g2 review - spoiler inside

[Lorn]

So, I’ve played and finished G2. I’m happy that I’ve played it, but I fear I won’t be buying G3 because as much as I liked G2, I feel like it has far too many issues for me. In fact, the bad outweighs the good and does so really exponentially.

1) My first gripe is that nothing you did in G1 truly matters. I guess that having consequences based on what how you decided to behave in the first game would be a huge spending in time, effort and money.

It’s not like the consequences of what happened in g1 should be instant – but I would say that having references to a powerhungry shaper that came from Sucia and people like Barzahl coming from there with stuff would make a nice reference. That is, if the player has decided to use the Geneforge in the end. The same can be said for Sholai ending and so on. I guess that I would have loved some references, rather than the story being already decided (it seems to me the ending chosen for G1 is player has decided to join obeyers, destroyed the geneforge and came back as a loyalist; or so I guess).

2) In the first game I felt like the protagonist. Truly, I get in and I’m kinda the center of the world because everyone is actually searching for a shaper and I can make a (true) difference for all the parties.. And I’m actually necessary, no matter what. They are not waiting for another shaper to come, because it is unlikely to happen.

In G2 I feel like mostly a guy that does errands for other people, unimportant to the best, with no respect being given because I’m just another gear for the many people that are already there. No one cares about me, but I’m supposed to care about the others. I couldn’t care less.

I will say that in G1, I wanted to discover Sucia Island not because I was told so, but because I wasn’t even sure that I could reach a boat. It was a matter of life and death.
If the path for a boat was clearer and easier (meaning that I didn’t have to get the nutrients required) I would have left before because I couldn’t care less about Sucia. The island is barred and I shouldn’t be here. And I’m hunted everywhere I go and I’m also a weak shaper.

Not even in the taker ending the geneforge can be used. You get augmented by the Drakon Rhakkas or what's his name and all it did in my game was open a new shop. Nice.

 

What is there for the protagonist? I guess that someone can be satisfied by being described as a God in the ending scenes. I couldn’t care less. I want to see a difference in game, wish to see these amazing powers everyone talks about.

As for now, my power is reaching level 20 (after many deaths) and being content having two augmented drayks and an incomplete (meaning that I can’t select all the stuff I want when making it) drayk, for a total of three drayks. Against 1500-2200 hp "bosses"/important mobs. Right.

 

3) I do not feel like that in this game the protagonist gets that stronger. I think part of the issue stems from the xp system in place, but in general, while playing, I felt like I was obscenely worse there than in G1.

For this reason I don’t even feel any push to explore the map, if not for finding Barzahl or what’s his name and see what he is up to.

Having to kill many mobs and getting no xp gets a little irksome, or at least it was to me. I felt the debuff on xp when exploring stuff even more impactful here, because I didn’t care about these zones. I didn’t care about the continent at all.

And then when I explore I don’t even get stronger... because my xp is siphoned out.

 

4) In G1, learning drayk meant that I was special. They were rare, portrayed to be rare, powerful, and you thought you unlocked some neat stuff. I can also remember my encounter with all of them and their quirk personality.

Here, it’s none of that. I play a shaper, get my three drayks and then try to kill strong stuff in normal difficulty, reloading when I fail. The system is obscenely rigged – it’s atrocious to see mobs with more than 1500 hp; but not only that, they have only 1500 hp if they don’t join you. Got what I’m talking about? The special Drayk that I was supposed to get for the takers. Around 1500 hp before joining me (that’s only if I attack him), 480 hp as soon as he joins me. Fair? Ok, for you it may be, for me it seems like the system is rigged to create a challenge to the expense of believability.

 

5) I have a strong impression that the issues above, with hp out of bounds, burning effects that can’t be healed and so on are simply the product of having to cater the game difficulty to Torment. My personal issue is not that one – it’s fair to do so.
My issue is that I’m pretty sure that it’s catered towards Torment with reloads.

Wanna know when a game is decently balanced? It’s when you take someone that is really expert and knows how to play it and he plays torment No-reload and can constantly (or at least, if he doesn’t mess up by doing weird stuff) reach endgame areas without having to reload. There are many games that allow this to happen. I play as Ironman many different games, but I would never do so in this game.

 

5) The game seems tailored toward time wasting you. Pherington (or what’s his name?) – you need to get a cauldron and some other stuff because otherwise he won’t deal with you.

Eass? Asks you to put a crystal inside a power pylon placed in a place where there are 15 pylons ready to get you, without the control actually deactivating them. Amazing.

I’ve got many examples, but I just said the two most blatant and painful to my playthrough.

 

After 6 months I replayed G1. I’m content to having played G2 once and I doubt very much that I will be replaying it. I will not buy G3.

I have to make one final note. I have to thank Slariton for his mods, that allowed me to waste less time while doing errands and fetch quest thanks to the double speed walking.
Also for his bedroll, allowing me not to quit each time the zone – I cannot imagine having to walk back at normal speed to the exit zones, go back to the city, summon stuff, walk back to the exact point I had stopped. I did it for a bit for “fairness” – it was painful to do with a double walking speed, it was a blessing to do all of the above simply by clicking bedroll. Thank God, so I didn’t waste all the time that it would be required otherwise.

Edited May 12 by Lorn

[Archaeolagent]

I'm glad you enjoyed the quality of life mods!

 

Some of these gripes I understand.  Some I think are harder to sympathize with, either because you've cherry-picked one non-representative example out of a massive game (1 fetch quest out of something like 60 non-fetch quests), or because your gripe is basically with the CRPG genre as a whole.

 

Regarding difficulty... the game has 4 difficulty levels.  You played on level 2, felt it was too hard at times, but didn't want to reduce the difficulty to level 1.  This makes it hard to sympathize with you when you say the system is "rigged" and too hard.  You aren't willing to use the full difficulty spectrum available to you, and instead complain that people who enjoy the high end of the difficulty spectrum should have that option cut off.  This seems irrational to me.  Why take away an option that other people are enjoying, that isn't forced on you?

[alhoon]

I am puzzled on how you ended up with just 3 drayks at level 20. You certainly have the essence for more, even if you don't buy a single point in essence mastery.

