Merging STR/AGI, Melee/Missile, new skill dedicated to Weapon Shaping? Make Agents and Guardians as good as Sorceress/Shock Trooper!

[Elerai]

So, I started playing with G5, and it had Sorceress and Shock Trooper. Those two classes are everything I've wanted Guardians and Agents to be. As it stands, Agents are sub-par because of Action Economy; if you invest in spells, you never want to invest into any weapon skills except Parry/Evasion. Same is true for Guardians, heavy investment into melee/missile damage just gets outclasssed by creation damage, and you can do only one, which will never be creations because more skill point costs.

Both shares a common problem: Weapon attacks are dependant on two stats instead of 1 like Intelligence/Essency Mastery (in G5, it was even worse, Intelligence also gave Essence). They are also dependant on two skills, and they aren't even that cheap to raise. QA is worse than spellcraft, and Parry/Evasion, the only decent-ish skill, needs heavy investment (+ Endurance investment) to be good. Skipping melee is painful because rare thorns are rare; and skipping ranged makes certain fights harder, reducing your total tactical options, especially as you don't have a Thahd like leap (I really recommend adding one to Weapon Shaping).

 

I propose merging the two weapon skills into one: Weaponmastery (+8% to weapon damage), two physical skills into one: Physique (+10 Carry Weight, +5% Weapon Damage, +1 Initiative), no Evasion from this because I think it'd be too much. This frees up a slot dedicated to the new weapon shaping skills. I suggest it be focused on quick self-buffs and buffed weapon attacks. The damage from the weapon attacks would scale from Weaponmastery + Physique, and the bonus damage from the Weapon Spell would be increased by this skill (+25% Damage becoming +100% at high levels of Weapon Shaping); getting the triple-skill boost damage spells already get (Intelligence + Spellcraft + Battle Magic).

 

While Agents might still be subpar, if the self-buffs present in this tree is unique and strong enough compared to Blessing Magic (like Lifedrain, Battle Frenzy, for example), it will be a worthwhile investment, and Parry/Evasion is decent on Agents too; letting them have a unique niche compared to Sorceress. Same for Guardians, they will be super-warriors since they wouldn't need blessing magic at all; even Mental Magic if Guardians' Roar remains on the Weapon Shaping tree; and spend their extra essence to shape. Guardians are already better than any of the previous games; I just am sad Agents can't really use the Weapon Shaping because it gets outclassed by Blessing Magic when boosted by Spellcraft and high INT.

Edited April 19 by Elerai

[alhoon]

Agents are supposed to be somewhat harder to play, I think. 

[Elerai]

Not really. Earlygame, sure; but around level 8+ your playstyle becomes pretty binary. Easy fights, spam Airshock. Hard fights, spam Dominate.

 

Anyways, its not about difficulty. I want diversity in build paths. Max BM + SC + INT, with 5 MM and 4 BLM is really the only option Agents get. They can't focus on creations, aside from maybe a Gazer or two; Daze + ST damage isn't great on them as BM is very AOE + DOT focused, and they definitely don't want anything to do with Melee/Missile. Sure, Dominating stuff all around is a cool playstyle, but I wouldn't call it hard or diverse.

 

Hell, I'd even want some diversity in shaping. With how accuracy works, not focusing a single shaping tree is suboptimal. If creation accuracy was adjusted a bit to not be as dependant on shaping levels, multi-shaping can again be a legit option. Admittedly, in G5 shaping skills were a bit weak since creation level bonus from skills were massively outclassed by base creation levels, but maybe we can get a better compromise?

[Randomizer]

Agents start out weak because heir spell damage is lower than weapon or creation damage.  But after a while they are much stronger than all but a Shaper with several creations. The main drawback is that when stunned or slowed, you can't do anything that round unlike a Shaper that usually has several active creations.

 

Guardians are now much stronger with weapon shaping giving them reliable area attacks. Still not as powerful as an agent or Shaper, but one on one they'll beat an enemy and can deal with even a swarm.

[alhoon]

Are Agents seriously easier than Guardians? 

 

As for stun-locks for Agent, early game you have 2 free creations that you can get with leadership. Then, even if expensive, you could afford to raise a bit one Shaper class and get a decent creation. Then, you could rush and grab Xander which is quite decent at level 12. 

[Randomizer]

Agents are slightly easier because the Cloak of the And lets you cast airshock long before you can learn the spell from a trainer. Area effect spell with chance of stun and lets you attack from farther away than a normal range attack with the extra distance of the spell's effect.

[Aoslare]

You know... I kinda like this idea.  It's not like it would really be overpowered for Guardians to be able to use either type of attack.

