Who Should Win in Geneforge 5

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Nioca

True enough. Your point?

My point? My point was that the unbound were justified. I... did you forget what we were talking about?

Actually, I was just trying to figure out where you were going with it. Don't forget, the Drakons weren't targeting only the rulers. If they were, they'd probably have my support.

Quote:

Quote:

Wrong answer! Try "vengeance". Believe me, if survival or freedom were the primary motives, the Drakons would have already retreated from Terrestria to regroup.

Retreated where?

Hello! Ashen Isles! You know, that place where they burned down a Shaper school and gained total dominance? Where Greta came to be?

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

But the humans in Geneforge are capable of that, Safey.

Most humans are villagers, farmers, merchants, towns people ect. Another sizable portion are soldiers. If you refering to a small number of shapers, lifecrafters, mages, ect they by no means count as a majority. Second they either gain their powers one of two ways either they spent years learning it or the underwent genetic alterations that makes them as crazy if not crazier then the drakons.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

Quote:

Some are servants, some are future rebels-against-the-drakons-in-the-making. The serviles are now just coming around to the fact that the Drakons are exploiting them just like the Shapers did.

 

The Drakon collective aren't exploiting serviles, they are cooperating with them, although admittedly the behaviour of some Drakons towards non-Drakons is overbearing and callous. Such behaviour has made the serviles distrust the Drakons as a whole, although they still have to admit that the Drakons are the last hope for the Rebellion.

 

Quote:

That's because the Drakons put all their eggs into one basket with the unbound.

 

Did they? Wasn't there political upheaval, which would have hindered Ghaldring's attempts to support the non-Drakon half of the Rebellion?

 

Also, the switch from conventional warfare to the Unbound is rather sensible. If you are repeatedly getting beaten and suffering heavy losses in conventional warfare, then common sense tells you to employ asymmetrical tactics.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

Quote:

That said, they aren't defeated; simply pushed back to the Ashen Isles.

 

Hahah, yeah, having your main forces smashed on the mainland and being forced to retreat to an island fortress doesn't count as being defeated.

 

The destruction of the Rebellion on the mainland is the equivalent of what the Battle of Tannenburg was for the Teutonic Knights.

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

Some are servants, some are future rebels-against-the-drakons-in-the-making. The serviles are now just coming around to the fact that the Drakons are exploiting them just like the Shapers did.

The Drakon collective aren't exploiting serviles, they are cooperating with them, although admittedly the behaviour of some Drakons towards non-Drakons is overbearing and callous. Such behaviour has made the serviles distrust the Drakons as a whole, although they still have to admit that the Drakons are the last hope for the Rebellion.

Were not talking just few disgruntle serviles a whole colony of cryodrayks tore down a bridge and have you attack the ghaldring representative. That and the fact the rest of the rebellion chooses not help them make more unbound proves that drakons problems with treating other members of the rebellion are neither mild nor isolated incidents.

Quote:

That's because the Drakons put all their eggs into one basket with the unbound.

Quote:

Did they? Wasn't there political upheaval, which would have hindered Ghaldring's attempts to support the non-Drakon half of the Rebellion?

Also, the switch from conventional warfare to the Unbound is rather sensible. If you are repeatedly getting beaten and suffering heavy losses in conventional warfare, then common sense tells you to employ asymmetrical tactics.

other super weapons did? They used the geneforges and they still ended up in a bad way. The drakons spent much more time on vainly upgrading (unbound included) them selfs while the shaper developed new and more effective strategies then drakons have the gall to blame the human/servile rebellion

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

Some are servants, some are future rebels-against-the-drakons-in-the-making. The serviles are now just coming around to the fact that the Drakons are exploiting them just like the Shapers did.

The Drakon collective aren't exploiting serviles, they are cooperating with them, although admittedly the behaviour of some Drakons towards non-Drakons is overbearing and callous. Such behaviour has made the serviles distrust the Drakons as a whole, although they still have to admit that the Drakons are the last hope for the Rebellion.

So the serviles just handed over Khima-uss and voluntarily started waiting on the Drakons hand and foot?

Quote:

Quote:

That's because the Drakons put all their eggs into one basket with the unbound.

Did they? Wasn't there political upheaval, which would have hindered Ghaldring's attempts to support the non-Drakon half of the Rebellion?

Yes and yes. Point?

Quote:

Also, the switch from conventional warfare to the Unbound is rather sensible. If you are repeatedly getting beaten and suffering heavy losses in conventional warfare, then common sense tells you to employ asymmetrical tactics.

Fair enough, but you also prepare contingencies on the off-chance that doesn't work, and you don't leave yourself open to attack while doing it. The A-Bomb saved the day during WW2, but did the Americans withdraw all their resources and manpower to work on it?

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

That said, they aren't defeated; simply pushed back to the Ashen Isles.

Hahah, yeah, having your main forces smashed on the mainland and being forced to retreat to an island fortress doesn't count as being defeated.

The destruction of the Rebellion on the mainland is the equivalent of what the Battle of Tannenburg was for the Teutonic Knights.

They're alive, aren't they? They faction still exists, correct? Considering the Shapers, I think defeat comes in when the rebellion is gone entirely. Plus, I think a battle of attrition on the Ashen Isles might actually prove advantageous to the Rebels.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

Quote:

So the serviles just handed over Khima-uss and voluntarily started waiting on the Drakons hand and foot?

 

Nope. The Drakon warleader came in and callously took control of Khima-uss. I don't dispute the Drakons taking control of military settlements, given that the rebellion acknowledges that they are the leaders of the war effort. But I do agree that the Drakons responsible should have handled that far more diplomatically, and been more sensitive to the needs of the serviles.