[Lorn]

Another time-wasting issue I had now: Rhakkus attacked me in Benerus-entry; I wounded him a bit then he fled - I couldn't catch him. Now I don't know if he is in Benerus-shaping or he is still hiding in the building. I cleansed the building, he is no where to be found.

Also, I find amazing that tactical positioning with your creations doesn't work, because no matter what, enemies will always be able to evade. So other time wasted trying to follow them.

@alhoon: I'm level 24 and I can't max the third drayk.

[Randomizer]

The game is specifically balanced for normal difficulty and harder difficulties are tested more to see if they are still possible. Almost all beta testers play through on normal difficulty and it sees the widest range of character builds.

 

There are some fights that are considered optional and some players won't be able to do them without having better party builds. This is the expert area, Gaza-Uss.

 

Required boss fights for quests sometimes have more than one way to win the fight. There are pacifist methods to kill Zakary, Barzhal, and the 3 Taker drays/drakins although they may require some planning to do them.

 

If you think some fights have too much health, you should have seen Jeff's mistake where a creation had 4000+ health due to a typo. It wasn't fixed for about 3 months because testers found it was doable.

1 minute ago, Lorn said:

Another time-wasting issue I had now: Rhakkus attacked me in Benerus-entry; I wounded him a bit then he fled - I couldn't catch him. Now I don't know if he is in Benerus-shaping or he is still hiding in the building. I cleansed the building, he is no where to be found.

Rhakkus fled to Shaping zone and was scripted to be hard to kill in the Entry zone.

[Magenta]

Maybe I am reading too much into some of your other posts, but it seems you prefer a game that is more structured and less open-ended. That's ok. Not everyone likes the same thing. But I have to disagree with some of your complaints. 

 

The game is NOT geared only for those who play on Torment. They work hard to be sure the game is balanced and winnable on all difficulty levels. I played on Easy when I first played the series years ago. I switched to Normal as I got better at facing the challenges. I rarely play anything more difficult than that. The mobs you speak of? My solo Agent is wiping them up with ease. My no-canister Shaper had a little more difficulty, but that was not because of the game - it was my self-imposed challenge, which limited the amount of training I could get. I still finished with a good ending. And I'm just a so-so player - I don't consider myself an expert. If you think the game is too difficult, you haven't given it a chance. There is some learning curve here. It takes some practice and trying things. To me, that's part of the fun.

 

As for the annoyances, I have not played a CRPG that did not have annoyances of one sort or another. They all do. If you are enjoying the game and the story, the annoyances don't bother you so much. 

 

What I disagree with the most is that there is nothing for the Protagonist. Quite the opposite - the game is all about the protagonist and the decisions you must make. I would suggest you play again and focus more on the story, but I think your mind is already made up.

Again, not everyone likes the same thing, and you are entitled to your opinion. As for me, this series is still my favorite of all the RPGs I have played.

[Jawaj]

I don't really understand the critique about the protagonist. What you do matters enormously, this standoff between the factions is going to blow up one way or the other and you decide where the chips fall. Is your problem that you're just less unique as a shaper and people pay less attention to you, at least at first? Well IMO that's a good thing, makes the world feel more developed that it doesn't solely revolve around you. You being the special center of attention was fine for an abandoned island scenario but wouldn't make sense when you're on the mainland in a populated area. You're just Shanti's apprentice and prove your importance gradually with time.

 

Every Geneforge game goes with some modified version of the previous game's endings. When the endings diverge in such opposite directions you can't really have saves carry over, the status quo at the start would be so different that it would basically be a different game.

 

You shouldn't trying to fully max out every creation. Go with a larger squad of partially-upgraded Drayks, throw some buff spells on them, and you'll have an easier time.

 

Bosses almost always have much more HP than you in RPGs, this is how the genre works. Also RPGs always have some diminishing return on experience. Scaling the amount required for next level is more common than reducing XP gained, but the practical difference isn't that big - in a game where you'll need 50000 XP for the next level eventually, the 5 XP you still get in the early areas is effectively zero anyway or very close. Nintendo’s Paper Mario is one that scales xp gained down like Geneforge, hardly a punishing hardcore series.

Edited May 12 by Jawaj

[alhoon]

Yeap, the protagonist is the person that decides the war, and thus, the future of Terrestia. 

GLORY TO THE TAKERS!

[Hyperion703]

2 hours ago, Jawaj said:

You shouldn't trying to fully max out every creation.

This 100%. I'm in my fourth playthrough. I've partied with dozens of creations on the reg. I have never made a maxed-out creation. I think my six Ur-Drakons had five upgrades each, that's the most I've ever used and that was at endgame. Most of the game, I averaged about three upgrades. Something like that. Never made it to level 24 like OP. So, if you're rocking just three Drayks by level 24, you're doing something seriously wrong.

 

How in the world do you even get to level 24 without doing Gaza-Uss? Did OP do those levels?

Edited May 12 by Hyperion703

[Archaeolagent]

OP didn't get to level 24, OP got to level 20.  Based on the screenshot in another thread, OP has skipped over a lot of the zones in the game.

[Jawaj]

[posted in wrong topic, mod can delete]

Edited May 12 by Jawaj

[Hyperion703]

@Slariton He stated above that he's level 24 now (and can't max the third drayk).

 

Edited May 12 by Hyperion703

[Archaeolagent]

Ah, whoops.  In that case... I share your question.

[alhoon]

20 minutes ago, Slariton said:

OP didn't get to level 24, OP got to level 20.  Based on the screenshot in another thread, OP has skipped over a lot of the zones in the game.

Level 20 without a single dot in essence mastery? Yeah, if you try to buy every level and upgrade... that won't be enough essence. 

 

But @Lorn: honestly, having two drayks at  50 essence each and a third drayk at 25 essence is MUCH worse than having 4 drayks at 26-30 essence each.  

 

  

20 minutes ago, Slariton said:

OP didn't get to level 24, OP got to level 20.  Based on the screenshot in another thread, OP has skipped over a lot of the zones in the game.

 

  

9 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

@Slariton He stated above that he's level 24 now (and can't max the third drayk).

 

That can't be right, though. Even if 24 is possible (and that's an if from what I have seen) it would require a ton of work to get there and preparation. 

@Lorn was that a typo? Did you mean 20? 

