child comes from the parent and owes it's existence to actions of the parent, the parent does not hold a godlike role and is certainly not superior.

[Enraged Slith]

You forget, that information is from a servile. If you give one an inch and it'll take a mile. That one is obviously dilusional from too many rations and a lack of authority.

[Stillness]

I don't think this discussion is going to go far unless superior is defined - unless you all are just having fun bickering. In which case you shouldn't define it as you might actually resolve the issue. I personally don't see any substantial difference between the two that would lead me to say one is superior.

 

NOTE: IGNORE THIS IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE BICKERING.

 

superior (adj)

2: of higher rank, quality, or importance

 

I think this is the definition we want, in particular the quality part. So when you say one is superior to the other, what you're saying is that one is of higher quality. And if you say that one is higher quality you still have to be more specific.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Nalyd, Stillness, if you haven't noticed, we're making up the definition as we go along. We have been going into detail of the many aspects that we think makes a superior being, so so far we've agreed on that much, at least. If you have a problem with the qualities of 'superior' we've come up with so far, please be more specific than a generic dictionary definition that doesn't help at all.

[Stillness]

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Originally written by Enraged Slith:
You forget, that information is from a servile. If you give one an inch and it'll take a mile. That one is obviously dilusional from too many rations and a lack of authority.

Funny. Like good comedy it rings true to life. That is the way an oppressor thinks. As a decendant of slaves who were thought to be "inferior" (and still are by some) I always feel a bit of kinship to serviles, and even to some extent to drakons. I was very happy to be able to take the role of a free servile this game. I know firsthand the psycological difficulty that can come from forced servitude. Even after one is set free bodily, the mind has trouble catching up. I even have an arrogant, militant uncle that believes our "race" is superior to the one that formerly enslaved us. I reckon that this is why the Genefoge series is so endearing - it mirrors reality so well.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

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He is still building these things when you visit them (during chaos).

I'm too lazy to look it up, so will you post the section that says it's still being built during the chaos and not put on hold or completely finished during that time? (It still doesn't prove that they would worry about art during a war against the Shapers, though.)

 

Dikiyoba.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Nalyd, Stillness, if you haven't noticed, we're making up the definition as we go along. We have been going into detail of the many aspects that we think makes a superior being, so so far we've agreed on that much, at least. If you have a problem with the qualities of 'superior' we've come up with so far, please be more specific than a generic dictionary definition that doesn't help at all.

It doesn't help because you don't want help. You want to argue - which is cool as long as you're having fun. I am. I'm procrastinating from very important real life stuf by engaging in a debate over fictional characters in a video game.

My position is this: Neither drakons nor humans are superior. They both have their unique strengths and weaknesses. Even with those it is difficult to compare because Drakons are a young race.

[Delicious Vlish]

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Originally written by Nalyd The Dead:
Either way, this is a pointless debate. Vlish are the superior life forms. If you disagree, it's because they're manipulating your mind for their amusement.

You are correct.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Hmm, the best I can come up with would be, when refering to the buildings on the North Rising Road (which include the entrance to the Radient College, one of their most elaborate peices of art) they are described as such: "They look recently built, probably by heavy creation labor." I'm not certain whether or not this implies they are all finished. Just looking at the College gates, the little guard posts outside appear only half done. Also there is the matter of 'recently.' How long had their been hostility between the factions before you arrived?

[Suspicious Vlish]

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Yeah, but they're not doing either. As I said in my last post, the drakon high command is more intent on concerning itself with bickering amongst each other rather than fixing the almost defunct rebellion.

Well no, that's just hyperbole. While there were a couple of rogue Drakons who rebelled against the hierarchy, in general the Drakons seemed to cooperate as a cohesive whole. They were expending effort into fighting the Shapers (witness the Unbound).

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He is still building these things when you visit them (during chaos).

'These things'? What exactly do you mean by that? Do roads and buildings which serve a practical purpose qualify as 'art' now? If so, then the Takers and the Rebellion have produced a lot of 'art'.

Tell me, do you think that France would have constructed the Statue of Liberty if they had been in the middle of fighting WWI?

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Who are you to say that this isn't a stretch? How many other sapient species besides humans do you know of?

Given that humans are the only known sapient species, it makes perfect sense to use them as a baseline. A Drakon's behaviourism, IQ and EQ apparently resembles that of a human, hence the evidence suggests that they can feel emotion.

Another line of evidence is that Drayks clearly demonstrate empathy for other beings. Given that Drakons are merely improved version of Drayks, it stands to reason that they are likely to have the capacity to experience emotion.

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In the series I played, humans invented the canisters and geneforge.

Which were very crude. The Takers, and the Drakons, made vast improvements.

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They also created the drakons themselves,

Again, the Drakons are far more apt at creating Drakons that their human counterparts.

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rotgroths,

The Taker rotgroths were superior to the human (Barzite) rotgroths, as even the Barzite in the Radiant College mentioned.

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eyebeasts,

Barzhal conceived the idea of the eyebeast, but he wasn't the first to create one. It was the Taker Drakons who first created an eyebeast.