 

Which agrees with my previous statement:

The Drakon collective aren't exploiting serviles, they are cooperating with them, although admittedly the behaviour of some Drakons towards non-Drakons is overbearing and callous. Such behaviour has made the serviles distrust the Drakons as a whole, although they still have to admit that the Drakons are the last hope for the Rebellion.

 

Quote:

Yes and yes. Point?

 

Well, you were blaming the Drakons work on the Unbound for the failure of conventional tactics against the Shapers. But as you admit, there was also civil strife amongst the Drakons, which is an alternative explaination as to why conventional warfare might fail.

 

But then again, the Rebellion was failing long before the civil strife or the creation of the Unbound. After all, the Drakons began the Unbound project in response to getting severely beaten in conventional warfare. You may be putting the cart before the horse here, methinks.

 

Quote:

Fair enough, but you also prepare contingencies on the off-chance that doesn't work, and you don't leave yourself open to attack while doing it.

 

That's probably why the Drakons took command of Khima-Uss, and built a Shaping Chamber? And why they fortified the areas surrounding the Drakon stronghold?

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

Quote:

They're alive, aren't they?

 

Not the mainland Rebels. And the Rebellion is no longer an effective fighting force.

 

Quote:

They faction still exists, correct?

 

The Teutonic Knights still existed after the Battle of Tannenburg. Point?

 

Quote:

Considering the Shapers, I think defeat comes in when the rebellion is gone entirely.

 

From a Rebel perspective, having all independent Creation life snuffed out on the mainland sounds like a defeat. Losing an effective military force also sounds pretty disasterous.

 

Quote:

Plus, I think a battle of attrition on the Ashen Isles might actually prove advantageous to the Rebels.

 

Yeah, I'm sure that makes up for losing your foothold on the mainland. There's nothing quite like being back at square one, except minus Ghaldring, Ahkari Blaze, and Lilita, as well as scores of Drakons, Drayks and rebel humans and serviles.

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

So the serviles just handed over Khima-uss and voluntarily started waiting on the Drakons hand and foot?

Nope. The Drakon warleader came in and callously took control of Khima-uss. I don't dispute the Drakons taking control of military settlements, given that the rebellion acknowledges that they are the leaders of the war effort. But I do agree that the Drakons responsible should have handled that far more diplomatically, and been more sensitive to the needs of the serviles.

Which agrees with my previous statement:
The Drakon collective aren't exploiting serviles, they are cooperating with them, although admittedly the behaviour of some Drakons towards non-Drakons is overbearing and callous. Such behaviour has made the serviles distrust the Drakons as a whole, although they still have to admit that the Drakons are the last hope for the Rebellion.

I strongly disagree the human and servile actions in the trakovite ending and the actions of the crydrayk rebellion from the drakon point to a much bigger problem with the way the drakon are treating others then your willing to admit.

edit in: That and their are several different serviles, dryaks, and crydrayks that say the drakons are become just like the shapers.

[Ghaldring]

The problem with the Cyrodrayks was that they expressed their grievances in such a way as to hinder the Rebellion. I do think that they have a legitimate complaint, but obstructing the path to the chambers of the Unbound which are being constructed to save the Rebellion is self-defeating.

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

The problem with the Cyrodrayks was that they expressed their grievances in such a way as to hinder the Rebellion. I do think that they have a legitimate complaint, but obstructing the path to the chambers of the Unbound which are being constructed to save the Rebellion is self-defeating.

The shapers could say the same thing about the rebellion. Should they have waited till the drakons use the unbound to crush anyone one who objects to their rule? Would they have been heard any other way?

[Ghaldring]

I don't see the similarity? As things stood, the enemies (ie. Shapers) were at the gates, and the cyrodrayks were blocking the route the Drakons needed to use in order to reach the vats and complete the Unbound that would save the Rebellion.

 

But yeah, I do think the Drakons should have attempted to reason with the Cryodrayks before resorting to violence. I never said that all Drakons were perfect.

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

I don't see the similarity? As things stood, the enemies (ie. Shapers) were at the gates, and the cyrodrayks were blocking the route the Drakons needed to use in order to reach the vats and complete the Unbound that would save the Rebellion.

But yeah, I do think the Drakons should have attempted to reason with the Cryodrayks before resorting to violence. I never said that all Drakons were perfect.

I'll admit the comparison is a bit of a stretch

If their not willing to negotiate with disgruntle members of their own rebellion why do you think they would negotiate with the shapers as whole.

It is what makes them refuse to negotiate with the "inferior beings" of the rebellion that makes me not support them. All they send to greet and emissary from Litila, a lone disgruntle drayk? They seize towns without even trying to reason or allow the serviles to maintain some control. You can argue they do this out of survival but their sense of arrogance and entitlement stops them offer any form of reimbursement even something as simple as an apology is too much for them.

The shaper ending stated the the drakons extremely arrogant on good days and merely extremely confident on bad ones. This was said about the whole race not just a few. Ghaldring or perhaps one of his lackeys said that the younger generation was a bit cocky (and thats by drakon standards mind you) so if each generation is geting more arrogant and more powerful... In the drakons I see a slow progression into a race of unbound.

anyways I'm going to bed

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

So the serviles just handed over Khima-uss and voluntarily started waiting on the Drakons hand and foot?

Nope. The Drakon warleader came in and callously took control of Khima-uss. I don't dispute the Drakons taking control of military settlements, given that the rebellion acknowledges that they are the leaders of the war effort. But I do agree that the Drakons responsible should have handled that far more diplomatically, and been more sensitive to the needs of the serviles.

Which agrees with my previous statement:
The Drakon collective aren't exploiting serviles, they are cooperating with them, although admittedly the behaviour of some Drakons towards non-Drakons is overbearing and callous. Such behaviour has made the serviles distrust the Drakons as a whole, although they still have to admit that the Drakons are the last hope for the Rebellion.