 

 

Edited May 12 by alhoon

[Genernumlover]

7 hours ago, Lorn said:

So, I’ve played and finished G2. I’m happy that I’ve played it, but I fear I won’t be buying G3 because as much as I liked G2, I feel like it has far too many issues for me. In fact, the bad outweighs the good and does so really exponentially.

1) My first gripe is that nothing you did in G1 truly matters. I guess that having consequences based on what how you decided to behave in the first game would be a huge spending in time, effort and money.

It’s not like the consequences of what happened in g1 should be instant – but I would say that having references to a powerhungry shaper that came from Sucia and people like Barzahl coming from there with stuff would make a nice reference. That is, if the player has decided to use the Geneforge in the end. The same can be said for Sholai ending and so on. I guess that I would have loved some references, rather than the story being already decided (it seems to me the ending chosen for G1 is player has decided to join obeyers, destroyed the geneforge and came back as a loyalist; or so I guess).

2) In the first game I felt like the protagonist. Truly, I get in and I’m kinda the center of the world because everyone is actually searching for a shaper and I can make a (true) difference for all the parties.. And I’m actually necessary, no matter what. They are not waiting for another shaper to come, because it is unlikely to happen.

In G2 I feel like mostly a guy that does errands for other people, unimportant to the best, with no respect being given because I’m just another gear for the many people that are already there. No one cares about me, but I’m supposed to care about the others. I couldn’t care less.

I will say that in G1, I wanted to discover Sucia Island not because I was told so, but because I wasn’t even sure that I could reach a boat. It was a matter of life and death.
If the path for a boat was clearer and easier (meaning that I didn’t have to get the nutrients required) I would have left before because I couldn’t care less about Sucia. The island is barred and I shouldn’t be here. And I’m hunted everywhere I go and I’m also a weak shaper.

Not even in the taker ending the geneforge can be used. You get augmented by the Drakon Rhakkas or what's his name and all it did in my game was open a new shop. Nice.

 

What is there for the protagonist? I guess that someone can be satisfied by being described as a God in the ending scenes. I couldn’t care less. I want to see a difference in game, wish to see these amazing powers everyone talks about.

As for now, my power is reaching level 20 (after many deaths) and being content having two augmented drayks and an incomplete (meaning that I can’t select all the stuff I want when making it) drayk, for a total of three drayks. Against 1500-2200 hp "bosses"/important mobs. Right.

 

3) I do not feel like that in this game the protagonist gets that stronger. I think part of the issue stems from the xp system in place, but in general, while playing, I felt like I was obscenely worse there than in G1.

 

The problem with open ended games is the sequels. The manufacturer has to pick an ending and stick with it. That means that player choice from one game to the other can be partially disregarded in order to keep the plot of the series going. I mean, if the Shaper of Geneforge 2 was an Awakened character the series would have been completely different. This sort of plot necessity showed up in Avadon as well. For an outside example of this, that was very egregious, Baldur's Gate. People were agog over the M-rated BGIII, but they obliterated most of what the player did in Baldur's Gate I and II in order to remake a lot of the same plot with a modern gaming engine.

 

Have you tried Avernum? That may be more to your taste. The games propelled you towards one major ending, with numerous smaller plot choices that defined your characters.

 

The stats and powers of Geneforge 2: Infestation are tighter than they were in the previous games. If you don't do the right builds, you can feel like you are constantly playing catch up. What sort of build did you go for?

 

 

[Lorn]

21 hours ago, Magenta said:

The game is NOT geared only for those who play on Torment. They work hard to be sure the game is balanced and winnable on all difficulty levels. I played on Easy when I first played the series years ago. I switched to Normal as I got better at facing the challenges. I rarely play anything more difficult than that. The mobs you speak of? My solo Agent is wiping them up with ease. My no-canister Shaper had a little more difficulty, but that was not because of the game - it was my self-imposed challenge, which limited the amount of training I could get. I still finished with a good ending. And I'm just a so-so player - I don't consider myself an expert. If you think the game is too difficult, you haven't given it a chance. There is some learning curve here. It takes some practice and trying things. To me, that's part of the fun.

 

As for the annoyances, I have not played a CRPG that did not have annoyances of one sort or another. They all do. If you are enjoying the game and the story, the annoyances don't bother you so much. 

 

What I disagree with the most is that there is nothing for the Protagonist. Quite the opposite - the game is all about the protagonist and the decisions you must make. I would suggest you play again and focus more on the story, but I think your mind is already made up.

Again, not everyone likes the same thing, and you are entitled to your opinion. As for me, this series is still my favorite of all the RPGs I have played.

I don't think the game is too difficult. I think that the way the shaper protagonist improves feels way less impactful and significant than in G1. But that's a matter of my feeling. I only used one canister in my current playthrough. Or two. 

 

20 hours ago, Jawaj said:

I don't really understand the critique about the protagonist. What you do matters enormously, this standoff between the factions is going to blow up one way or the other and you decide where the chips fall. Is your problem that you're just less unique as a shaper and people pay less attention to you, at least at first? Well IMO that's a good thing, makes the world feel more developed that it doesn't solely revolve around you. You being the special center of attention was fine for an abandoned island scenario but wouldn't make sense when you're on the mainland in a populated area. You're just Shanti's apprentice and prove your importance gradually with time.

 

Every Geneforge game goes with some modified version of the previous game's endings. When the endings diverge in such opposite directions you can't really have saves carry over, the status quo at the start would be so different that it would basically be a different game.

 

You shouldn't trying to fully max out every creation. Go with a larger squad of partially-upgraded Drayks, throw some buff spells on them, and you'll have an easier time.

 

Bosses almost always have much more HP than you in RPGs, this is how the genre works. Also RPGs always have some diminishing return on experience. Scaling the amount required for next level is more common than reducing XP gained, but the practical difference isn't that big - in a game where you'll need 50000 XP for the next level eventually, the 5 XP you still get in the early areas is effectively zero anyway or very close. Nintendo’s Paper Mario is one that scales xp gained down like Geneforge, hardly a punishing hardcore series.

I will provide another perspective - I don't want to be the center of the world, but I want to be pulled in a way that I wish to:
- stay in the place
- feel forced to stay
- understand what are the uber power at works and try to get them too, if possible.

