3D Graphics in Blades...

Garrulous Glaahk · November 4, 2004

I know it sounds weird, but what if we could change the original terrain in BoE to be three dimensional? Is it even possible? Perhaps by modifying the Avernum graphics we could to something. I once saw a 3D monster graphic (Brett Bixler)so why can't we have 3D terrain?

Hatchling Cockatrice · November 4, 2004

The answer is "sort of". You can have either the X and the Y dimension or the X and the Z dimension, but not all three at once (or not very well). Some sequences (like the Nephil dream in Redemption or the Vault of Chutes and Ladders in Adventurers' Club 2) play a little like platformers. Mostly, though, we've made do with standard 2D graphics for things like that.

Magnificent Ornk · November 4, 2004

Didn't, uh, Demon Island II have a 3D dungeon or something?

Rotghroth Rhapsody · November 4, 2004

Since both are really two dimensional, the conception of "three dimensional" is in the mind of the player.

As such, I, personally, find the Avernum games to be more of a distraction. Maybe I'm weak minded, or maybe I just prefer more logical layouts.

Regardless, I much prefer the X - Y graphics and have no desire to play the Avernum games, nor would I play scenarios laid out that way for the BoE system, simply because I don't like them, even if they were available.

That's probably why the two systems exist, separately, because there are different likes and dislikes.

Please don't misunderstand my statement here. I'm not "knocking" the idea if it gained support. I just don't think it would be practical to put X - Z layouts in the BoE series any more than putting the X - Y games in the BoA series.

Easygoing Eyebeast · November 4, 2004

The 3D dungeon in Demon Island II in some way has X, Y, and Z dimensions. You're climbing ladders (Z) between platforms (X and Y) with special art to further the illusion that it is actually three-dimensional.

Ineffable Wingbolt · November 4, 2004

You could do this, but it would have to be a direct overhead view, not the Avernum overhead& side view.

The best thing I can think of to describe this is a square within a square, with diagonal lines connection the corners of the outer square to the corners of the inner square.

The inner square is the floor, the outer square is the (transparent) ceiling, and the stuff in between are the walls.

I really don't think it would look that great, but I've seen other games that do this.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 5, 2004

What if wall terrain looked something like this?

k0vnd

Colored in of course. And smaller. Like mentioned earlier, Avernum graphics are not really 3D. Would it also be possible to take original Avernum graphics and overwrite them to the terrain files in BoE? I am currently working on a set of 3D wall terrain. Just as an expirement. If the graphics turned out well, it would not be illegal to distribute them, would it?

(My computer will not bring the picture up. Can you all see it?)

Magnificent Ornk · November 5, 2004

I can see the picture. And of course if you make good custom graphics for BoE, you can make them available however you see fit. Since the BoA graphics are freely available anyway, I don't think it would be a problem if they were based on those, either.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 5, 2004

Ok, now I need the help of all you expert scenario makers out there. I need to make a change terrain node when the party steps into a room. In Avernum, the wall shrinks, or moves out of the way so you can see the part of the room obstructed by the wall in the first place. I would like to do the same, but I don't know how. I also need the wall to pop back up when the party leaves the room. How do you do this?

PS I am really thinking about throwing these new 3D graphics in a scenario I am working on. If anybody would like to help (I would really appreciate it)I can send what I have so far. I am just making a template so I can make everything else. One more question... how do you efficiently place doors on these 3D walls?

Chittering Clawbug · November 7, 2004

i don't know if you realize this, however in order make the wall graphics efficient, you would also have to make the floor "3D" and the characters, and you could just play avernum.

a 3D tileset within a 2D environment will just not work correctly. you could make it look alright, but never as proffesional as the crappy graphics of the game originally were. vice versa it could work, but only in cartoon movies.

besides that, in avernum you have a slanted square. in exile you have a perfect square, which means that you have to work inside of it. all the graphics would have to take up more then 1 square to actually look 3D. it is an interesting concept, but i doubt, a probable one.