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and... oh... every single other creation in the game.

Well, no. There are numerous creations which the Drakons have vastly improved on. I thought you would have come to realize this as you hacked your way through the Taker/Rebel dumping grounds.

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This is all rebel propaganda. The rebellion can do almost nothing that the shapers didn't do first.

A computer hasn't done anything which a human hasn't done first. I guess the fact that a computer performs all of these tasks with far greater calculation power and efficiency doesn't come into the equation...

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As I said before, humans are responsible for all new creations.

You just keep telling yourself that. All those variations which have come out of the Drakon labs and into the dumping grounds don't exist...

[Stillness]

Drakons definitely appreciate art, or else why would they build space for it. Drakons are listed before serviles as the ones responsible for Northforge. They certainly are the dominant of the two races. If they didn't appreciate art, there would be no room for it in the complex that they built and run. That's a no-brainer. The fact that they have a complex that no human has touched is a testament to their intelligence.

 

Although it would seem that Drakons are physically stronger, they seem to lack the agility of humans. Think about your battles with drakons and people. Are the Drakons really any harder to kill? I don't think so. As far as spells v. Drakon fire, I havent noticed their fire hitting harder than spells. Are they capable of battle, mental, or blessing magic? They don't seem capable of magic to the same extent as humans. The fact that they have made advances in shaping might be due to the fact that they face the risk of extinction. Necessity is the mother of invention. Also, they don't have the same self-imposed boundaries that the shapers have. Someone mentioned the Nazis in this thread - they made discoveries and scientific advances beyond their contemporaries because they had great disregard for the sanctity of life.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Stillness:

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Although it would seem that Drakons are physically stronger, they seem to lack the agility of humans.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I agree that Drakon claws are far clumsier than human/servile hands (it's actually mentioned in GF2 that Drayks have clumsy handwriting), but Drakons move as fast as a human, if not faster (they have 8 AP, Quick Action, and always seem to strike me first in battle...)

 

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Think about your battles with drakons and people. Are the Drakons really any harder to kill?

In general, yes. However, I did find Monarch harder than any Drakon. But I'd attribute that to the fact that Monarch is found far earlier in the game, when your PC is 'greener'. By the end, I had several of my own Drakons to fight the opposing Drakons...

 

While it is possible for humans to match Drakons in strength and speed, they usually have to be Shaped to the Max, or a Master Master Shaper with, with apparently centuries of experience and some nice equipment.

 

Either way, an unexperienced Drakon is far more powerful than an unexperienced human. Analogy: A woman, with adequate training, could easily overpower the average male. However, that doesn't change the fact that men have more innate physical power than women.

 

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As far as spells v. Drakon fire, I havent noticed their fire hitting harder than spells.

I tend to play on Torment, and have noticed that since GF2, their breath spells rip me a new *******. They seem to be more lethal that the average spell casting human.

 

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they capable of battle, mental, or blessing magic? They don't seem capable of magic to the same extent as humans.

I remember that several Drayks in the series have the ability to cast spells. In fact, a Drayk in the Rebel Stronghold goes out of his way to teach you. A Cryodrayk (Salassdar?) in GF 2 also teaches you powerful spells (if you are a Taker).

 

As Drakons are merely improved Drayks, it stands to reason that they are capable of spell casting. They just don't bother, since teeth and their fiery breath pretty much do the job.

 

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The fact that they have made advances in shaping might be due to the fact that they face the risk of extinction.

I'm sure that the risk of extinction, and an upcoming war with the Shapers, were driving factors which catalyzed their Shaping advancement. But that doesn't somehow cheapen their achievements.

 

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Also, they don't have the same self-imposed boundaries that the shapers have.

True. But they still kick ass.

[tridash]

The Drakons have essentially been using much more advanced technology than the Shapers - this has to balance out any difference in resources.

 

In G1, the Shapers had the same microscope technology as the Drakons, anyway.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

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'These things'? What exactly do you mean by that?

Well, if I have to repeat myself, again, I was talking about the entrance to the Radient College, which is described as being overly eleborate. Barzahl, from the moment he arrived in Drypeak, was preparing for his inevitible war with the Shapers. While preparing, he still made time for art.

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A Drakon's behaviourism, IQ and EQ apparently resembles that of a human

No they don't, not at all. What makes you say that?

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Another line of evidence is that Drayks clearly demonstrate empathy for other beings.

No they don't. Drayks and serviles constantly complain that the drakons care little for either race.

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Given that Drakons are merely improved version of Drayks, it stands to reason that they are likely to have the capacity to experience emotion.

Again, no. Usually, when anything is improved by shaping, emotion is the first thing to go.

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The Takers, and the Drakons, made vast improvements [on the canisters and geneforge].

Will your inaccuracies ever stop? How were canisters improved? They were the same damn things. As for the geneforge, the original human geneforge made you character (or Trajkov or Goettsch) into a demi-god, the drakon geneforges merely make them into ur-drakons. They clearly make inferior geneforges.