 

G2 for me failed in all of the above, while G1 provided a satisfying answer

- stay in the place: there is power here and I wish to partake in it;
- feel forced to stay: there is a way to get out , but it's very hard to to reach

- why is everyone looking for me and what's the reason

20 hours ago, alhoon said:

Yeap, the protagonist is the person that decides the war, and thus, the future of Terrestia. 

GLORY TO THE TAKERS!

Their ending is very disappointing. 

17 hours ago, Hyperion703 said:

This 100%. I'm in my fourth playthrough. I've partied with dozens of creations on the reg. I have never made a maxed-out creation. I think my six Ur-Drakons had five upgrades each, that's the most I've ever used and that was at endgame. Most of the game, I averaged about three upgrades. Something like that. Never made it to level 24 like OP. So, if you're rocking just three Drayks by level 24, you're doing something seriously wrong.

 

How in the world do you even get to level 24 without doing Gaza-Uss? Did OP do those levels?

https://imgur.com/a/lxIDDWI 
 

17 hours ago, Slariton said:

OP didn't get to level 24, OP got to level 20.  Based on the screenshot in another thread, OP has skipped over a lot of the zones in the game.

I've got a saves in a spot where while game was incomplete, the map was clean and I could fast travel with no issue, 

 

17 hours ago, Slariton said:

Ah, whoops.  In that case... I share your question.

 

17 hours ago, alhoon said:

Level 20 without a single dot in essence mastery? Yeah, if you try to buy every level and upgrade... that won't be enough essence. 

 

But @Lorn: honestly, having two drayks at  50 essence each and a third drayk at 25 essence is MUCH worse than having 4 drayks at 26-30 essence each.  

 

  

 

That can't be right, though. Even if 24 is possible (and that's an if from what I have seen) it would require a ton of work to get there and preparation. 

@Lorn was that a typo? Did you mean 20? 

 

 

I listened to you and didn't level up all the drayks this time. I left behind the two heart for them. So I could get a forth. I guess that's okay...

15 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

The stats and powers of Geneforge 2: Infestation are tighter than they were in the previous games. If you don't do the right builds, you can feel like you are constantly playing catch up. What sort of build did you go for?

 

 

Above I published a link. My build was as generic as possible. Anyway, 

[Archaeolagent]

Wow.  As much as I advocate focusing on one shaping skill... just a couple points into Essence Mastery (you avoided all the free points somehow) would get you multiple extra drayks.

 

But I'm even more puzzled by your complete avoidance of magic skills.  Blessing and Mental magic are incredibly strong, and if you're refusing to use them at all, that explains some of the difficulty you've faced.  You talked about what the game was balanced around.  Well the game was definitely balanced around, e.g., the player having access to the Speed spell!  That only takes a couple of points.  And to Dominate, and Airshock.

 

You have a very, very specific way you want to play.  Both in terms of how you progress through the game, in terms of how you want mechanics to work, in terms of stat investment, etc.  And more power to you, I think that's awesome.  But you can't then turn around and complain that the game isn't custom-tailored to your extremely specific personalized approach...

[Lorn]

Ahaha, I didn't even know that you were supposed to use magic. I'm a shaper, all I care about is having a high shaping skill :P

And this way of playing originated after I played and miserably failed geneforge 1 the first time I played it, where I simply splitted all the points between the different creations. Then I discovered from you that after the third rank the magic would work the same as 20, changing only the duration (if I understood well). 

 

So with the lack of informations, I simply avoided magic and focused on shaping. Also, does speed spell improve hasted creatures? I still don't know, there is 0 information about that. And I do not wish to experiment in playing, while informations such as that one should be readily available to the player.

[Archaeolagent]

What in the world gave you the idea that you weren't "supposed to" use it?

 

Here's a question.  What CRPGs do you actually enjoy, without any complaints?  I've been scratching my head trying to figure out what game would actually satisfy you, and I'm not sure I can think of any.

[alhoon]

27 minutes ago, Lorn said:

https://imgur.com/a/lxIDDWI 

Fire Shaping 22???? 

Forget Drayks. You could go around with a bunch of Fyoras of death. With the buff on Haste they would be level 25 at the very least. 

 

How do you even... I mean... 22 Fire Shaping?!   

 

Also yes, Haste allows a greater chance for your creations to get a 2nd action, even if they have haste spec. 

 

Regardless, just 2 point of Essence Mastery would give you 52 extra essence. And there are free points of Essence Mastery. But Still, you played a very very specific way. You were mercilessly pumping Fire Shaping 

 

 

Lorewise, if your character dies from a heart attack, his creations going rogue would be doombringers. Since Control works as it works and you have high leadership you are not under threat. BUT a single charm one one Drayk and your character would be toast. 

Edited May 13 by alhoon

[Magenta]

@Lorn Did you get the hintbook that was published with the game? It is well worth the few extra $$ and might have given you the sense of purpose and direction that you seem to feel is missing. And please understand that the comments here are not meant to put you down in any way. I think we are just trying to understand your position.

 

1 hour ago, Lorn said:

I will provide another perspective - I don't want to be the center of the world, but I want to be pulled in a way that I wish to:
- stay in the place
- feel forced to stay
- understand what are the uber power at works and try to get them too, if possible.

When I play this game, I want to stay in the place until I find out what the heck is going on with all the factions. In fact, I feel forced to stay until I can determine what needs to be done about it. To do that, I have to understand what are the uber powers...etc. In this game, there are multiple uber powers and they are at war with each other. This puts you in the unique position of being able to influence the fate of the Known World. You get to decide who wins. How can that not be enticing?

 

I still think you should try again with that in mind, and with what you learned from the first run. This game is deep and complex, and yes, there is some learning curve. Replaying is always fun. I choose a different class and join a different faction when I replay. There are four factions plus unaligned, so I may have to play five times!

[Randomizer]

That its really pumping up one stat to attack.

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, Randomizer said:

That its really pumping up one stat to attack.

Well, it pays off dividents. I doubt there's anything in the game that can reliably hit his 31-33 level Drayks. And I think Lorn said he pumps them with Essence too. When he had two Drayks, they were probably lvl 38 or something. Sure, the Shaper is a pushover. Like, he could die in the backswing of a Drayk's claw attack. 

But one of his Drayks could stand toe-to-toe with an Unbound. They were level 40 or something, IIRC. 