Magnificent Ornk · November 7, 2004

I will be blunt- not even remotely worth it. You'd burn up so many nodes so quickly that you couldn't get anything done.

One thing I can see happening is this- towns can have two "portions," an outdoors and indoors setting, wherein the outdoor section has the walls put up and roof terrains making 3d buildings, with the indoors section using regular old 2d displays.

Hatchling Cockatrice · November 7, 2004

I think it could be done without too many nodes, but it'd burn a lot of terrain types, which are even more precious.

Easygoing Eyebeast · November 7, 2004

Quote:

Originally written by Mad Mezzulah:
Ok, now I need the help of all you expert scenario makers out there. I need to make a change terrain node when the party steps into a room. In Avernum, the wall shrinks, or moves out of the way so you can see the part of the room obstructed by the wall in the first place. I would like to do the same, but I don't know how. I also need the wall to pop back up when the party leaves the room. How do you do this?

Okay, set a node at the door to check whether SDF (x,x) is set to 1 or not. If not, call a change terrain node that turns the wall section into floor, and then set the flag to 1. If the flag is set to 1, call a change terrain node to change it back to wall again, since the party is leaving, and then set the flag back to 0.

EDIT: Er, you might want to add a looking block, too.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 8, 2004

That is a good idea TM, instead of nodes, just change the town whenever you walk through the door. This is what is what I have so far:

kc8b5

I used the file TER3 and just drew over it. If I keep it up, do you think it is even worth it to keep on going? Thuryl aptly said that terrain spaces are precious. I don't know if I would be able to this without taking half of them up. If anyone has any suggestions, or wants to contribute, please do.

Easygoing Eyebeast · November 8, 2004

If you want my honest opinion, I say just play BoA. But if not, you're going to have to come up with _tons_of_custom_graphics.

Magnificent Ornk · November 8, 2004

Make them custom graphics and just overwrite all of the existing walls. It shouldn't be too much of a terrain space turnover.

Hatchling Cockatrice · November 8, 2004

Yeah, but the only reasonable way to make the walls appear and disappear when walking in and out of houses is through Transform Rectangle nodes. That means you'll need a significant number of new floor terrains; one for every wall terrain.

Tenderfoot Thahd · November 14, 2004

you should make these graphics for a different game. 3d is cool, but BoE isn't set up for them. while your at it though... i would like to see animated creatures and charactors. your walls look cool though.

"... if i only had a brain." the scare crow in the wizard of ozz

Kyshakk Koan · November 14, 2004

Just play BoA already.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 14, 2004

Well, I my order for BoA is on its way to Seattle. I am wondering, is it even worth it to move on? People are saying the BoE engine isn't built for the 3D thing. Well, Avernum did it on a 2D surface so I am seeking a way to do it with BoE. Once I get BoA, I might try to convert some of the graphics, that is if anyone cares, or wants them.

EDIT: Can someone please help, if you care. This project may be a walking time bomb, but if anyone has any interest, just email me.

Also, how do you make roofs on this?

Kyshakk Koan · November 14, 2004

Quote:

Originally written by Marquis of Corrumbous:
Well, I my order for BoA is on its way to Seattle. I am wondering, is it even worth it to move on? People are saying the BoE engine isn't built for the 3D thing. Well, Avernum did it on a 2D surface so I am seeking a way to do it with BoE. Once I get BoA, I might try to convert some of the graphics, that is if anyone cares, or wants them.

EDIT: Can someone please help, if you care. This project may be a walking time bomb, but if anyone has any interest, just email me.

Also, how do you make roofs on this?

You can't without a lot of transform nodes. You'd be out of nodes before you were done.

What I want to know is--why bother? You can't do it satisfactorily and still have a working game come out of it.

And BTW, BoA graphics do NOT port well to BoE. I've tried.

EDIT:

And for how Avernum did 3D in 2D:

Isometric. The 45-degree viewpoint allows depth.