 

On 4/19/2024 at 5:14 AM, Elerai said:

Anyways, its not about difficulty. I want diversity in build paths. Max BM + SC + INT, with 5 MM and 4 BLM is really the only option Agents get. They can't focus on creations, aside from maybe a Gazer or two; Daze + ST damage isn't great on them as BM is very AOE + DOT focused, and they definitely don't want anything to do with Melee/Missile. Sure, Dominating stuff all around is a cool playstyle, but I wouldn't call it hard or diverse.

 

Hell, I'd even want some diversity in shaping. With how accuracy works, not focusing a single shaping tree is suboptimal. If creation accuracy was adjusted a bit to not be as dependant on shaping levels, multi-shaping can again be a legit option. Admittedly, in G5 shaping skills were a bit weak since creation level bonus from skills were massively outclassed by base creation levels, but maybe we can get a better compromise?

 

Love all of this.

 

There is one thing, one very stupid thing, which makes Agents and Guardians likely better than Sorceresses and Shock Troopers in G5: in G5 and only G5, the 3 original classes have invisible armor and resistance bonuses that are pretty huge, ranging from 30% to 60% for damage types, and at 70% for mental.

[Displayed Name]

No investment in melee =/= Never melee
Powerful thorns are rare =/= Not enough for the fights that actually need them
Giving leap to PC is potentially sequence breaking.
Weapon Shaping is more than self-buffs. It has 2 potent DoT sources.

Essence Lash is the only reliable source of shock. Acid Shower is the only PC ability that can apply Acid in AoE.

DoT is % of max hp, taking account of damage type resistances and boss damage resistances but not skill damage scaling.

Putting more than minimum points in BM not necessarily pay with high level elites and bosses.

The assumption of Agent only having one build in Infestation is just an assumption.

She is numerically superior to other classes, matching and often overtaking them in their supposedly strong suite.

Yes, Agent can support a team as well as Shaper. She has 2 points in all magical skill but the same as others in Fire Shaping.

Yes, leveling Shaping skills is costly. But it isn't forbidden. It is possible to have end game viable shaping skills and much better spell scaling than Shaper as Agent.

EM does not matter with the abundance of canisters and Shaper has a 1-point advantage only anyway.

No point wailing on poor Guardian.

 

Remakes have a very different paradigm than OGs.

Melee stat sticks have requirement.　Weapon shaping and AoE batons exist.

Leveling differences between Strong/Normal/Weak skills is just 1 point for each gradient rather than 2 points between Normal and Weak as in OGs.

Accuracy scales with level only, making Mental Magic by design necessarily very limited in power.

EM and Intellect splits. No differences in Essence scaling between classes but still exists for HP, very favorably for non-Weak combat classes.

Worse action economy for PC except that pair of gloves.

These are all changes that make the gap between supposedly superior and inferior classes back in OG way less clean cut in remakes.

Take the Agent/Infiltrator and the Sorceress for example.

In G5, they had the same Essence scaling but 1 point Intellect differences, cementing the later as the one on top in most cases, with most combat skills being irrelevant and durability advantage of the former being insignificant, not taking account of that resistance bug.

In the remakes, they would have the same Intellect and EM. Sorceress would have the same physical and combat skills and HP scaling like the Shaper.

Assuming an Agent and a Sorceress with the same investment in Fire Shaping and magic skills,

the Sorceress will come out ahead in points equal to the rank of investment in FS.

She also has the advantage of getting Healing Craft cheaper and starts with 1 in it.

But Agent will have easier access to melee stat sticks and Weapon Shaping. 

With high level HC spells potentially substituted by spores, there are arguments for both sides.

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, Displayed Name said:

EM does not matter with the abundance of canisters

What is EM? 

 

 

[Displayed Name]

Essence Mastery.

[Genernumlover]

7 hours ago, Displayed Name said:

She is numerically superior to other classes, matching and often overtaking them in their supposedly strong suite.

 

If that is true you should email Spiderweb Software directly. That's a major game balance issue you've uncovered. Overpowering one class to be able to match either of the others in their specializations while still having her own specialization means that the Agent is currently overpowered. It sounds like Vogel overcompensated for the earlier difficulty playing Agents. He should either nerf the Agent or increase the stats of the other classes so that they are more equal. I'm in favor of buffing the other classes. Agents should be powerful, but that doesn't mean the other classes should be weaker by comparison.

 

[Aoslare]

Hold those horses.  That's not really true.  There are some ways in which the Agent is numerically superior, and other ways in which she is not; but there are some frankly silly comparisons being made here.

 

8 hours ago, Displayed Name said:

Yes, leveling Shaping skills is costly. But it isn't forbidden. It is possible to have end game viable shaping skills and much better spell scaling than Shaper as Agent.