Edited May 13 by alhoon

[Hyperion703]

5 hours ago, Randomizer said:

That its really pumping up one stat to attack.

Tbf, my shaper ended the game at level 23 with 19 in Fire Shaping. If I were to 100% optimize my build, I know I'd be able to find 1-2 unneeded points elsewhere to add to that. Plus the one more level (to 24), assuming I'd put the point in FS, and I'd have 22 as well. Pretty easy to do for a super specialized shaper imo.

 

What perplexes me is the low Essence Mastery. Though mine is equally wild in the other direction (18!). 

[alhoon]

23 level with 18 essence Mastery? What did you do with that? Full Ur-Drakon / Eyebeast at all increases? 

[Hyperion703]

2 hours ago, alhoon said:

23 level with 18 essence Mastery? What did you do with that? Full Ur-Drakon / Eyebeast at all increases? 

Six level 33 Ur-Drakons. 😀 Together with my shaper, I named them after the seven demon princes of Hell. 

 

Fun!

[alhoon]

Did you find challenge towards the end going with that build? I mean, there are not many things that can hit those more than 20% of the time and they have a ton of hp and probably do on average 200 damage before the DoT. 

[Hyperion703]

2 hours ago, alhoon said:

Did you find challenge towards the end going with that build?

Not after level 11 or so. I started with a few Drakons and worked my way up. I walked through pretty much everything after that.

 

2 hours ago, alhoon said:

there are not many things that can hit those more than 20% of the time

Correct.

 

2 hours ago, alhoon said:

they have a ton of hp

432 to be exact.

 

2 hours ago, alhoon said:

probably do on average 200 damage before the DoT.

About 300+ unblessed.

[Lorn]

On 5/13/2024 at 7:03 PM, Slariton said:

Wow.  As much as I advocate focusing on one shaping skill... just a couple points into Essence Mastery (you avoided all the free points somehow) would get you multiple extra drayks.

 

But I'm even more puzzled by your complete avoidance of magic skills.  Blessing and Mental magic are incredibly strong, and if you're refusing to use them at all, that explains some of the difficulty you've faced.  You talked about what the game was balanced around.  Well the game was definitely balanced around, e.g., the player having access to the Speed spell!  That only takes a couple of points.  And to Dominate, and Airshock.

 

You have a very, very specific way you want to play.  Both in terms of how you progress through the game, in terms of how you want mechanics to work, in terms of stat investment, etc.  And more power to you, I think that's awesome.  But you can't then turn around and complain that the game isn't custom-tailored to your extremely specific personalized approach...

I thought the way I played was supposed to be the best shaper possible. I'm kinda thinking that I even pumped the stats for mechanic and leadership too much, considering that I've got the passive mod from you. So I guess that if I power played correctly the fire shaping would be a couple points higher.

When I played Geneforge 1 remastered, I found all spell sucked for my summons. If I pump fire that much, blessings or haste are left behind. 

 

What are the spells I'm supposed to be using? Really curious.

On 5/13/2024 at 7:28 PM, Slariton said:

What in the world gave you the idea that you weren't "supposed to" use it?

 

Here's a question.  What CRPGs do you actually enjoy, without any complaints?  I've been scratching my head trying to figure out what game would actually satisfy you, and I'm not sure I can think of any.

They are not satisfying. 

In g1 I used war blessing and it gave +10% to hit chance and damage. If my creations do, as they do, around 200 dmg, it's useless. 20 more does nothing when you got 4 creations at most. 

 

For the speed spell, I didn't know if it applied as well, given that the creations are already hasted. So I never used it, even if I noticed that I got "Hasted!" sometimes. But the lack of description made me not get them anymore. And it's still a +10% if I'm not wrong for the speed. I could be. I cannot track this kind of stuff, it should be inside the spell description but I didn't get this time and played no canister because I find most of them really underwhelming.

By the way, the games I've played and finished and enjoy very much

Planescape torment
BG1 and 2
NWN 2: MoTB
Morrowind (if Rpg can be called)
Arcanum

If something else comes to my mind I'll edit this
 

 

On 5/13/2024 at 7:40 PM, alhoon said:

Fire Shaping 22???? 

Forget Drayks. You could go around with a bunch of Fyoras of death. With the buff on Haste they would be level 25 at the very least. 

 

How do you even... I mean... 22 Fire Shaping?!   

 

Also yes, Haste allows a greater chance for your creations to get a 2nd action, even if they have haste spec. 

 

Regardless, just 2 point of Essence Mastery would give you 52 extra essence. And there are free points of Essence Mastery. But Still, you played a very very specific way. You were mercilessly pumping Fire Shaping 

 

 

Lorewise, if your character dies from a heart attack, his creations going rogue would be doombringers. Since Control works as it works and you have high leadership you are not under threat. BUT a single charm one one Drayk and your character would be toast. 

It's a shame that there is no true relationship with the drayks. I would bet they would be awakened. I guess that I'm just a slaver. The issue is that you don't know the meaning of your relationship given that none of your creations speak to you; 

 

and it's actually worsened by the fact that mechanically you can't create them non stop, or I would. There is sadly no platform in game where you could actually start making so many of them so you would become a sort of father figure to them, always thinking what's best for them. Go figure.

 

In the first one, for sure, the best path for them would be the geneforge for the player and him killing the shapers. They would thank me, that's for sure. 

 

 

On 5/13/2024 at 8:15 PM, Magenta said:

@Lorn Did you get the hintbook that was published with the game? It is well worth the few extra $$ and might have given you the sense of purpose and direction that you seem to feel is missing. And please understand that the comments here are not meant to put you down in any way. I think we are just trying to understand your position.

 

When I play this game, I want to stay in the place until I find out what the heck is going on with all the factions. In fact, I feel forced to stay until I can determine what needs to be done about it. To do that, I have to understand what are the uber powers...etc. In this game, there are multiple uber powers and they are at war with each other. This puts you in the unique position of being able to influence the fate of the Known World. You get to decide who wins. How can that not be enticing?

 

I still think you should try again with that in mind, and with what you learned from the first run. This game is deep and complex, and yes, there is some learning curve. Replaying is always fun. I choose a different class and join a different faction when I replay. There are four factions plus unaligned, so I may have to play five times!