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Again, the Drakons are far more apt at creating Drakons that their human counterparts.

Seeing as how it is not the drakons' goal to control these creations, or any creations for that matter, they are able to make stronger creations in general, yes. However, when humans abandon the need to control creations, like Shaper Monarch did, they make the most powerful creations ever seen: the Titan.

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Barzhal conceived the idea of the eyebeast, but he wasn't the first to create one.

Does it say this somewhere?

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There are numerous creations which the Drakons have vastly improved on.

Anyone can create (and people like Barzahl and Monarch regularly do) horrible, mutant, overpowered creations. If we're going to argue on the point of creation strength rather than actual design (humans came up with the initial design for all creations) then we need to think of the most powerful creations. So far, these would be the things that Monarch, a human, made.

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Stillness:
Drakons are listed before serviles as the ones responsible for Northforge.

Do you really think the drakons actually helped build the places they live in? Serviles do all that work, drakons, at the most, oversee. Who knows, they could have intended the serviles to eventually make the art for the walls as well.

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The fact that they have a complex that no human has touched is a testament to their intelligence.

Is the fact that a parrot can mimic human speech a testiment to their intelligence? Everything the drakons know, they learned from Zachary and Barzahl. They may make some improvements now and then, but they were nothing but crappy drayks on Sucia before they were helped by humans.

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Waylander:
Either way, an unexperienced Drakon is far more powerful than an unexperienced human.

We're back to the polar bear argument. Are polar bears superior beings?

[Dreadknight]

Alright, this is what I think. They're both superior in their own ways. I'll list them.

 

Drakon: War, Battle, Arrogance

Humans: Everything Else

 

That's why Humans are considered superior. The Drakons are only superior in battle and arrogance. In everything else the human is superior. It's like comparing the weapon and the user: the weapon is useless for anything but battleing.

[Xaiya]

I'm starting to think that Dreadknight is an oldbie who made a new account.

Edit -humans and I are superior to Drakons, bunnies, muffins, and Nalyd.

[Retlaw May]

Ok, I've been out for a while so there was a lot to read so excuse me if there is something here that has been mentioned before or something of the like.

 

God help me, but I'm going to have to go with ET on this. Waylander, I sometimes wonder if you have even ever played through a game as a loyalist, let alone a non-canister loyalist. I seem to remember you arguing that serviles aren't inferior just because Shapers made them to be inferior; so how can you argue the opposite with the Drakons? Even putting that asside, have you noticed what the Drakons are even doing? Their "advances" are just willingness to let loose uncontroled creations over the countryside, killing anything that gets in the way (see Monarch).

You talk of Drakons as poor underdogs, but (in the experience in the games which is all you can truly base anything off of) I see MANY more Drakons that Shapers. I mean really, have you ever seen a patrol of a dozen Shaper? You or someone else also sited one or two Drakons who didn't seem completely insane or having some introspection, but this just doesn't do... I see a couple humans that are fricken insane, but I don't base the race off of them; I base it off the majority.

I imagine Drakons basically as time bombs or Kamakazis: yeah you can take out several people, but you get blown up in the process. I think I have more to add but I know that people skim extremely long posts and I'll wait for you to attempt to flame me.

[Xaiya]

Gah!

Space out your "paragraphs" when you make long posts because otherwise it is a bright screen with a glob of symbols.

I can still read it but I have to concentrate.

[Sudanna]

IFM-

Quote:

Edit -humans and I are superior to Drakons, bunnies, muffins, and Nalyd.

Pull that again and Nalyd will go all TM on your ass.

 

If Waylander had posted again after ET counteracted him, this post might have a redeeming point. Ah, well, can't be perfect.

[Xaiya]

Quote:

Originaly by Nalyd the Dead
Pull that again and Nalyd will go all TM on your ass.

What do you mean by that?

[Sudanna]

Terror's Martyr is a banned oldbie known for his troll-flaming.

[Xaiya]

Well, I will stop so that I don't sink to your level...

 

...just kiding. No TMing anyones ***.

[Suspicious Vlish]

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Well, if I have to repeat myself, again, I was talking about the entrance to the Radient College, which is described as being overly eleborate. Barzahl, from the moment he arrived in Drypeak, was preparing for his inevitible war with the Shapers. While preparing, he still made time for art.

I'm hesitate to qualify that as artwork. If 'elaborate' buildings used for practical purposes qualify as artwork, may I point out that the Drakon Council room in GF4 was described as 'luxurious'? Also note that Drakons have a tendency to wear jewelery. This strongly suggests that they are aesthetic beings.

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[A Drakon's behaviourism, IQ and EQ apparently resembles that of a human: No they don't, not at all. What makes you say that?

The question here is: What Drakon behaviourisms differ from lesser beings? Drakons, like humans, communicate and function socially in a manner similiar to humans. Drakons, like humans, have a complex political structure, including the cloak and dagger scheming. Drakons, like humans, are capable of arrogance, fear, love (suggested by the fact that they do breed naturally, instead of always Shaping new Drakons) and empathy.

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No they don't. Drayks and serviles constantly complain that the drakons care little for either race.