Straight-on viewpoint does not, to any satisfactory degree. Basic geometry and a little common sense go a long way...

Garrulous Glaahk · November 14, 2004

Well, TM said that a solution to the node burning problem is to make a node changing the town. One would be with walls up, and the other with walls down.

And the point? Well, I personally love BoE. The only downside is, the graphics. For being 2D, they are not bad, but don't you think it would be cool to have a sort-of-avernum graphics and throw Quickfire on an innocent town? I do.

EDIT: By shrinking avernum graphics, it could be done. And by twisting the graphics, you can create the 45- degree thing - correct?

Magnificent Ornk · November 15, 2004

Dude, just make a BoA scenario that incorporates BoE-type spells. It would be so much easier....

Well, if you can pull it off, more power to you. The problem you might run into is that the party will always be 2D, unless you modify core files, in which case Spiderweb will declare your scenario illegal and will not host it (which may or may not matter — Corporeus faced this).

Garrulous Glaahk · November 15, 2004

Whoa. You can make BoE spells in BoE? Cool...

I think I'll just drop this. It is just really pointless now...

Kyshakk Koan · November 15, 2004

Quote:

Originally written by YooDoo Man:
Well, TM said that a solution to the node burning problem is to make a node changing the town. One would be with walls up, and the other with walls down.

Oh, yes! Let's use a horribly inefficient system to do something pathetically easy in a far superior system. In the words of the Guinness hamster-mouse-thing, "BRILLIANT!"

Quote:

[/qb]
And the point? Well, I personally love BoE. The only downside is, the graphics. For being 2D, they are not bad, but don't you think it would be cool to have a sort-of-avernum graphics and throw Quickfire on an innocent town? I do.[/qb]

Actually, to do that, you'd have to have the entire town in one map. Which, if you were to use TM's suggestion, you couldn't do.

BRILLIANT!

Quote:

EDIT: By shrinking avernum graphics, it could be done. And by twisting the graphics, you can create the 45- degree thing - correct?

No, you would have horribly distorted blobs or, in the case of floor terrains, square, 2D terrains.

Get BoA--it does what you want to do. The downside is that you actually have to invest some time in scenario-making, but hey, if I finish my node system that won't even be necessary.

Understated Ur-Drakon · November 15, 2004

Arenax, he said he wasn't going to do it. No need to be rude.

While BoA is more powerful, the two engines are rather different. If you like the Exile engine and not the Avernum engine, then why switch to BoA?

Kyshakk Koan · November 15, 2004

(I did. I don't even have BoE anymore.)

I'm trying to understand the mindset. If you're going to use buggy, outdated, inefficient, and clumsy tools--why are you trying to expand them to do things that fairly stable, up-to-date, (note I don't say anything about inefficient, JV's code frightens small children and gives passing dogs seizures), and pretty slick tools already do?

It's especially funny when you suggest uses for this that can't be done.

Square peg. Round hole.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 15, 2004

Well, I do like Exile, but the Avernum thing is not that bad. I have just been dabbling with Avernum 1 and I am having fun so far. I don't really want to "switch" I just want to "expand" a little. BoA is taking over as the big bully on campus and I would like to be a part of it while it is still a little fresh. I don't want to abandon BoE though. It just seemed, originally, cool to make some 3D graphics. At first, I thought it could be done with just 1 terrain space, and would just replace all the 2D graphics with the 3D ones and instantly have a 3D game. It obviously did not turn out that way.

Kyshakk Koan · November 15, 2004

Quote:

Originally written by YooDoo Man:
Well, I do like Exile, but the Avernum thing is not that bad. I have just been dabbling with Avernum 1 and I am having fun so far. I don't really want to "switch" I just want to "expand" a little. BoA is taking over as the big bully on campus and I would like to be a part of it while it is still a little fresh. I don't want to abandon BoE though. It just seemed, originally, cool to make some 3D graphics. At first, I thought it could be done with just 1 terrain space, and would just replace all the 2D graphics with the 3D ones and instantly have a 3D game. It obviously did not turn out that way.