I think our ideas on cooperation vary greatly. So I'll let this point drop.

Quote:

Quote:

Yes and yes. Point?

Well, you were blaming the Drakons work on the Unbound for the failure of conventional tactics against the Shapers.

No, I was blaming the total failure of the Drakons on the mainland on their work on the Unbound (wow, that was unwieldy). From what I can tell, their conventional tactics failed because they had the combined strategic prowess of one of those little puffball mines. Spreading rogues only gets you so far.

Quote:

Quote:

Fair enough, but you also prepare contingencies on the off-chance that doesn't work, and you don't leave yourself open to attack while doing it.

That's probably why the Drakons took command of Khima-Uss, and built a Shaping Chamber? And why they fortified the areas surrounding the Drakon stronghold?

I meant a contingency battle plan. Heck, retreat was better than what they did (panic).

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

They're alive, aren't they?

Not the mainland Rebels. And the Rebellion is no longer an effective fighting force.

I disagree. They're effective enough to dissuade the Shapers from launching a full-scale attack on the island.

Quote:

Quote:

Considering the Shapers, I think defeat comes in when the rebellion is gone entirely.

From a Rebel perspective, having all independent Creation life snuffed out on the mainland sounds like a defeat. Losing an effective military force also sounds pretty disasterous.

A defeat. Disastrous (which you spelled wrong). This doesn't sound like game over, merely a massive setback. It's still possible to turn things around.

Quote:

Quote:

Plus, I think a battle of attrition on the Ashen Isles might actually prove advantageous to the Rebels.

Yeah, I'm sure that makes up for losing your foothold on the mainland. There's nothing quite like being back at square one, except minus Ghaldring, Ahkari Blaze, and Lilita, as well as scores of Drakons, Drayks and rebel humans and serviles.

I suppose it doesn't. But it's better than nothing, right?

[Ghaldring]

Safey:

Quote:

If their not willing to negotiate with disgruntle members of their own rebellion why do you think they would negotiate with the shapers as whole.

 

If Drakon survival and well-being depended on negotiation, then they would negotiate, as demonstrated by the Trakovite ending.

 

The problem here is that such an opportunity was never offered to the Drakons (or even the Drayks/rebel serviles) by the Shapers. Even the relatively harmless Awakened serviles who attempted to negotiate with the Shapers were laughed at, before having their towns raised to the ground.

 

I remember a quote being made by a member on this forum, something along the lines of "The Drakons make achieving peace difficult, but the Shapers make it impossible." I think that this is a play on a similar quote made in reference to the Palestinian conflict, which is something along the lines of "The Palestinians make achieving peace difficult, but the Israelis make it impossible."

 

No matter how arrogant the Drakons may be, the fact still remains that the Shapers held all the aces, yet didn't even given the Drakons the opportunity to negotiate. Even if the Drakons had not been willing to negotiate and compromise, the rest of the Rebellion would most likely have turned against them and thus significantly reduced the power of the Rebel armies.

 

Quote:

It is what makes them refuse to negotiate with the "inferior beings" of the rebellion that makes me not support them. All they send to greet and emissary from Litila, a lone disgruntle drayk?

 

Actually, it was Greta. And they do grant you an audience (in fact several) before Ghaldring. They are also horrified when Salassadar mistreats human guests.

 

Quote:

They seize towns without even trying to reason or allow the serviles to maintain some control.

 

Not always. At the gates to Quess-Uss, serviles and Drakons were working together. On the fourth island of Dhonal's isle, the serviles and drayks were in control. At Derenton Freehold, there was no attempt by the Drakons to take over.

 

Quote:

You can argue they do this out of survival but their sense of arrogance and entitlement stops them offer any form of reimbursement even something as simple as an apology is too much for them.

 

Yep, some Drakons do demonstrate insensitivity, although I don't think that this is inherent to their race. I'd say it's more a product of having to fight a war of self-preservation, and also bitterness at the heavy losses suffered earlier in the war. They scapegoat other groups, behaviour which is common amongst humans in times of hardship and disaster.

 

Quote:

The shaper ending stated the the drakons extremely arrogant on good days and merely extremely confident on bad ones.

 

As a collective, are Drakons more arrogant than humans? Perhaps. But their condescending views towards non-Drakons developed over time due to social factors, as is stated by the old Drayk in the Unbound vats.

[Lord Safey]

Quote:

Quote:

It is what makes them refuse to negotiate with the "inferior beings" of the rebellion that makes me not support them. All they send to greet and emissary from Litila, a lone disgruntle drayk?

Actually, it was Greta. And they do grant you an audience (in fact several) before Ghaldring. They are also horrified when Salassadar mistreats human guests.

Only because it hurt their pride why should, why should powerful drakons need to resort to such tactics? The audiences are only granted because Ghaldering wants to use you as tool.

Quote:

Quote:

They seize towns without even trying to reason or allow the serviles to maintain some control.

Not always. At the gates to Quess-Uss, serviles and Drakons were working together. On the fourth island of Dhonal's isle, the serviles and drayks were in control. At Derenton Freehold, there was no attempt by the Drakons to take over.

Only one island had a large shaper presence and in the rebel ending the island was of no major significance so I assume even then their was still a lot of concern that drakons would barge in and take control. Although I imagine they didn't because it wasn't glorious enough in the end. The gates of quess-uss I beleive is do to extreme desperation and the drakons had much better quarters and where still in charge despite the fact the were working along with them.

Quote:

Quote:

You can argue they do this out of survival but their sense of arrogance and entitlement stops them offer any form of reimbursement even something as simple as an apology is too much for them.

Yep, some Drakons do demonstrate insensitivity, although I don't think that this is inherent to their race. I'd say it's more a product of having to fight a war of self-preservation, and also bitterness at the heavy losses suffered earlier in the war. They scapegoat other groups, behaviour which is common amongst humans in times of hardship and disaster.