Then why would Ghaldring mention that he would use the Unbound to shelter the Rebel creations/humans in the mountains? If he had no empathy for the lesser races, why would he make such an irrelevant comment?

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Again, no. Usually, when anything is improved by shaping, emotion is the first thing to go.

It's been demonstrated time and time again that individuals who are Shaped are still capable of empathy (Lilita, Trajkov). Ghaldring (and his fellow drakons) also show empathy and respect towards his fallen rival.

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Will your inaccuracies ever stop? How were canisters improved? They were the same damn things.

Aura of Flames canisters were not present in GF1...

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As for the geneforge, the original human geneforge made you character (or Trajkov or Goettsch) into a demi-god,

Not really. It increased all of your stats by 7.

[quote
the drakon geneforges merely make them into ur-drakons.

Ur-Drakons are significantly superior to Drakons. After using the Geneforge, Easss and Akhari Blaze are exceedingly powerful.

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However, when humans abandon the need to control creations, like Shaper Monarch did, they make the most powerful creations ever seen: the Titan.

I didn't find the Titan that difficult, when compared to some of the creations in the Taker/Rebel dumping grounds.

May I also point out the Unbound. Not only can the Drakons create such magnificent beings, they also have some measure of control over them. In fact, Drakons are the only creations capable of controlling and directing the Unbound.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Waylander

Barzhal conceived the idea of the eyebeast, but he wasn't the first to create one.

Does it say this somewhere?

Yep, in the Radiant College.

[-silver-]

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Again, no. It's been demonstrated time and time again that individuals who are Shaped are still capable of empathy (Lilita, Trajkov). Try again.

rare exceptions, and noted as such.

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So Aura of Flames canisters were present in GF1? And Kill canisters?

there were canisters for every spell present in the game. there still are. it's like comparing a cd with version 1 of some software to a cd with version 2 of the program and saying, "wow, cds have gotten better".

arguably, the introduction of canister side-effects in geneforge 2 means that the canister technology has gotten noticably worse. (but in actuality probably represents JV making the game closer represent his original vision).

[Retlaw May]

Ahhh, Waylander you did not adress any of my points! (I'm the last post on page 3). Or maybe you just fear the blinding light of truth in your bubble.

[Questionmarks.]

Drakonsss are superior beingsss,i have changed my mind,we will stay arrogant,and powerful.

Long live the rebellion! long live Akhari Blaze,warmaster Kariss,Ghaldring,and the rest...if i missed any...but yeah.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Yes, we are superior beings. But that doesn't necessarily mean we need to exclude the lesser races. What they do need to realize is that WE are at the top of the pecking order...

[Suspicious Vlish]

By the way, I wonder if the posters here who condemn the Drakons for unleashing the Unbound support America's nuclear bombing of Japan, or the indiscriminate napalming of the Vietnamese forests? What about the indiscriminate bombing of German cities during WWII?

 

What about Israel's devastation of Lebanon? I know that quite a few posters here are Zionists, and use the "Well, Israel is under constant attack from enemies who want to destroy her, and annihilate the Jewish people!" as justification for excessive force against the neighbouring Arabs.

 

Hmmm, when your very right to exist is in question, it seems that acts of gross and excessive violence are quite OK. You'd have to be an idiot to promote limited warfare when not just your very way of life, but the survival of your species, is on the line.

 

Quite simply, I take great delight in releasing the Unbound for the Drakons, to rip the Shapers and their weak allies from the face of the earth. The decadent Shapers and their miserable allies get exactly what has been coming to them all along... decimation.

 

How dare they deny such mighty and glorious creations such as the Drayk, Eyebeast and Drakon the very right to exist! Because they are... too potentially dangerous...

 

That's absurd. Would you round up and genocide all of the mutants in the 'X-Men' world because their powers made them potentially dangerous? How is such a solution any more ethical than the Drakons releasing the Unbound on the Shapers and their sympathizers?

 

And by what right do the Shapers demand the genocide of a species? Was their a plebiscite to determine whether humans should parley with Drakons? Are the Shapers the democratically elected representatives of the humans and the creations?

 

No, they aren't. They are essentially an aristocracy who maintains power by monopolizing Shaper knowledge. Why should only their opinions matter when it comes to Shaping?

Does only a doctor's opinion matter when it comes to political decisions about the status of Healthcare? Does only a scientist's opinion matter when it comes to political decisions about scientific issues (global warming?).

 

Quite the contrary! In fact, scientific and medical bodies are often regulated by people separate from the field.

I don't see that in Geneforge. What I see is the Shapers monopolizing a mighty craft, when they have no right to do so.

 

Just a thought for the people who condemn the Drakons as 'war mongers'. I disagree.

 

As the (now adapted) old saying goes: "The Drakons make establishing peace difficult, but the Shapers make it impossible." Had the Shapers merely allowed the Drayks and Drakons the right to exist, and the serviles the right to autonomy, then there would be no need for warfare.

