Relative ages?

[Erika Maroonmark]

I'm interested in how old all the salient mages (Erika, Solberg, Patrick, &c) are in relation to each other, i.e. are any of them close enough in age to have gone to school together or anything? (Is this even known in the canon?) Just curious… and for a scenario I'm thinking of writing if I ever get BoX…

[the Great Potato]

There are the five mages exiled together:

 

Erika

Solberg

Patrick

Rone

Linda

 

I'd say that Erika and Linda are probably the youngest, followed by Patrick and Solberg, and Rone would be the oldest.

[Randomizer]

If you go through Avernum/Exile 1 there are a few mages mentioned as apprentices to the main group of Erika and Solberg, X and Patrick that formed the first triad. Rone was also from that group but served in the Castle. I think Linda was a later group with the other mages at the Tower of Magi.

[Kelandon]

Rone's memoirs in the Castle in A1 say that Rone, Patrick, and Erika were exiled together after being "at the wrong end of a political struggle in the Mages' Guild." They fought Grah-Hoth with "a large band of warriors and a small cadre of mage apprentices" — no mention of Solberg or Linda yet.

 

Patrick mentions that Patrick, Erika, and Solberg were part of the first Triad. Solberg has therefore arrived by that point.

 

I can't find anything on Linda's history, though.

 

X's talking description in A1 indicates that he is "middle-aged," whatever that means for a mage. Patrick is described as "a tired and bent old man." Erika is described as "piercingly beautiful," but there's no indication of age. Solberg is described as "aging" and "bald."

 

And hey! Solberg and X both have cobra staffs! I never noticed that before.

[Aran]

Appearances are probably deceiving. Erika has mastered transformation sufficiently to look what she wants like, I'm sure, and spells that hide age are popular among sorceresses anyway.

 

The question why male wizards never seem to use them is similar to the question why men don't wear makeup. (besides, that "old man look" really makes you look wise and powerful)

 

--

 

That doesn't mean Erika is as old or older than the others, of course. It would be uncommon for one so relatively young to gain enough power to become the effective leader of a faction - Garzahd didn't curse Solberg or Rone after all - but I suppose someone as powerful as Erika is quite uncommon anyway.

[Mab]

Still, there was an Erika among the staff of the Skylark Vale school. A center closed 130 years before BoA.

And she is quite possibly the very same Erika in Avernum, for one of the "crafts" in the School of Magery was cave trees, one of the things the five gave to the avernites.

[Aran]

Wouldn't be impossible, time-wise. The School of Magery was cleansed in 844 IE. (from EE), and it was closed around 721 IE.

 

Erika was Exiled (should this now by "Avernized"?) in 776, amd 55 years is plenty of time to go from a mere teaching position to the foremost archmage of the age.

 

But assuming that she had to be at least 30 when Skylark was closed down (mage apprenticeships take long), That would place her birth back in the 7th century - 691 IE. She would have lived to a ripe age of 140 years before her death in 833 IE at the hands of Rentar-Ihrno.

 

Wow...

[the Great Potato]

I'm about to go dumpster diving (aka looking through text dumps of the games), but here's some stuff beforehand:

 

Linda was not one of the five mages exiled together - Aimee was, though.

 

X is much younger than those five, possibly even born in Exile.

 

Okay, I'd revise my original post to organize the ages like this:

 

Aimee

Erika?

Rone/Solberg

Erika?

Patrick

 

This would depend on whether or not Erika was the same mage from skylark vale or not.

 

EDIT: Aran, what happened to slarty's text dumps? They're gone!

[Ephesos]

Aimee? Did she go planeswalker-esque before being exiled, or after it?

 

Personally, I had always wondered just what happened to her. She definitely could've helped turn the tide of any of the Avernum conflicts.

[the Great Potato]

She was always a seer on the surface too. She disappears after Exile I, though, and I can't remember if she makes a cameo in Exile II.

 

It would be interesting if she played a part in Avernum 5, though.

[nikki.]

Quote:

Originally written by the Great Potato:
She was always a seer on the surface too. She disappears after Exile I, though, and I can't remember if she makes a cameo in Exile II.

In A2 she leaves a spellbook behind in the northern caves which teaches the party Dispell Barrier, if memory serves, although she doesn't actually appear.

[Dintiradan]

By Kelandon:

Quote:

And hey! Solberg and X both have cobra staffs! I never noticed that before.

I believe all Triad members get the standard issue snake staff. The real question: does Drakey have one?

 

--------------------

All your snake staff are belong to the DL.