Is it? I think that might have accelerate the process but their were signs of this in GF3 when they where wining the war.

Quote:

Quote:

The shaper ending stated the the drakons extremely arrogant on good days and merely extremely confident on bad ones.

As a collective, are Drakons more arrogant than humans? Perhaps. But their condescending views towards non-Drakons developed over time due to social factors, as is stated by the old Drayk in the Unbound vats.

same as above it social factor accelrated it. You want me to believe that every canister you take makes you a bit crazier and it stated many times through gf2-gf4 that the drakons where using similar techniques don't the same effect on them as it does humans? That and excessive canister usage is the only thing a human can do to be consider an equal by Drakons. I find it highly unlikely that it is mostly due to social issues.

and now I'm going to bed

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

I think a battle of attrition on the Ashen Isles might actually prove advantageous to the Rebels.

I'm afraid not. That very strategy failed the Awakened in Geneforge 2, sadly. Their sacrifice should reveal the futility of their methods. No, retreat is not an option, remaining on the defensive even is not an option, not when the enemy's goal is your extinction. Even if I believed the drakons would attempt to become the undisputed masters of all lesser species, which I am not convinced, is not wiping out an entire sentient species a far less noble cause?

[Brock The Archmage]

I don't have time to read this huge thread, so I'll just answer the original question.

 

Because G5 is the final installment (I heard), the 'who should win' bit is kind of pointless. There won't be a canonical ending, the only thing you can do is try to get the ending that is best for you, personally.

 

Or, ya know, you could just kill everyone.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Nioca

I think a battle of attrition on the Ashen Isles might actually prove advantageous to the Rebels.

I'm afraid not. That very strategy failed the Awakened in Geneforge 2, sadly. Their sacrifice should reveal the futility of their methods.

Failed? In the Awakened ending, they held the Shapers at bay.

[A less presumptuous name.]

well, i looked today for the first time, and this got twice as long, yet another shaper v reber with a little bit of trakovites thrown in , forum that i give up on lol

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Failed? In the Awakened ending, they held the Shapers at bay.

That ending is not canon. The Awakened were wiped out in Drypeak Valley, remember? Isolation actually failed three different factions in Geneforge 2 alone, and now history barely even remembers them. Ghaldring was very wise not to make the same mistake his predecessors did.

[Lord Safey]

To put it shortly this isn't an ethical decision y'all keep making it out to be. Even if the Drakons have the moral high ground, which I don't believe. However the Drakons are slowly growing more insane and powerful with each generation. Eventually unless their stopped you will come to a situation kin to GF1 ending where you leave the island with the original geneforge intact and ready to use.

 

Eass used a GF to create a more advance race of Drakons. the Drakons in GF 3 does the same. I have found no evidence that this GF was destroyed. Also their is nothing to prevent them from making another. Considering their obsession with super weapons I find highly likely.

 

We know what the effects of the GF are on living people. It makes the user more arrogant, more power hungry, less caring about "lesser beings", and less sane. It stated in the rebel ending that all the drakons came to use it.

 

So I don't like either choose before me on side I have a faction that has committed genocide and slavery and will continue too. On the other side I have a faction that is slowly going insane and shows every sign of bring Armageddon.

 

So here are my choices choose support the shapers and kill off a few races choose the Rebels/Drakons and kill of everybody. I choose the first.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Failed? In the Awakened ending, they held the Shapers at bay.

That ending is not canon. The Awakened were wiped out in Drypeak Valley, remember?

True, but they also had to contend with three other factions as well. With those eliminated, the Awakened carried the day. In fact, each and every faction within Drypeak was incapable of bringing it's full power to bear because it couldn't concentrate it in a solid defense. In every faction-specific ending, when the inside threats had been removed, the faction favored by the player was fully capable of mounting a successful defense against the Shapers.

EDIT: UBB was acting odd again. It was moving insanely slow, and I'm positive that I had double-posted this.

[Ale193]

IF you had sided with the awakened they would have one, whichever faction you choose in GF2 all the others are eradicated, usually due to you killing them all. the awakened lose because there's no shapers that are both sane and powerful to help them.

[Ilya]

Surely, what I'm going to say already being said, but bear with me a little.

Talking about morals while it's continent-wide war raging? "Oh, is it OK to kill loyalists?" "Is it OK to kill rebels?" Yes to both, and as quick as possible and as much as you can!

It's not war between Shapers and Drakons, it's Loyalist humans vs Rebel humans and creations. Morals, huh? Who is better, who is more enlightened, who kill less innocents? All those questions are fit for Sholai to ask (however, most likely they they will answer with "don't care"). When you fighting the only question which should bother you is "how can I destroy my opponent fast and easy?"

 

Do I need to recall you that it's Rebels who came to Loyalist land with war?

Rebels just want to survive? So do Loyalists. Rebels fight for "freedom"? So do Loyalists!

 

And Loyalists should win and exterminate each and every non-human rebel and human rebels, who were geneforged or by other means can do shaping. Next, Shapers should seriously consider total elimination of any non-human intelligent beings and revisiting all barred land with complite destruction of everything/everyone found.

Why so? Simply because Shapers have enough experience (and troubles) with fellow humans obsessed with shaping power to have drayks/drakons etc running around and doing uncontrolled shaping and possibility to start yet another war.

And final argument: if you were just a human, whom you would prefer to see as your superior - human or creation? I definitely would prefer human monarch/president/mayor/you name it.

[Feo Takahari]

Originally Posted By: Ilya

And final argument: if you were just a human, whom you would prefer to see as your superior - human or creation? I definitely would prefer human monarch/president/mayor/you name it.