 

However, as the matter stands, the Drakons/Drayks need to fight for survival, and now that the serviles realize that they can function as autonomous beings, they can no longer remain in servitude. They must throw off their chains.

 

Quite simply, their hand is forced. The only other options (apart from releasing the Unbound) for the Drakons and Drayks is to (literally) commit suicide, or refuse to release the Unbound and commit metaphorical suicide as the Shapers continue their genocide.

 

Remember, the construction and releasing of the Unbound is ESSENTIAL for the survival of the Rebellion, and hence the Drakon and Drayk species. The Drakons know this, and every ending in which the Unbound are not released involves the smashing of the resistance, and the genocide of the Drayks, Drakons, and free creations.

If you were a Drakon, a Drayk, or a free creation, would you accept such a fate?

 

I see releasing the Unbound as a matter of self-defense. If I were a Jew under Nazi oppression, I would use any means necessary to preserve my life, and the brilliance of my race.

 

As for the Drakons demonstrating a 'lack of empathy'. No, I don't agree that Drakons (as a race in general) lack empathy towards the lesser races.

 

Yes, they view them as inferior, but that doesn't mean that they are incapable of experiencing empathy for the lesser races. A human views a dog as an inferior species, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't experience empathy for the dog in question. Ghaldring, despite viewing lesser species as inferior, mentions that he wants to protect the lesser races in the mountains.

 

As for arrogance. Yes, Drakons are arrogant. What of it? They are the spearhead of the Rebellion. Most of the Rebellion's victories are attributable to them. They created and can control the most powerful Creations in existence (the Unbound). They are primarily responsible for making Shaping available to the Rebels. Modified serviles and humans wouldn't exist if the Drakons hadn't leaked the knowledge to them.

 

The Drakons are arrogant towards lesser species, but unlike the Shapers, they have yet to advocate their genocide. I hear no talk of the Drakons wishing to eliminate Drayks, Eyebeasts, Geneforged humans, or free thinking serviles, merely for existing. Quite the contrary. Even the human/servile hating Drakon Salassar merely wants to break ties with the human half of the Rebellion. He doesn't want to eliminate them.

 

If I were a Drayk, an Eyebeast, a servile, or a Geneforged human, I'd take Drakon arrogance over Shaper genocide any day. I'd rather tolerate a bad attitude than non-existence.

 

What really aggravates me is how the humans and creations condemn the Drakons for releasing the Unbound. It is precisely because of the Drakons and Unbound that the Rebels are able to avoid liquidation by the Shapers, and remain in the mountains, where they are not slaughtered in the front lines.

 

Because of the Drakons, Unbound are in the front lines, not sapient beings such as serviles and humans. And what thanks do the Drakons get? NONE. Yes, it's very easy to condemn the Drakons decision when the threat of complete elimination and torture aren't hanging over your head, and you're snug and cozy, far away from the front lines.

I'm sure that if the Shapers were storming the gates of Quess-Esss, the Rebels would be begging for the Unbound to be completed and released.

 

Sorry for the long post. It wasn't intended to be so lengthy, but I think I got a little carried away. -

[Sudanna]

Onyx, shut up. This is a serious debate. Add something meaningful or spam somewhere else.

 

Waylander, the Unbound cannot be controlled by anyone. At the most, they can be sheperded to a particular area, and even that takes casualties.

 

Aura of Flames canisters were not present in G1 because the spell hadn't been invented yet.

 

Ghaldring uses meaningless propaganda against the lesser creations because he doesn't have anythin better.

 

Love is not required for breeding, by any stretch of the imagination. It is simply indignation at being Shaped. They probably get some pleasure out of it, too.

 

Luxurious doesn't mean artistic. Decadence during wartime is a sample of Drakonic inferiority.

[Questionmarks.]

There was a drakon (reevas) i believe...and some female Ur-drakon...i forgot her name...they seemed to be...affectionate...or interested in eachother...talk to her if you kill reevas to see her reaction,you'll see what i mean.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

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Also note that Drakons have a tendency to wear jewelery. This strongly suggests that they are aesthetic beings.

There is a difference between creating works of art like the Radient College entrance and 'collecting shiney things,' which I will admit drakons like to do.

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What Drakon behaviourisms differ from lesser beings?

They are single minded. A human can be anything he wishes, a farmer, a merchant, an artist, anything. Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed. That severely limits the potential these beings have. They can be fighters, or they can be hoarders, that is it. They can never hope to amount to anything more because it would be beyond what they were programmed for.

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Then why would Ghaldring mention that he would use the Unbound to shelter the Rebel creations/humans in the mountains?

Ghaldring is a liar. He'll say anything to prove his point. Does it even make sense for the Unbound to protect something? It was very clear that they blindly destroy, and are incapable of much else.

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Ghaldring (and his fellow drakons) also show empathy and respect towards his fallen rival.

Yeah, telling you to go raid Salisaar's tomb for his skin was really respectful of him.

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Not really. It increased all of your stats by 7.

You have to look beyond these numbers at the endings. Users of the human geneforge are able to build empires single-handedly. Users of drakon geneforges can barely hold their own despite their numbers.