Hey, it was always worth a shot. I tried something similar a long time ago.

If you're on PC, YooDoo, I've been working on software to make it easier for newbies to get into it. Get it here.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 15, 2004

Thanks Arenax. My original moniker was Wham Bam Shizam, so folks just call me WBS.

I am having a little trouble unstuffing the file. I unzip it, and try to run the program, however, I get an error message. Do I need to put the program in the Avernum folder?

Hatchling Cockatrice · November 16, 2004

Quote:

Originally written by Arenax:
I'm trying to understand the mindset. If you're going to use buggy, outdated, inefficient, and clumsy tools--why are you trying to expand them to do things that fairly stable, up-to-date, (note I don't say anything about inefficient, JV's code frightens small children and gives passing dogs seizures), and pretty slick tools already do?

Why do people climb Mt. Everest without oxygen? Why do people make robots out of junk? Why do people play RPGs without cheating?

Garrulous Glaahk · November 16, 2004

BoE > BoA, actually.

Kyshakk Koan · November 16, 2004

YooDoo: Nah, they should both go anywhere just fine.

Thuryl: People do that stuff because it's more challenging. BoE is node-based. It does things for you. That's not a challenge.

TGM: Keep drinkin' that koolaid.

Hatchling Cockatrice · November 16, 2004

The challenge comes in doing things that seem as if they can't be done, or doing things that can be done in a new way. For example, alchemy in BoE kind of sucks, because potions can be bought and most of their effects can be duplicated with spells anyway.

In designing my soon-to-be-released scenario, I wanted the player to be forced to use alchemy, and so found a way to make it useful and indeed necessary. Creator also created a scenario (Areni) based around alchemy, and implemented it in a completely different way.

Basically, the fun is in making things do things they were never really meant to do. It's a little like those guys who proved Minesweeper was Turing complete by implementing Boolean logic gates in it.

Rotghroth Rhapsody · November 17, 2004

Do you have a link on that? It sounds intriguing for a time when there is nothing to be done.

Hatchling Cockatrice · November 17, 2004

The Minesweeper thing? Here:

http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/R.W.Kaye/minesw/minesw.htm

Kyshakk Koan · November 17, 2004

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
The challenge comes in doing things that seem as if they can't be done, or doing things that can be done in a new way. For example, alchemy in BoE kind of sucks, because potions can be bought and most of their effects can be duplicated with spells anyway.

In designing my soon-to-be-released scenario, I wanted the player to be forced to use alchemy, and so found a way to make it useful and indeed necessary. Creator also created a scenario (Areni) based around alchemy, and implemented it in a completely different way.

Basically, the fun is in making things do things they were never really meant to do. It's a little like those guys who proved Minesweeper was Turing complete by implementing Boolean logic gates in it.

This is the mindset that really doesn't make sense to me. You'd rather use tools that are, more or less, garbage (I mean more the BoE editor and less the game itself), to do "stuff that seem as if they can't be done," when you can just do them in something that is effective.

...Why? The "challenge" doesn't make sense; doing something well is a challenge I can see, but when you can do something far better using a system that isn't all that different, calling that a challenge seems rather quixotic instead.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 17, 2004

Quote:

TGM:
BoE > BoA, actually.

Quote:

Arenax:
TGM: Keep drinkin' that koolaid.

I'm not allowed to have a personal opinion? New members aren't required to COMPLETELY SCREW THEMSELVES UP here, you know. Just leave this Blades of EXILE forum, if the game, in your opinion, is sucky.

Oh, in conclusion,

[added the pic, yay!]

Kyshakk Koan · November 17, 2004

Quote:

Originally written by

:

Quote:

TGM:
BoE > BoA, actually.

Quote:

Arenax:
TGM: Keep drinkin' that koolaid.