It seems like you are conflating "human" with "person" and thereby assuming that anything that isn't human isn't a person. I lack the necessary argumentative skill to oppose you on this, but I direct you to an excellent work of fiction called Metaplanetary by Tony Daniel.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Ilya, you seem to think that humans are the only creatures that should be endowed with intelligence. You're highly reactionary views are infinitesimally small in support. I don't know anyone who happens to share your views. I'm not much of a person for personal attacks, but your incredibly arrogant views nearly made me sick.

 

Anyway, since this seems to be now a thread about morals, I personally side myself with the shapers. Sure, they have been known to commit genocide, but only when they find the species a danger to the world, not just themselves. All great governments have made mistakes. The US government, which I think has done a descent job so far, has been as bad as to create concentration camps for japanese-americans in WWII. Not the greatest example, I know, but the point comes across.

 

Now, if people never challenged the rules, the US wouldn't exist. What really needs to happen is for the human leaders, or even drayks (the drakons are too arrogant) leaders of all parties to come together and negotiate. The rebels never tried to negotiate. I realize that it started with attempted genocide, but that is no reason not to try.

 

The only thing keeping this from happening is the drakons. A possibility that I am now realizing is that the rebellion will split, and, if the player wants, the human rebellion and the shapers could come together and put the drakons out of the picture.

[Ghaldring]

The Drakons make negotiation difficult, but the Shapers prevent negotiation.

 

Perhaps now that the Unbound are released, the Shapers might think about trying to negotiate in Geneforge 5, although I doubt it. As they state in the rebel ending of Geneforge 3, they would rather see the world reduced to cinders, than not be the rulers of it.

[Lord Safey]

I think the best possible ending and I'm not sure nor do I want to know if it possible ending till I play G5. As the war gross increasingly more brutal a wedge will form in both factions the extremely traditional shapers will for one faction while the more moderate shapers will form another. The same will happen in the less extreme rebellion the (the humans, the dryaks, and serviles). My best hope is they will form an uneasy alliance and destroy their more radical counterparts. I do stand on what I have said before about the drakons for the most part, they leave the world with no option but to destroy them however this is also true for the more shapers who won't open their mind.

[Ghaldring]

The Drakons have been around since Geneforge 2. I think they are here to stay.

[Lord Safey]

that comment has nothing to do with what I said

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

The Drakons make negotiation difficult, but the Shapers prevent negotiation.

Yeah, the "every Shaper needs to die" aspect really screams of diplomatic prowess. Heck, the Shapers allowed a Rebel creation to join them. That doesn't sound like negotiation with the Shapers is impossible.

That said, I think Safey hit it on the dot. Until the extremists on both sides go, or one side perseveres, there will be no peace nor justice.

[Xelgion]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

The Drakons make negotiation difficult, but the Shapers prevent negotiation.

Yeah, the "every Shaper needs to die" aspect really screams of diplomatic prowess. Heck, the Shapers allowed a Rebel creation to join them. That doesn't sound like negotiation with the Shapers is impossible.

Thats not negotiation. If the rebels wanted a truce, (Before the Shaper ending) the shapers would be "Okay, but the Drakons/Drayks die, and the serviles get brainwashed."

Not the best of communications.

[Nioca]

Maybe not between the two sides, but it was negotiation between a Rebel Creation and the Shapers that normally would destroy him/her.

 

Also, you need to back up your claims.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

Quote:

Yeah, the "every Shaper needs to die" aspect really screams of diplomatic prowess.

 

The Rebels aren't interested in diplomacy, because they know the Shapers too well. There's no way in hell the Shapers would ever allow serviles to exist independently of Shapers, let alone Drayks and Drakons.

 

Quote:

Heck, the Shapers allowed a Rebel creation to join them.

 

If the Rebel Creation acts in the Shaper's best interests to put down the Rebellion.

 

It might also be a good time to point out that Jews served in the Nazi army. Guess the Nazi regime wasn't so intolerant after all!

 

Quote:

That doesn't sound like negotiation with the Shapers is impossible.

 

Are you obtuse?

[Dikiyoba]

Negotiating with a single lifecrafter isn't a step forward so much as "thinking about lifting a foot off the ground", and there was a lot of resistance to that. If the PC had died or Alwan had lost his authority for some reason, it might as well never have happened.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

Yeah, the "every Shaper needs to die" aspect really screams of diplomatic prowess.

The Rebels aren't interested in diplomacy, because they know the Shapers too well. There's no way in hell the Shapers would ever allow serviles to exist independently of Shapers, let alone Drayks and Drakons.

Hello! Rebel servile joining Shapers! Are we even playing the same game here?

Quote:

Quote:

Heck, the Shapers allowed a Rebel creation to join them.

If the Rebel Creation acts in the Shaper's best interests to put down the Rebellion.

Sort of like how the Rebellion allowed a Shaper to join them so long as he acted in their best interests to destroy the Shapers?

Quote:

It might also be a good time to point out that Jews served in the Nazi army. Guess the Nazi regime wasn't so intolerant after all!

Oh, god, it's Timidus all over again. For the record, it might be better if you left this can of worms unopened. The Rebellion can also be compared to the Nazi regime, along with a couple other unpleasant organizations.

Quote:

Quote:

That doesn't sound like negotiation with the Shapers is impossible.

Are you obtuse?

No, but I'm having my doubts about you.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Negotiating with a single lifecrafter isn't a step forward so much as "thinking about lifting a foot off the ground", and there was a lot of resistance to that. If the PC had died or Alwan had lost his authority for some reason, it might as well never have happened.

First off, Servile. Big difference. Secondly, there are several events throughout the Geneforge series that, if something different had occurred, might as well never have happened. Doesn't make them any less significant.