[Aran]

Quote:

Originally written by the Great Potato:

EDIT: Aran, what happened to slarty's text dumps? They're gone!

One of the dangers of a public FTP server: Anyone can delete stuff.

But Slarty didn't upload these; he sent them to me, so I still have the original files (yes, I do have backups as well...). I've uploaded them again.

http://stuff.ermarian.net/slartucker/dump/

[Drakefyre]

Micah says Linda and Solberg were part of the group that led the assault on Akhronath.

[John S]

Quote:

Originally written by Drow:

Quote:

Originally written by the Great Potato:

EDIT: Aran, what happened to slarty's text dumps? They're gone!

One of the dangers of a public FTP server: Anyone can delete stuff.

But Slarty didn't upload these; he sent them to me, so I still have the original files (yes, I do have backups as well...). I've uploaded them again.

http://stuff.ermarian.net/slartucker/dump/

Should people who are using your webspace be worried about other people messing around with their files?

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

The order of agesgoes like this:

 

Patrick

Rone

Me (Solberg)

Aimee

Erika

 

Erika, even though the youngest, was what you might call a 'child prodigy'. Her power surpassed ours and was pretty close to Garzahds. Hope that you find this helpfull.

[Retlaw May]

Do we really know if she wasn't the equal of Garzahds? And even if he was stronger, wasn't it only because he consorted with demons? And as for power what are the rankings between the three great mages: Erika, Garzahds, and Rentar-Ihrno?

My guess:

Erika

Rentar-Ihrno

Garzahds

And how about among the (lesser) great mages: Patrick, Solberg, Linda, X, Rone, and (add any if I forgot some).

My guess:

X

Linda

Rone

Solberg

Patrick

And while we are at it, is Athron or Khoth more powerful?

My guess=Khoth

Also, I wouldn't be too surprised if Erika was 100+ years old, I mean, she was the greatest of the human mages.

[*i]

Rentar-Ihrno is probably eldest of the group primarily because Vahnatai live a very long time.

 

The ranking of the dragons in power at the time of A1:

 

Motrax

Athron

Pyrog

Khoth

Sulfras

 

Motrax is the eldest of the bunch.

[Drakefyre]

But by Exile III, Sulfras is clearly the most powerful dragon. I'd rank them (from strongest to weakest): Sulfras, Athron, Pyrog, Khoth, Motrax.

 

As for the "lesser" mages, I'd go: Rone, Linda, Solberg, X, Patrick, Aimee.

 

For stronger mages I'd agree with you - Erika, Rentar, Garzahd.

[Randomizer]

Garzhad was mentioned as being less powerful than even Solberg and Patrick, but he was a better politician. He got Hawthorne to exile the more powerful mages. His claim to power was the defensive magics that protected him until a bunch of adventurers disrupted them.

[Drakefyre]

And as Avernum 2 "shows", made a pact with demons.

 

EDIT: I prefer Exile II, where the generally accepted strategy was just to mindduel him out of SP.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Drakefyre:
EDIT: I prefer Exile II, where the generally accepted strategy was just to mindduel him out of SP.

Or just let him cast spells until he runs himself out of SP, then mindduel him to finish him off. You don't have to carry around so many smoky crystals that way.

Or, heck, just beat him to death. It's not that much slower.

[Drayk Armitage]

It's pointless to compare the power levels of most of those mages, because they specialized in different areas of magic . Aimee and Patrick were better scriers, Solberg was a master minddueler. That goes for other mages, too -- Mahdavi knew more about teleportation. That said, Erika was obviously stronger than the others, and Rentar-Ihrno and Garzahd seem to be closer to her level.

 

Erika and Rentar were both capable of transforming entire species of plants and animals in ways that would endure naturally. NO ONE else in game canon has ever done that (except for X doing comparatively simple work with it), so I'd put them above Garzahd.

 

The description of the duel between Erika and Rentar-Ihrno clearly implies that Erika's command of magic was slightly superior to Rentar's.

 

Because of X's work with transformation, his second-to-few capacity for teaching magic, and his apparent lack of susceptibility to aging (shared with Erika but not Solberg, Rone, or Patrick) I'd put him a step above the others. Somewhere in there should also go the dragons. Garzahd was apparently able to outmagick Sulfras; otherwise they seem to have similar capabilities to the best human mages (Athron scries like Aimee or Erika) but more of them. So I'd say

 

1. Erika

2. Rentar-Ihrno

3. Garzahd

4. X, Dragons (most; not Pyrog, certainly), probably a number of Vahnatai

5. Other big name magi -- Solberg, Patrick, Rone, Aimee, Linda, Mahdavi, Enla, Elderan, and so on. Perhaps the strongest, most venerable liches and vampires -- Vahkohs.