I'm not allowed to have a personal opinion? New members aren't required to COMPLETELY SCREW THEMSELVES UP here, you know. Just leave this Blades of EXILE forum, if the game, in your opinion, is sucky.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. But I am likewise entitled to my opinion of your opinion.

So take a nice good look at that picture and see who it really refers to.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 17, 2004

TGM was merely trying to say that if you don't like BoE, don't come to the forum. Correct, TGM? I don't think he was whining Arenax.

Rotghroth Rhapsody · November 17, 2004

Well it depends on which pic was being refered to. I think that it was the one calling Arenax a n00b which then got changed to the whiny one. But hey it was worth the chance to be able to reasonably defend TGM's actions for once. -?-

Garrulous Glaahk · November 18, 2004

I didn't see the first pic, but even so, you can't really call TGM a noob.

Rotghroth Rhapsody · November 18, 2004

I guess it doesn't depend then but rather what Arenax said made more sense in the context of the first one.

Back to the topic though it really is not the benefit of the challenge that is fun but the part where you overcome it no matter the reward. The reward just determines which challenges to take on- For really difficult things the motivation of a reward at the end does not motivate as much as the desire to beat the the challenge, at least for me

Garrulous Glaahk · November 18, 2004

Not to mention that BoA is ugly, the Avernum games are not fun, and buying BoA would put more money in Jeff Vogel's pocket that he does not deserve.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 18, 2004

Arenax fails at both mockery and thinking. Suggesting you to leave a forum DEDICATED TO A GAME YOU DISLIKE AND KEEP ON DISSING isn't whining.

Kyshakk Koan · November 19, 2004

Quote:

Originally written by

:
Arenax fails at both mockery and thinking. Suggesting you to leave a forum DEDICATED TO A GAME YOU DISLIKE AND KEEP ON DISSING isn't whining.

I like BoE perfectly well. It was great for its time It's just that it's become rather worthless in comparison to BoA.

The idea that you're entitled to tell people what to do is hilarious.

(And for the record--I was referring to both pictures. TGM is a newbie, and he's also a whiner.)

Garrulous Glaahk · November 19, 2004

I wouldn't actually consider myself a newbie, dear member #5181.. Oh, unless you actually are a secondary account of a member who's been here longer than me (= your member number is less than 1098, and you're not a WELL known and member (ie. Kel, Aran, Stugie, etc.).

Also, flaming The Misterhood is quite bad an idea. Things like that tend to cause massive flame wars, in which both sides get shot to pieces.

Quote:

The idea that you're entitled to tell people what to do is hilarious.

I've ORDERED you to leave BoE forum, now? Learn to read. To SUGGEST ain't even close to ORDERING/FORCING in my dictionary.

So, some cheese with the whine?

Kyshakk Koan · November 19, 2004

Quote:

Originally written by

:
I wouldn't actually consider myself a newbie, dear member #5181.. Oh, unless you actually are a secondary account of a member who's been here longer than me (= your member number is less than 1098, and you're not a WELL known and member (ie. Kel, Aran, Stugie, etc.).

I was around about six years ago as Arenax. I was here when Akhronath and Aceron were around; I was around Malkeera well before SW opened its boards.

Quote:

Also, flaming The Misterhood is quite bad an idea. Things like that tend to cause massive flame wars, in which both sides get shot to pieces.

And that bothers me...why?

Quote:

The idea that you're entitled to tell people what to do is hilarious.

I've ORDERED you to leave BoE forum, now? Learn to read. To SUGGEST ain't even close to ORDERING/FORCING in my dictionary.

Are you not telling others what to do? Ordering and suggesting are both telling others what to do.

Quote:

So, some cheese with the whine?

Sorry, lactose-intolerant.

Garrulous Glaahk · November 19, 2004

On sedond thought, nothing. Let the man keep his dreams. ^^

Hatchling Cockatrice · November 19, 2004

TGM has been around constantly for years, and most cheeses contain little or no lactose.

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3D Graphics in Blades...

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