It occurs to me now just how intricate and convoluted the Geneforge web of events is.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

Quote:

Hello! Rebel servile joining Shapers! Are we even playing the same game here?

 

Hello! Joining the Shapers != living independently. And what the Shapers do in Geneforge 3 is hardly progress, as they have been doing that since Geneforge 1.

 

Quote:

Sort of like how the Rebellion allowed a Shaper to join them so long as he acted in their best interests to destroy the Shapers?

 

Um, yes? Wait, are you implying that the Drakons also engaged in negotiation with the Shapers when they allowed Lilita, Greta, and the PC from GF3 to join?

 

Quote:

The Rebellion can also be compared to the Nazi regime, along with a couple other unpleasant organizations.

 

I'm simply pointing out that even some of the most intolerant regimes on Earth allowed turncoats to work for them, despite the fact that said turncoat belonged to a group that the regime wished to destroy. My analogy is highly relevant.

 

Checkmate!

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

First off, Servile. Big difference.

One independent servile is well off, but the Shapers haven't budged on their stance towards the rest of the serviles and other intelligent creations and they don't seem likely to do so. (At least, not without further pressure from the war.)

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

Hello! Rebel servile joining Shapers! Are we even playing the same game here?

Hello! Joining the Shapers != living independently. And what the Shapers do in Geneforge 3 is hardly progress, as they have been doing that since Geneforge 1.

I thought we were talking about GF4? And if you just made a typo: so you admit it is progress.

Quote:

Quote:

Sort of like how the Rebellion allowed a Shaper to join them so long as he acted in their best interests to destroy the Shapers?

Um, yes? Wait, are you implying that the Drakons also engaged in negotiation with the Shapers when they allowed Lilita, Greta, and the PC from GF3 to join?

Yes. They used to. Once. Not now. Funnily enough, while the Shapers grow slightly more tolerant, it seems the Drakons grow slightly more tyrannical.

Quote:

Quote:

The Rebellion can also be compared to the Nazi regime, along with a couple other unpleasant organizations.

I'm simply pointing out that even some of the most intolerant regimes on Earth allowed turncoats to work for them, despite the fact that said turncoat belonged to a group that the regime wished to destroy. My analogy is highly relevant.

Checkmate!

Check, but not mate. It wasn't as if you just ran screaming into the Shaper camp, saying, "I want to join you and destroy the rebellion!" The Shapers actually reached out to you, and took a major risk in doing so.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Nioca

First off, Servile. Big difference.

One independent servile is well off, but the Shapers haven't budged on their stance towards the rest of the serviles and other intelligent creations and they don't seem likely to do so. (At least, not without further pressure from the war.)

Umm... that sort of contradicts itself, doesn't it? If they didn't change their stance at all towards serviles, you working with them would never have happened.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Umm... that sort of contradicts itself, doesn't it? If they didn't change their stance at all towards serviles, you working with them would never have happened.

They made an exception for one servile out of hundreds or thousands. And they made that exception for the sole purpose of crushing the Rebellion, so if the PC joins the Shapers and they succeed in that, they have absolutely no reason to make that exception ever again. Calling that progress is like marking out a foundation and calling that a fully-furnished house.

Dikiyoba.

[Acky]

The shapers only accepted the help of the servile-PC because the war had worn down and they were desparte to end the war. The second the war ends, there just became even more paranoied of outsiders learning thier secreats and even more cruel to there creations. The shapers haven't changed at the core. Just adjusted temperarely.

 

 

 

As for the post, i would go with the rebal ending. I want the trakovite ending but jeff keeps getting the war more out of hand and more brutal so history shows.....

 

I side with the rebals. I'd rather have a free armaggeden world then a peaceful enslaved one

 

O yeah, about "Queen Litalie" I really think that thats just a title she aquaired for killing so many shapers. If she proclaimed herself Queen, someone who'd of talked about it.

[Feo Takahari]

One thing that might be relevant to all this is that the Takers/rebels/general kill-the-shapers fanatics get more and more "good" with each iteration, while the shapers get more and more "evil"--seemingly not because their attitudes and tactics change much, but because each successive game devotes a little more thought to why the rebels are rebelling in the first place. G2 in particular was great in showing the thousands of small ways the shapers abuse their authority for personal gain, and by G4, we learn that they're only helping endangered civilians when those civilians have a lot of money to give them. The question is whether G5 will complete the shift, or, having presented all the evidence, leave it up to the player to decide not merely which side to join, but which side is closest to justice.

 

P.S. The later games also humanized the rebels more. By G4, we even had a drayk (Ozyss) who didn't make us want to kill him!

 

P.P.S. To get a better example of the phenomenon I'm talking about, compare Golden Sun to its first sequel. The protagonists of the former game try to prevent magic from being reinvented for fear it will be used to enslave the world. The latter is played from the perspective of their foes, and shows multiple reasons why magic must be brought back, for the sake of humanity and the planet. Geneforge is more subtle, and doesn't present either side as completely right or wrong, but there's definitely a noticeable shift.

 

P.P.P.S. By the way, I won't name anyone specific, but I would like to request that a few people posting here split hairs a little less. The best goal here is not proving one fictional side right or wrong, since each commits atrocities, but presenting compelling and truthful arguments for each, inasmuch as what we decide in our fiction is not without relation to what we decide in our lives, Grand Theft Auto notwithstanding.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Umm... that sort of contradicts itself, doesn't it? If they didn't change their stance at all towards serviles, you working with them would never have happened.

They made an exception for one servile out of hundreds or thousands. And they made that exception for the sole purpose of crushing the Rebellion, so if the PC joins the Shapers and they succeed in that, they have absolutely no reason to make that exception ever again. Calling that progress is like marking out a foundation and calling that a fully-furnished house.