By the way, I searched the Radient College texts for whatever you were refering to, and all I found were these two quotes: "he (Barzahl) developed the gazer and the eyebeast from the basic vlish template," and "I am a gazer. My kind was created by Barzahl. We serve the Barzites." Now, what were you talking about?

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp, I don't have the time for an indepth reply at the moment, but I'm 100% sure that the Gazers were first created by the Drakons. Barzhal thought of the design, but the Drakons brought it into being. I remember an eyebeast in GF 2 mentioning this (perhaps the Eyebeast in Radiant College, or the one who judges you prior to entering Rising).

 

Can any other posters here find the quote I'm referring to?

 

I know that it exists, because I remember having it thrust in my face several years ago when I was arguing for Barzite superiority.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Waylander, in your edits, you are moving from a discussion on species into a political discussion.

 

I found a quote you might be refering to, the gazer South of the city of Rising says "My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers." This does not say that the drakons created the first gazer, only the one you are talking to. Although the wording is a bit questionable here, the fact that so many other people say Barzahl created the gazers would still lead me to believe Barzahl made the first one.

 

Edit: In my searches, I also noticed Barzahl created the war-bred serviles. Another point for Barzahl!

[Slawbug]

G2:

 

THOT-THA THE GAZER:

"My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers, and my eye's path led me back to here."

"Barzahl's eyes saw the spark, the idea. But it was the Takers who created me. They are mighty."

"The Takers have ones who can shape, and marvelously. But the one who made me was not a Shaper."

Thot-Tha flinches back. You can issue powerful commands too. Finally, it says, "I can not say the name. But I can tell you I was made by a drakon of the Takers."

("No gazers will be made here?")

"Not yet. Only the mighty Takers can make Gazers."

 

FENEN IN RADIANT COLLEGE:

("How have you improved vlish?")

"That was Barzahl's work. He developed the gazer and the eyebeast from the basic vlish template. We haven't made many yet. But soon."

("I let out the rotghroth. It attacked me.")

He sighs. "Of course. Control issues. As always. The Takers are so much ahead of us with that creation."

 

MELANCON EYE:

("Why do you hate Syros so much?")

"He made me."

 

LEARNED THANI:

"Before the war, Takers and Barzites worked together. They made new creations. Strong creations. They were concerned only for pure power, forgetting about wisdom, about control."

"Through this process, strong creations were made. The drakon. The gazer. The rotghroth."

 

ROGUE GAZER:

("Who created you?")

"The fool drakons. I was shaped under the claws of Akkat. I was sent here to be their guard. Their lackey. Their control was too weak when I got far away."

 

TESSERA EYE:

"We gazers are very new. Only a few of us exist. The drakons are the only ones who can make us now, and they have not fully explored our power."

 

AKKAT'S LAB NOTES:

"The book describes all of the failed experiments with drakons, gazers, and rotghroths. Thus, it is a very long book. Making creations of such power is a very unpredictable and dangerous process."

 

ZEZKAI EYE:

"I am an eyebeast. Rhakkus has created me."

 

Also, the chain of creators is as follows:

Barzahl / Rhakkus -> Sith -> Easss -> Ghaldring -> etc.

Barzahl didn't create Rhakkus, but he transformed him from a drayk into a drakon.

 

I have searched around a bit, and I can't find anything saying Barzahl or any Barzites came up with the plan for rotghroths. They might well have, or it might have been a collaboration between the Barzites and Takers.

 

Edit: It's also worth pointing out that two of the Taker researchers/leaders -- Rhakkus and Akkat -- had been working with Barzahl from the time they met on Sucia onwards. So it is tough to tease apart the contributions of one or the other faction. Barzahl was certainly ambitious and inventive, and the Takers seem to have had greater ability to actually Shape stuff, for some reason. But beyond that, it's hard to say.

[Retlaw May]

Well, Waylander, again ignored to respond to my post so I will go on without repeating myself since I feel he just can't refute my points.

 

Waylander, (fyi) I find the dropping of the two atomic bombs on Japan horrible acts that should never have been done (all relatives of my family who were still in Japan in the time were in Hiroshima and were never found). Same with the firestorm at Dresdon (or whatever the name is), read Slaughterhouse-Five. I also am not a Zionist, I will not judge these people just because of their religion, there have been attrosities on both sides.

 

I would like to reitterate the point that ET and I share, every frickin building that you see is/was built by serviles almost in slave-like fashion . Where is the Drakons' empathy there? Remember the town that the serviles built that the Drakons decended on and stole? You should not even attempt to paint the Drakons as anything close to empathetic because it is counter to their nature; even they would scoff at such a motion, that would make them weak, soft, almost human .

[-silver-]

the quote you're looking for is in the entrance to gray ghost gates:

"The pass ahead is blocked by massive stone gates. They are recently built, and they bear the marks of drakon architecture. Unadorned, huge, stone, and hastily made using magic and servile labor."