I will be getting it, thanks. And Magenta, thanks for your kindness <3

none of the comments has put me down. Everyone in this forum is very helpful and when I write wrong stuff eager to correct me, so I'm kinda grateful to be here.

As for the story, I guess you got hooked. I will give it another thought.

On 5/13/2024 at 8:33 PM, Randomizer said:

That its really pumping up one stat to attack.

 

On 5/13/2024 at 10:52 PM, alhoon said:

Well, it pays off dividents. I doubt there's anything in the game that can reliably hit his 31-33 level Drayks. And I think Lorn said he pumps them with Essence too. When he had two Drayks, they were probably lvl 38 or something. Sure, the Shaper is a pushover. Like, he could die in the backswing of a Drayk's claw attack. 

But one of his Drayks could stand toe-to-toe with an Unbound. They were level 40 or something, IIRC. 

Yes, my drayks are pretty cool.

On 5/14/2024 at 1:49 AM, Hyperion703 said:

Tbf, my shaper ended the game at level 23 with 19 in Fire Shaping. If I were to 100% optimize my build, I know I'd be able to find 1-2 unneeded points elsewhere to add to that. Plus the one more level (to 24), assuming I'd put the point in FS, and I'd have 22 as well. Pretty easy to do for a super specialized shaper imo.

 

What perplexes me is the low Essence Mastery. Though mine is equally wild in the other direction (18!). 

Did you pump essence mastery?

 

On 5/14/2024 at 6:10 AM, Hyperion703 said:

Six level 33 Ur-Drakons. 😀 Together with my shaper, I named them after the seven demon princes of Hell. 

 

Fun!

I wonder, wouldn't Drayks be technically better? :P

[Archaeolagent]

16 minutes ago, Lorn said:

I thought the way I played was supposed to be the best shaper possible. I'm kinda thinking that I even pumped the stats for mechanic and leadership too much, considering that I've got the passive mod from you. So I guess that if I power played correctly the fire shaping would be a couple points higher.

 

What are the spells I'm supposed to be using? Really curious.

 

Shaping skill is the central stat for a Shaper.  It's not the only stat.  "Best shaper possible" is always going to be a little subjective, but I've never seen "don't invest in spell skills at all" as advice, so it's interesting that you got that idea.  FWIW, here's the advice from my guide on steam:

 

Even as a Shaper, you don't need to invest every last skill point into shaping, but on higher difficulties, you'll want to be judicious. Shaping skill is your default target. Mechanics and Leadership can be done at 6 (you'll get more points from equipment later), and magic skills can be ignored except when you're ready to unlock a key spell (Group Heal, Mass Restore; Speed; Dominate; Airshock). Increase Essence Mastery as needed, but don't go crazy -- your PC level multiplies your total essence, rather than just adding to it, so it's OK to be patient there.
 

21 minutes ago, Lorn said:

When I played Geneforge 1 remastered, I found all spell sucked for my summons. If I pump fire that much, blessings or haste are left behind.

 

In g1 I used war blessing and it gave +10% to hit chance and damage. If my creations do, as they do, around 200 dmg, it's useless. 20 more does nothing when you got 4 creations at most. 

 

Speed is a flat 35% increase in average damage output for your creations.  (Even for creations with the v1.0.2 haste augment, it's still a 23% increase.)

Dominate removes an enemy and gives you a bonus ally.  It's temporary, but that can really turn the tides in the first few rounds of battle, when it matters most.

Airshock can potentially stun multiple enemies (in addition to damaging them).

War Blessing and Protection aren't massive effects, but you can cast them before combat begins, so there is no real drawback to using them.  10% is nothing to sneeze at -- Spiderweb games tend to involve stacking up lots of little bonuses until you find that you're very strong.  Do you also ignore charms and pieces of equipment that provide +10% damage bonuses?

 

Now it may be that playing on Normal, with very strong creations, you don't need these effects.  If you're steamrolling most enemies anyway, sure, no reason to bother casting these spells.  That doesn't mean the spells suck.  That means you're playing with a party that's stronger than your selected difficulty level, and as a result you've trivialized combat.

 

30 minutes ago, Lorn said:

By the way, the games I've played and finished and enjoy very much

Planescape torment
BG1 and 2
NWN 2: MoTB
Morrowind (if Rpg can be called)
Arcanum

 

Huh.  Spiderweb games certainly seem on-target then!  I dunno, you really feel like none of your complaints in this review apply to the above games?

[Lorn]

all the game I mentioned I played Ironman too (in fact, one day I would like to publish a channel with only this kind of challenges for these rpgs)

 

Are you referring to one of my complaints in particular? 
 

[alhoon]

7 hours ago, Lorn said:

By the way, the games I've played and finished and enjoy very much

Planescape torment
BG1 and 2
NWN 2: MoTB
Morrowind (if Rpg can be called)
Arcanum

You are a man of taste, I see. 

 

I haven't played Queen's Vlish but you may want to check it out. Especially considering the "Meh, I am a just an apprentice here" vibes. 

 

Moderators: Are we allowed to suggest non-Spiderweb games here? There are 1-2 that I think Lorn would enjoy. 

  

7 hours ago, Lorn said:

I would bet they would be awakened.

Actually, they are all Takers except one, I think. And that one is crazy. 

 

 

"There is sadly no platform in game where you could actually start making so many of them so you would become a sort of father figure to them, always thinking what's best for them." 

 

No, no! You lose control of them if they go too far, unless you have a strange and specific device. 

NPCs can hardly control more than 10-12 at a time. They just take control of non-rogue creations around if you talk to them. Even Barzhal uses his big machines to control the drayks! There is a dude in a game far ahead that claims he controls 41 creations through a technique of taking control of some for a tiny bit, soothing them, then going for the next bunch and then again another bunch. And I am pretty sure he is lying. For starters that's not "controling 41 creations" that's "I am responsible for 41 creations while I control 10-12 at a time". 

 

Drayks are also very difficult to control. GF1 and GF2 has control mechanics but they are ... benign. 
Remember how the cockatrice was harder to control in GF1? That should be with Gazers, Drakons, Drayks and Rotdhizons. 

 

And, while I am Awakened... Drayks are not as grateful for their existence as Serviles are. You would not be considered a Father figure. An ally perhaps, but you wouldn't get a bunch of "Obeyer Drayks". 