No disrespect, Dikiyoba, but you're confusing progress with the end result. If the Shapers are so much as thinking of negotiating with one lowly servile, even if it's to crush the rebellion for independence for all creations (if you buy into that), it's progress. Unfortunately, it requires the rebels to remain a major threat, which is something that can't be risked.

Originally Posted By: Dragonlorddrakon

The shapers only accepted the help of the servile-PC because the war had worn down and they were desparte to end the war. The second the war ends, there just became even more paranoied of outsiders learning thier secreats and even more cruel to there creations. The shapers haven't changed at the core. Just adjusted temperarely.

Paranoid? Yes. Stricter? Yes (and, really, after the rebellion, who can blame them from wanting to stop it from happening again?). Crueler? Instead of flat out saying no to this, bring me a line from the game that said that. Do that, and I'll concede this point.

Quote:

I side with the rebals. I'd rather have a free armaggeden world then a peaceful enslaved one

Fair enough, but how do the Rebels fit into that? With the Drakons in the picture, the world will still be enslaved. It'll just be to different taskmasters, and over a desolate wasteland.

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

One thing that might be relevant to all this is that the Takers/rebels/general kill-the-shapers fanatics get more and more "good" with each iteration, while the shapers get more and more "evil"--seemingly not because their attitudes and tactics change much, but because each successive game devotes a little more thought to why the rebels are rebelling in the first place. G2 in particular was great in showing the thousands of small ways the shapers abuse their authority for personal gain, and by G4, we learn that they're only helping endangered civilians when those civilians have a lot of money to give them. The question is whether G5 will complete the shift, or, having presented all the evidence, leave it up to the player to decide not merely which side to join, but which side is closest to justice.

Feo, don't take this the wrong way, but what the heck are you talking about? The Shapers have been getting better with each consecutive game, and the Rebels have been getting worse. Heck, I didn't even support the Shapers and disown the Rebels until GF3 came out.

In GF1, the Shapers were a bunch of irresponsible genocidal evil egomaniacs who couldn't give a crap about creations, whilst the Takers were world-weary freedom fighters with a decent cause, a conscience, and a new ally. Whilst my first choice would be with the Awakened, in Shapers vs. Takers, the Takers had my full support.

In GF2, the Shapers were a bunch of genocidal evil egomaniacs with good intentions who couldn't give a crap about creations, whilst the Takers became desperate freedom fighters with a decent cause, and a new and dangerous ally that was leading them down the same road as the Shapers, but not far enough to be unfixable. Again, first choice lied with the Awakened, and again, in Shapers vs. Takers, I sided with the Takers. However, at this point, I was starting to become more hesitant.

In GF3, the Shapers were a bunch of egomaniacs trying to keep peace and order (albeit poorly), while the Rebels became vengeful anarchists bent on unseating the Shaper regime at any cost, but still trying to play fair. At this point, I started suspecting that the rebellion was becoming less about freeing creations and more about extracting vengeance. It was very hesitant, but it was at this point that I started to side with the Shapers.

In GF4, the Shapers became a bunch of egomaniacs enforcing peace, order, and responsibility, while the Rebels became a slavering bunch of bloodthirsty maniacs bent on unseating the Shaper regime to replace it with a Drakon one. This one confirmed my suspicions that the Rebellion no longer cared about freedom, and that they'd do anything to wipe the Shapers off the map. It also was when I realized that the Drakons are only a future generation of Shapers.

Quote:

P.P.P.S. By the way, I won't name anyone specific, but I would like to request that a few people posting here split hairs a little less. The best goal here is not proving one fictional side right or wrong, since each commits atrocities, but presenting compelling and truthful arguments for each, inasmuch as what we decide in our fiction is not without relation to what we decide in our lives, Grand Theft Auto notwithstanding.

Unfortunately for you, with a game this intricate, every last detail counts. Just be glad we aren't arguing wording and terminology. Well, other than this one point I'm trying to get across to Dikiyoba, anyway.

[Dikiyoba]

Quote:

No disrespect, Dikiyoba, but you're confusing progress with the end result. If the Shapers are so much as thinking of negotiating with one lowly servile, even if it's to crush the rebellion for independence for all creations (if you buy into that), it's progress. Unfortunately, it requires the rebels to remain a major threat, which is something that can't be risked.

Progress without an end result isn't really progress. If you've made progress on an essay by its due date but haven't finished it, you will get an F on it. If you decide to run a race but decide to drop out halfway through, you still lose the race. If you play a video game without ever saving and then die during the last boss fight, you will have to start all over from the beginning.

Dikiyoba.

[Feo Takahari]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

One thing that might be relevant to all this is that the Takers/rebels/general kill-the-shapers fanatics get more and more "good" with each iteration, while the shapers get more and more "evil"--seemingly not because their attitudes and tactics change much, but because each successive game devotes a little more thought to why the rebels are rebelling in the first place. G2 in particular was great in showing the thousands of small ways the shapers abuse their authority for personal gain, and by G4, we learn that they're only helping endangered civilians when those civilians have a lot of money to give them. The question is whether G5 will complete the shift, or, having presented all the evidence, leave it up to the player to decide not merely which side to join, but which side is closest to justice.

Feo, don't take this the wrong way, but what the heck are you talking about? The Shapers have been getting better with each consecutive game, and the Rebels have been getting worse. Heck, I didn't even support the Shapers and disown the Rebels until GF3 came out.

In GF1, the Shapers were a bunch of irresponsible genocidal evil egomaniacs who couldn't give a crap about creations, whilst the Takers were world-weary freedom fighters with a decent cause, a conscience, and a new ally. Whilst my first choice would be with the Awakened, in Shapers vs. Takers, the Takers had my full support.