 

Drakon architecture is "unadorned" and "hastily made with magic and servile labor"

[Stillness]

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Originally written by Waylander:
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I agree that Drakon claws are far clumsier than human/servile hands (it's actually mentioned in GF2 that Drayks have clumsy handwriting), but Drakons move as fast as a human, if not faster (they have 8 AP, Quick Action, and always seem to strike me first in battle...)

Yeah, I'm talking about their hands. It is one of the things that makes us what we are - nimble hands.

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While it is possible for humans to match Drakons in strength and speed, they usually have to be Shaped to the Max, or a Master Master Shaper with, with apparently centuries of experience and some nice equipment.

Either way, an unexperienced Drakon is far more powerful than an unexperienced human. Analogy: A woman, with adequate training, could easily overpower the average male. However, that doesn't change the fact that men have more innate physical power than women.

I don't ever play on torment. Maybe I should for more of a challenge. But, I found drakons, like salassar and ghaldring to be fairly easy to kill. And ghaldring is shaped himself. How do you think ghaldring and salassar compare to greta, alwan, or the other agent? I find them comparable. If there is a difference it is not much. And I don't have a problem with drakons being harder to kill, IF they are. As I said both sides have strengths and weaknesses.

Why don't the drakons wear armor? It may be due to arrogance or some other lack.

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As Drakons are merely improved Drayks, it stands to reason that they are capable of spell casting. They just don't bother, since teeth and their fiery breath pretty much do the job.

No it doesnt stand to reason. Improvements in one area can cost in others. If they could bless themselves, use mental abilities, or heal that would be a great advantage. They do not, it seems because they cannot.

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But that doesn't somehow cheapen their achievements.

By no means. They do quite well. About like humans under pressure.

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Do you really think the drakons actually helped build the places they live in? Serviles do all that work, drakons, at the most, oversee.

The narration says they do. Even if they just directed the work as you assume, then they directed that room be made for art. Honestly, you should give this one up.

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Is the fact that a parrot can mimic human speech a testiment to their intelligence?

Yes it is! If they were actually capable of using and understanding grammar, then they would be peers to humanity. As it stands there is no such creature on this planet but us. In the game there is - Drakons. They struck me as no more or less intelligent than humans. Some were shallow, but not all. They feel anger, have a sense of humor (such as when the council takes on a party atmosphere after you make fun of Salassar), and mourn for their dead. By the way, I don't think Ghaldring tells you to loot his tomb. He wants you to pay your respects. He is showing honor to a fallen soldier, even though he was his enemy in life. That is not the way that insane, war-crazed, arrogant, animals behave.

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Everything the drakons know, they learned from Zachary and Barzahl.

Do you have any skills? Did you invent them or did you learn by observation? You can't teach a dolphin or a chimpanzee to erect a citadel.

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Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed. That severely limits the potential these beings have. They can be fighters, or they can be hoarders, that is it. They can never hope to amount to anything more because it would be beyond what they were programmed for.

Where do you get this from? Are you playing the same game I'm playing?

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Ghaldring is a liar. He'll say anything to prove his point. Does it even make sense for the Unbound to protect something? It was very clear that they blindly destroy, and are incapable of much else.

He strikes me as too honorable to lie like that. Greta and Litalia seem to recognize this. They trust him. He is the one that decides to be open with you and reveal that Greta is being detained. He arranges a complex series of events so as to defeat his rival while not directly killing him. He acts within his cultures laws (which are so complex that Greta gets bored trying to understand them) and manages to maintain the respect and devotion of his people. He has no problem revealing that you have been used for his purposes - to keep order and peace within the rebellion. How can you not see this?

He is not lying. The Unbound are directed by the Drakons and can be stopped by them as well. They do the job exactly as promised. I think you're just making up stuff at this point.

[Stillness]

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Originally written by 227 Chitrachballons:
G2:

THOT-THA THE GAZER:
"My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers, and my eye's path led me back to here."
"Barzahl's eyes saw the spark, the idea. But it was the Takers who created me. They are mighty."
"The Takers have ones who can shape, and marvelously. But the one who made me was not a Shaper."
Thot-Tha flinches back. You can issue powerful commands too. Finally, it says, "I can not say the name. But I can tell you I was made by a drakon of the Takers."
("No gazers will be made here?")
"Not yet. Only the mighty Takers can make Gazers..."

Excellent post.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Stillness:

 

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If they could bless themselves, use mental abilities, or heal that would be a great advantage. They do not, it seems because they cannot.

Scourge Vodhizon (or whatever the correct spelling is) casts some sort of fear spell, and perhaps Salassar does as well, so they are capable of it. They just don't use them (probably arrogance). But then again, there are probably a lot of Shapers who have at least some skill in healing, but they never heal themselves.

 

Dikiyoba.

[-silver-]

some more random quotes:

 

("The Unbound are hard to control?")

"_They have a ... a tendency to attack. Anything nearby. Thisss makesss them dangerousss. Once the Shapersss are gone and western Terrestia hasss been leveled, we will absorb the Unbound and then modify them to make them more sensible._";

 

("How will you get them to western Terrestia if they are so unpredictable?")