6. Powerful one trick ponies -- Pathass, Mairwen, Silvario, Seles, Thompson, and the like. General mages of strong, but not top-level power -- Kelner.

 

As for ages:

The Five were exiled in 776. Patrick didn't extend his life magically, and he survived until at least 823 (maybe a bit more, I don't have the dumps here) even in Exile where life expectancy was clearly shorter. However, he and the others were established mages when they were exiled. I'm going to guess Patrick was about 30-35. I'll also guess that all of the Five were of similar ages, give or take a decade. Given Erika's temperament, I can't see her considering herself a "colleague" of a mage who is both weaker and significantly younger than her. (OTOH, perhaps she was a little gentler *before* she was exiled and cursed and had to fight hordes of demons.) Garzahd is supposed to be of a similar age.

 

X joined the triad a long time after its founding, and at least a few years before 817 (=E/A1). 800 seems reasonable, but even if it was as late as 810, that leaves precious little time for him to have been born in Exile and grow up and study magic. Plus, even in 817 and 823 there were very few children in Exile, and fewer adults who had grown up there.

 

Mahdavi was described as young, I think, though that could be magi-makeup. She doesn't strike me as the makeup type, though. Kelner was young in 817, an apprentice. Silverio was an apprentice in 779, and still spry 45 years later. Apprentices must be young...

 

Altogether I'd say some ages look something like this, circa E/A 1/2, and then circa A4.

 

The Five, Garzahd - 70-75, 105-110 or dead

Micah - 70, dead

Silverio - 65, dead

X, Linda - 50, 85 or dead

Mahdavi, Enla, Mairwen - 30, 65 or dead

Kelner - 20, 55

Prazac - 5, 40

 

Originally written by Drow:

But Slarty didn't upload these; he sent them to me, so I still have the original files (yes, I do have backups as well...). I've uploaded them again.

Thank goodness, because *I* don't have them anymore. My hard drive fried while it was in storage this summer. @#$@#$...

[Drakefyre]

Prazac was in her early teens during Exile II - I want to say 12. Micah was around 65 at the time of Exile II (and presumably had Rone's help in staying alive). Patrick was very old but around in 823, and he died a few years later. Linda was Exiled with the Five, and she helped take down the sliths and Grah-Hoth in 779.

 

Okay, Linda was part of the Five. So was Aimee. That makes them Six. Which was why we removed Aimee because she wasn't involved in the founding of Avernum. So back to what it was before!

[Drayk Armitage]

Copied from EE, where I just posted this. Perhaps others here will have input.

 

Aimee vs. Linda

I think we had this discussion a long time ago... anyway, the fact is that there is contradicting evidence in the games as to who the fifth exilee was. The early games refer to Aimee among the five, while A4 (and maybe soem earlier Avernums? I don't remember) seems to have inconsistently retconned Linda into the early cave magic. However, some of those references -- praticularly the one to her as part of the Akhronath assault -- sound like goofs.

 

IMHO, there is a large mass of situational evidence on Aimee's side. Given Aimee's reclusiveness and her lack of eminently practical or powerful magic, it makes no sense that Erika AND Patrick AND Rone AND Solberg would be so close to her, and would talk about her as they do, without her having been part of the Five. There are also numerous statements like "then Linda came to the Tower"... if Linda had been one of the Five, those statements would make little sense, given that she would have been involved in the Tower's creation and would presumably have lived there since the beginning. And if Linda really was part of the assault on Akhronath, why is it that NOBODY -- not her, not Grah-Hoth, not Kelner, no one -- ever comments on that?

 

IMHO, it's safe to say that Aimee was in the Five and Linda was not. At any rate I think it's a mistake to state that Linda was a member; the evidence is too sketchy. --- Slarty 12:13, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

 

Retrieved from "http://encyclopedia.ermarian.net/wiki/Talk:The_Five"

[Drakefyre]

Exile III has Linda in the Five. Avernum 1 has Linda fighting Grah-Hoth.

[Randomizer]

Linda claims responsibilty for creating most (she claims all) of the plants that are credited to the Tower. She also used magic to bring the libraries of spell books down from the surface.

 

Linda seems to have been involved from the beginning.

[Drakefyre]

Well, parts of that are obvious exaggerations - the glowing moss is Vahnatai, Erika did cavewood trees, etc.

 

But I agree - she has been down for a long time.