Last but not least: "Always thinking what's best for them" Welcome to the Awakened! (But making dozens of them is not what's the best for them; they would run out of things to eat and hoard. Overpopulation.)

 

  

7 hours ago, Lorn said:

I wonder, wouldn't Drayks be technically better? 😛

 

When you have 18 essence mastery, thus a crapton of Essence? No. The Ur-Drakons are very expensive essence-wise. But if he had 6 Drayks he would just have like 200 essence sitting in the bank. With 18 essence Mastery, he probably has x3.5 more essence than you do. 

Edited May 16 by alhoon

[Hyperion703]

9 hours ago, Lorn said:

Did you pump essence mastery?

 

Hell yeah. I pumped it all night long until the morning light. It kept saying I needed to construct additional pylons. So...

 

10 hours ago, Lorn said:

I wonder, wouldn't Drayks be technically better? 😛

Uh oh. You're making Leviathan and Belphegor angry... Don't know how much longer I can hold them off...

[Lorn]

I still dislike the fact that there is no badass ending for Takers.

I explain myself more clearly: they are mad, power-hungry, crazy as hell. You joining them is the worst choice you could do as a shaper.

I would have loved if there was a way to transfer your conscience into a drakon, then go into the geneforge yourself. Basically, overthrowing the "leadership" of the current takers, then gut them all if there was a way. The true badass ending, not the "become a god in the slides".

[alhoon]

7 minutes ago, Lorn said:

 You joining them is the worst choice you could do as a shaper.
 

 

Is that a surprise? The reason to join the Shapers is if you are not a real Shaper, but a Lifecrafter. If you want power at the expense of your sanity, the evil Barzhites can offer that. If you want justice/revenge and an actual, working plan to overthrow the Shaper Empire instead of sitting in a valley for 50 years hoping you will be sitting in that valley for the next 50 years instead of being crushed, then you join the Takers. They need the power to fight the Shapers, not for its own sake. Honestly, their plan is much better than the naive approach of the Awakened that rely on the following Shapers: Tuldaric, Carnelian, Apprentice to hold off the entire Shaper Empire. 

Carnelian is insufficiently trained, the Apprentice is insufficiently trained and Tuldaric has gone mad and lost interest. Without the Rebels kicking the teeth out of hundreds of Shapers, without the Unbound and other ... unpleasant things that have to happen, you would never get Awakened-minded Astoria. The Awakened can get Zanzital and perhaps a tiiiiny few idealist, young, insufficiently trained Shapers that are willing to give up their place of power, their future and quite possibly their lives for justice. 

 

The Takers have a plan. The Awakened have a dream. 

Edited May 26 by alhoon

[Lorn]

In the end, if you read the awakened ending, you get that awakened are joined by Barzites and whoever is left. They also learn how to make canisters.

As for the takers being the worst choice, I would disagree for G1. There, they were almost the best choice. And they acted in a somewhat rational way, compared to the bloodlusted version available in g2. I would go as far as to say that they are very stereotyped compared to g1. 

[alhoon]

4 minutes ago, Lorn said:

In the end, if you read the awakened ending, you get that awakened are joined by Barzites and whoever is left. They also learn how to make canisters.

As for the takers being the worst choice, I would disagree for G1. There, they were almost the best choice. And they acted in a somewhat rational way, compared to the bloodlusted version available in g2. I would go as far as to say that they are very stereotyped compared to g1. 

 

Well, in my Awakened ending there will be no Barzhites left. 😉

Also, are you sure they are joined by the Barzhites and don't just raid the Barzhites for what they have of worth? If they DO learn now to make cannisters then things are better. But they also need the geneforge. They need to make Lifecrafters by the dozen. I will say it again: The Takers have a Plan. The Awakened have a dream. But like all dreams, at some point, you need to ... awaken. 

[Lorn]

The thing is, the only difference between takers and Awakened is not the plan (they both rely on Drakon); is that takers also have the geneforge and can use it on all the drakons. That is way more important to me.

[alhoon]

5 minutes ago, Lorn said:

The thing is, the only difference between takers and Awakened is not the plan (they both rely on Drakon); is that takers also have the geneforge and can use it on all the drakons. That is way more important to me.

 

The Taker plan are the raw power offered by the Geneforge, the ability to make drakons that can Shape which is a huge difference to Drakons that can fly. Furthermore, the Taker plan is expansion and overthrowing the Shaper Empire - while they are very civil to commons from what the commons in Zhass-Uss tell me.

The Awakened goal is to defend their mountain for long enough for the Shapers to accept them as Commons. That is not a plan, that's a dream. 

The Shapers have no reason at all to ever deal with the Awakened, even if the siege of that isolated mountain takes 3 centuries. They can keep sending fresh Creations and newly trained guardians to the mountain to 'earn their spurs' for eternity and keep knowledge of what is happening there under wraps. 

[Genernumlover]

51 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

Is that a surprise? The reason to join the Shapers is if you are not a real Shaper, but a Lifecrafter. If you want power at the expense of your sanity, the evil Barzhites can offer that. If you want justice/revenge and an actual, working plan to overthrow the Shaper Empire instead of sitting in a valley for 50 years hoping you will be sitting in that valley for the next 50 years instead of being crushed, then you join the Takers. They need the power to fight the Shapers, not for its own sake. Honestly, their plan is much better than the naive approach of the Awakened that rely on the following Shapers: Tuldaric, Carnelian, Apprentice to hold off the entire Shaper Empire. 

Carnelian is insufficiently trained, the Apprentice is insufficiently trained and Tuldaric has gone mad and lost interest. Without the Rebels kicking the teeth out of hundreds of Shapers, without the Unbound and other ... unpleasant things that have to happen, you would never get Awakened-minded Astoria. The Awakened can get Zanzital and perhaps a tiiiiny few idealist, young, insufficiently trained Shapers that are willing to give up their place of power, their future and quite possibly their lives for justice. 

 

The Takers have a plan. The Awakened have a dream. 

 

Put in spoilers for those who don't want more of the series to be revealed. This contains a lot of spoilers for the series. Don't read it unless you want to know how things go in upcoming games!