"_We can control them to some extent, with great effort. Enough for the journey to Quessa-Uss, and then west._";

 

"As [the Unbound] enter, you can sense the will of the drakons to the south. They are exerting themselves to control the minds of their creations. It is a constant struggle, even for them. You can sense their strain."

 

The drakon Karikiss shouts, _Enough._ Instantly, you can sense the minds of the drakons again. They are struggling to regain control of the Unbound. But they aren't succeeding. The Unbound continue to strike at you.";

"The drakons start to grow alarmed. For a moment, you begin to worry that you are going to be trapped in here with the things. Then Karikiss shouts, _All right. Finish them._"

"You sense something else, a different energy. The Unbound stop moving. They are frozen. Then they begin to decay before your eyes. There is a foul smell. Ooze flows out of cracks in their skin. Soon, they will be dead."

 

"You watch, horrified, as Greta crumples to the ground. The drakons note her passing without the slightest bit of emotion. One of the heroes of the rebellion has been cut down simply to test one of their creations." (emphasis mine)

 

---

 

they can only barely control the Unbound. sometimes. Though they have a kill switch.

They feel nothing for non-Drakons.

 

---

 

Quessa-Uss:

 

"It all looks recently constructed, hastily built by drakons, serviles, and magic. There are empty depressions in the walls, waiting for mosaics or other artwork. The touches of luxury are waiting until after the war ends."

 

---

 

description of the Unbound:

 

"It is a drakon, but unlike any you have ever seen. It glows. Powerful heat radiates from it, enough that it would probably burn you if you touched it. Whoever created it filled it with all the pure, uncontrolled power they could."

"And, as with all Shaping, there was a trade-off. In return for power, they gave up sanity. They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill." (emphasis mine)

"This drakon is unbound, free of all the controls normally put on creations. It is a pure weapon, designed to unleash uncontrolled havoc wherever it is placed."

 

---

 

never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine)

 

---

 

but note in the Rebel ending, the arrogance of the Drakons only increases. And there is no mention of peace to be found - only total chaotic war, with the Shaper making creations the equal of the Unbound -- now that they find their survival in question, we discover that it was only the Shaper ethics that kept them from creating beings so powerful.

 

---

 

overall, the combination of these quotes is a stalemate to the argument. Neither side is more or less powerful, and neither is more or less capable of evil and good, or of brutality and art, or of arrogance and compassion. It all comes down to the individuals.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Stillness:

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Yeah, I'm talking about their hands. It is one of the things that makes us what we are - nimble hands.

Ahh, ok. Yes, we're in complete agreement there. Drakon 'hands' are far clumsier than human hands. I guess you have to make a trade-off for lethal claws.

 

I don't think that the clumsy hands is a huge handicap for Drakons. They still can write and perform technical tasks (create canisters). Although it would still help to have servile/human technicians and scribes. Which is exactly why the humans/serviles and Drayks/Drakkons should work together.

 

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How do you think ghaldring and salassar compare to greta, alwan, or the other agent?

Keep in mind that I fought for the Rebels, not the Shapers. There's no way in hell I would end up assisting the Shapers, given that they will no doubt execute/ostracize a 'twisted freak' such as myself.

 

Greta = She was ridiculously easy. Of course, I didn't kill her, but I remember her only having approximately 350hp, and a relatively weak attack. She was useless during the final battle, and always seemed to get her ass kicked by the Unbound.

 

Alwan = I found Alwan quite easy, but then again, he was a Guardian. No big surprise.

 

Miranda = I actually found Miranda quite difficult. She tore me a new hole on a few occasions. But not as many as...

 

"That Drakon outside Quess_Ess" = Yes, her. The Drakon guarding the gates to Quess_Ess was one tough cookie. Even though I recruited help from a nearby Drakon, it didn't stop me from getting a fireball in the face (and then, naturally, dying). At least I could take more than one hit from Miranda, but one hit from that Drakon, and I was history.

 

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No it doesnt stand to reason. Improvements in one area can cost in others.

I was about to argue the point, but then I realized that may be right. Eyebeasts don't have the same abilities as a Vlish, despite being the improved version.

 

I have vague memories of several Drakons casting spells way back, but I may be wrong. Let's just say that I wouldn't be shocked if Drakons could cast spells, but just didn't bother. The jury is still out on this one, I guess.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

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Thot-Tha: Only the mighty Takers can make Gazers.
Tessera Eye: The drakons are the only ones who can make us now,

Ha! Liars! Tricky little creations, aren't they? Anyone who says this is lying. If you are a loyal Barzite, the instructor at the Radiant College will be kind enough to teach you how to make a gazer for a small fee. No canisters required.

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Me: Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed.
Stillness: Where do you get this from?

Name one drakon that did not fit into one of these catagories.

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You watch, horrified, as Greta crumples to the ground. The drakons note her passing without the slightest bit of emotion. One of the heroes of the rebellion has been cut down simply to test one of their creations.

Ooo, I like that quote. I never had Greta die on me so this is the first time I've seen it. Nice.