In GF2, the Shapers were a bunch of genocidal evil egomaniacs with good intentions who couldn't give a crap about creations, whilst the Takers became desperate freedom fighters with a decent cause, and a new and dangerous ally that was leading them down the same road as the Shapers, but not far enough to be unfixable. Again, first choice lied with the Awakened, and again, in Shapers vs. Takers, I sided with the Takers. However, at this point, I was starting to become more hesitant.

In GF3, the Shapers were a bunch of egomaniacs trying to keep peace and order (albeit poorly), while the Rebels became vengeful anarchists bent on unseating the Shaper regime at any cost, but still trying to play fair. At this point, I started suspecting that the rebellion was becoming less about freeing creations and more about extracting vengeance. It was very hesitant, but it was at this point that I started to side with the Shapers.

In GF4, the Shapers became a bunch of egomaniacs enforcing peace, order, and responsibility, while the Rebels became a slavering bunch of bloodthirsty maniacs bent on unseating the Shaper regime to replace it with a Drakon one. This one confirmed my suspicions that the Rebellion no longer cared about freedom, and that they'd do anything to wipe the Shapers off the map. It also was when I realized that the Drakons are only a future generation of Shapers.

Sigh . . . maybe you're right. What I was thinking of was that in G1, the Takers are the fellows who want you to assassinate Ellrah, which in my mind is as bad as when Martin Luther King Jr. was shot. In G2, it's made more clear that they're doing what they have to in order to survive. In G3, you begin to get a lot of quests to protect innocents from them, but I'd say they actually get better because if you choose their side, they can give good arguments for what they're doing. (Litalia in particular has a great backstory, which I won't give away here for those who've only played as a Shaper.) In G4, things turn around because now that you're playing a rebel, you get all the quests to save innocents from slaughter at the hands of the Shapers. (Remember that little lake just east of Turabi Gate where they chase down and try to slaughter those unarmed fleeing serviles?) As for my saying that the Shapers get worse, in G1 the only one you actually meet is Goetsch (sic?) so you never get to see their impact on the people around them. In the later games you always have the opportunity to order shopkeepers to give you free goods, magicians to teach you free spells, and military quartermasters to give away all their minimal supplies, because you are Shaper and everyone else is subordinate to you, even though you're just some scrawny kid who happens to be an apprentice. (Or, if you play Dakro, you're some low-IQ musclehead, or at least low Intelligence compared to Strength.) By G3, it's pretty clear why the serviles aren't the only ones rebelling.

[Acky]

Do they fit perfectly, no. They fit better than the shapers or the trakovites though.

 

At least half of the rebelion wants freedom. The shapers want things to go back the way they were, even worse than it was. The Trakovites are hippie munky-butt turds who just annoy me every time they speak out against shapeing. You can't take away a science. Its human nature when we want something and we can't have it we just want it more. Shapeing would always continue. Besides, the shaper outsider way of life is so intertwined with shapeing that it would be like trying to take away electricity i this modern era. Ya know what would happen? Even more cival turmoil.

 

Thik about it. No town has ever sworn allegence to the shapers without shaper presence in the town or somewhere close by. Fort kentia in G3 no shapers in the fort but a whole school of shapers was just a little stroll down the road. Fort Wilton had a battalion of SHAPER creations in it. Therile colony swore allegince to the shapers cause they had an army stationed across the river. Every city thrived under shaper agraculture and protection. Outsiders beilive the shapers can fix anything with a wave of their hand. People can't function without the shapers.

 

Now take away electricity(shapeing) and see what hapens. Panics, riots, disorder. Everything starts to fall apart. Without Shapers to guide it, society starts to crumble. No ones on the same side anymore. Everyone goes out on their own, trying to create a civilization for ashes. If your not the apex your dead

 

Thats why I hate the trakovites. We had 2 world wars but that didn't stop us from makeing more weapons. They have one emensly destructive rebbelion and they wanna call it quiets one something thats worked for a little ove a millenia.

 

And the shapers didn't learn anything from this war. Even after all these dead bodies they just got more intolarent of insubordination, more paranoid of people stealing thier secreats and even more strickter of there creations, witch what started this whole mess in the first place.

 

Yes the drakons would replace the shapers but there is a slight chance(if its the trakovite ending) that they might be reasoned with even a little and might just become more like the drayks. Which is a good thing since the drayks are arragent but they are sane enough not to want to rule as the shapers.

 

So unless the two new factions apeal more to my beliefs, I'd be me free and insane before I was sane and not free

 

Nioca, I take cruel bake. I worded that wrong. I meant more along the lines strict

[Lord Safey]

What happens when you get people rebelling against the rebels. Simply put their are rebels and a sizable number of them too that don't like the drakons. A colony of cryodraks becomes so feed up with the drakons destroy one entrance into into the drakons research lab and block the other. The dryaks inside of the research lab are willing to help you fight the Unbound prototypes because they want a chance to fight a drakon in any form despite how suicidal it may seem.

A servile gives you a quest and pays you well for to see break into a drakons private quarters and see whats their and then is horrified when you tell him. Stating the Drakons and becoming just like the shapers. The whole non Drakon part the rebellion blantaly refuse to help the Drakons to rebuild the Unbound making equipment if you go with a trakovite ending. The Drakons are just 12 foot tall reptilian firebreathing shapers in disguise who are crazier to boot.

 

I think ultimely if you want peace and just you must follow the trakovite ending part way. I admit it don't support the banning shaper. However I think they can help bring the more moderates of both sides to the negotiating table. Eventually the extremist of both sides (shapers who remain intolerant and the drakons) will need to be destroyed.

[A less presumptuous name.]

tooooo many long quotes and such. the only thing i bothered to read really was the comparisons to the nazis. WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT THE SHAPER WORLD CANNOT BE COMPARED TO OURS, JUST LIKE NUKES AND SHAPPING!! STOP TRYING!!