 

Spoiler

The Taker plan is genocidal. They want to unleash a war that will kill hundreds of thousands of people, and overthrow the Shaper Empire and replace it with a new order that they run. It is "Meet the new oppressor, just as bad as the old oppressor but in different ways." That is evident by the way they treat creations, and their hypocrisy in doing so. The protagonist remarks that they've adopted the cruelest practices of the Shapers, and they are willing to experiment on their own kind and other beings. They are going further into the horrors of Shaping than the Shapers themselves are, while paying lip service to creation rights.

 

The Takers oppose the Shapers because they oppress the serviles, Drayks, and other creations, and their idea is to punish the Shapers and become the new powerful order, the new oppressors. I know that you've played the series to the end, so you can see where the Taker ideas end up. They start oppressing the humans, serviles, and Drayks.

 

The Awakened idea is to protect the Awakened until the Shaper Empire gradually changes. They are relying on idealism, yes, but they are also more realistic in that they are seeking ways to survive. You can't force goodness and equality at sword point, and the Awakened know that. What the Awakened needed was to survive and have infiltrators and sympathizers work inside the Empire to reform it, think of Sencia in Drypeak. That would take time to work, decades, but it would also save hundreds of thousands of lives. Because of that, the Awakened ending of Geneforge 2 is really a tragic ending, it shows that the hero of Geneforge 2 had a chance to tilt the scales in the upcoming war. If there was a viable option besides Ghaldring, another faction, that could've either moderated the Rebels or given Shaper sympathizers a chance to reform the Empire.

 

As for Astoria, part of the point of her storyline was there was a chance for the Awakened ideas to come through in spite of the war. There was so much hatred on both sides that she needed ask a Drakon if peace was an option. After that, Astoria had to force the war into a stalemate and exterminate the extremists, Takers, in the Rebellion to enact her ideas. It is noteworthy that she stopped the extremist Shapers, but had Ghaldring killed outright. Ultimately the heirs to the Takers were the last obstacle to freedom and equality for creations.

 

Edited May 26 by Genernumlover

[alhoon]

Yeah, let's say I do not agree with your take in the spoiler. That's not what the TAKERS or even most of the REBELS were trying to do. You describe what the most powerful faction of the Rebellion - not the Takers - was kinda trying to do, and you paint it in much worse light than it actually was.

[Archaeolagent]

I agree with alhoon, at least to a degree.  The Takers are not around after G2, and while obviously they are the direct predecessor of the Rebels, there's very little direct cultural continuity between the Takers and the Rebels.  Also, neither group is particularly monolithic.

 

Astoria doesn't really represent Awakened ideals.  She represents pragmatism.  Obviously she's the G5 faction that the Awakened would find least repugnant, but she's not an idealist.

 

(Re spoilers, although I'm sympathetic to people who want to avoid spoilers, G5 came out 15 years ago, and these forums are full of posts that spoil things about later games in the series, because they have 20+ years of posts on them.  If you want to avoid spoilers, this forum is a bad place to be, and that's hard to change.)

[alhoon]

21 minutes ago, Drayk Armitage said:

If you want to avoid spoilers, this forum is a bad place to be, and that's hard to change.

I managed to avoid a ton of spoilers about early games for years. For starters I was O_O when I found out there was another Shaper in Sucia. And those pesky awakened I first met didn't say a word about me being the SECOND Shaper around. 

 

That circus band hiding in a cellar above a ton of pylons that killed my favorite Fyora, was clearly a later addition that served little purpose. 

Edited May 26 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

Alhoon, you played 15-year-old games in backwards order and expected everyone else to cater their independent conversations around you.  Frankly, it was ridiculous, and bringing that up definitely does not support the argument for avoiding spoilers.

[alhoon]

18 minutes ago, Drayk Armitage said:

Alhoon, you played 15-year-old games in backwards order and expected everyone else to cater their independent conversations around you.  Frankly, it was ridiculous, and bringing that up definitely does not support the argument for avoiding spoilers.

And yet, it was possible.  Which is my point. It does require some care, but it is possible. 

Edited May 26 by alhoon

[Genernumlover]

 

 

This is still marked with spoilers. I'm not adverse to posting them, as Drayk Armitage said, G5 was fifteen years ago and all spoilers are pretty old news, but I don't want to spoil things for Lorn, as I'm not certain how much he or she has played the series.

 

 

3 hours ago, alhoon said:

Yeah, let's say I do not agree with your take in the spoiler. That's not what the TAKERS or even most of the REBELS were trying to do. You describe what the most powerful faction of the Rebellion - not the Takers - was kinda trying to do, and you paint it in much worse light than it actually was.

Spoiler

 

You didn't actually refute any of my points beyond stating that I was exaggerating. I'm not. The Takers literally tell you that they want to overthrow and replace the Shapers with themselves. And their Drakons did freely experiment on their own kind and use the cruelest Shaper techniques freely. The protagonist says this outright when you attack Benerii-Uss. So too did the Drakon Rebels. The Unbound, who were the epitome of unstable creations, were originally Drakon stock. And the Drayks you meet in the later games are furious as to how they are being treated by the Drakons. In G5, you can also see the Drakons treating creations poorly. In a related trend, as we see in G4 and G5, the Unbound are roughly the equivalent of the Shaper's Final Sanction: a cleansing meant to exterminate everything in an area. The Shapers applied this to Sucia and Drypeak, while the Drakon Rebels were prepared to do it on the largest and most populated, by human and serviles, part of the Shaper Empire. So yes, the Takers and Drakon Rebels freely used the cruelest practices of the Shapers, and they did it in an, arguably, more prolific way than the Shapers themselves. This continuation of such monstrous techniques and tactics makes sense as Ghaldring is basically the living legacy of the Takers.

 

 

The majority of the Takers want most or all of the Shapers dead. The extremists are like Toivo. The majority of the human and creation Rebels want freedom but they are led by the extremist Drakons. Sadly the humans and creations are also willing to overlook the crimes of the Drakons if it means hurting the Shapers. Greta was willing to overlook the damage the Rebels were doing to the Ashen Isles and blamed the Shapers for it. That attitude started wearing off in G4 until she was willing to help kill Ghaldring in G5. The Drakon ending for G5 says that the humans and creations are watching the Drakons and are ready to rebel again as the Drakons are continuing to Shape themselves at the cost of their sanity, rather like the Barzites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26 by Genernumlover