 

Shaping skills are the main thing a creation-centric build wants to pump.  An Agent who goes seriously for a shaping build will spend more extra points in shaping skills than they save in spells.  But even in the text above, look at the false equivalency: "viable shaping skills" versus "much better spell scaling."  This is pretty silly, considering that extra levels on creations have a more than linear impact on their effectiveness, whereas support spells have zero meaningful scaling to begin with.  Yes, you could scale damage spells more effectively, but if you're fielding an entire team of creations, any extra points going towards your personal DPS are going to be a weaker contribution than boosting creation DPS.

 

If you want to run a creation-centric team, Shapers are the best class.  Full stop.  You could do it with an Agent and it wouldn't be crazy, but the Agent won't be better.

 

Also, the game has been out over a month, and it had many months of beta testing.  It's been analyzed upwards and downwards.  Everything isn't perfectly balanced, of course not.  But one forum post is not a reason to jump to extreme conclusions like this.

[Genernumlover]

Except that viable is the standard that most players use for investing in Shaping skills and creations. I'm not going to put a bunch of points in Stalkthorn, but focus on a Rotghroth instead. That's why the creation analysis thread you wrote is so important to players. It helps us measure the viability of Shaping skills and creation choices.

 

The main issue is the question raised by the thread: can an Agent match or nearly match the other classes in their specializations while still being the best in her own at the same time? For a hypothetical example, if she is functioning like she has one strong and two medium skillsets due to current gameplay, even if the character screen says one skillset is supposed to be weak, that'd mean the Agent is too strong and needs some adjustment.

 

Beta testing doesn't catch everything. I also said "If that is true." That's why I said Vogel should be alerted to the issue, so that he can look into it and determine it based on his viewpoint as someone who tinkers directly with the game. I'm not suggesting drastically altering the game right here and now with no examination. What I am suggesting is alerting someone who can look into the game's inner workings and tell us if there is a balance issue that has been overlooked.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:17 PM by Genernumlover

[Randomizer]

Jeff designed this version of the game to make you use creations! He emphasized that during beta testing and wanted the game tested on all difficulties using creations. He repeated tweaked the creations and items to make them better for creations. This is the only class that is over powered because and army of creations can do more than a solo character.

 

Although in the Overrun mod, you can see that it's possible to make some creations even better that failed in the Shaper analysis. Just remember that Jeff will use that against us in the GF3 remake.

 

Now it is possible to play the game even on torment difficulty as a solo Agent or Guardian and do almost every fight even in the expert area, Gazak-Uss. You may have to do the game in a different order and some fights will be harder. Fighting the Drakon Master on torment difficulty takes about 14 rounds with creations. Fighting him as a solo guardian took about 45 rounds and using several canisters to get greater damage per round.

 

Trying to balance the game so everything is equal is almost impossible. A min/max character will always do better that other characters. So it's hard to balance out everything.

[Aoslare]

Is viable not the standard most players use for investing in magic, in the same way as for shaping?  I don't understand what's supposed to make that different.

 

But if you evaluate the game balance based on a standard of "pass/fail" for X, but "full letter grades" for Y?  Of course that's going to favor the class that is better with Y.  That's not a game balance issue with the game, that's an experimental design issue with your evaluation procedure.

 

This magic vs shaping balance has existed for 3 years, btw -- it was identical in Mutagen.

[Jawaj]

If anything magic is more of a pass/fail binary than creations, because buffs don't give you that much extra beyond the minimum spell level (I am not sure about debuffs).

[Genernumlover]

48 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Trying to balance the game so everything is equal is almost impossible. A min/max character will always do better that other characters. So it's hard to balance out everything.

 

This isn't about reaching a perfect balance. For me, this is about each class being powerful in their own right and distinctive. One class being able to use the abilities of the other classes nearly as well, or as well, as they can and having its own unique gameplay is not fun.

[Aoslare]

But that's just not a thing.  Maybe you want the classes to be more distinct than they are -- which is understandable.  I wouldn't mind that either.  But that's not what Geneforge was ever about.  Avadon is the only Spiderweb series that's ever embraced having different abilities for different characters.  Exile/Avernum and Nethergate didn't even have classes at all, and they are still great games.

 

It might be helpful to think of shaper/guardian/agent less as "classes" and more as "perks" or "paths" or "emphases."  And they do function for those.

 

1 hour ago, Jawaj said:

If anything magic is more of a pass/fail binary than creations, because buffs don't give you that much extra beyond the minimum spell level (I am not sure about debuffs).

 

Debuffs are the same.  Both buffs and debuffs only give you duration increases for added skill.  Those are percentile increases, so they aren't typically that huge.

 

[Displayed Name]

Here is an example array that should favor Shaper in theory but not.

My apologies for not clarifying enough. It might be exaggeration, but the point stands.

Admittedly the difference would not be critical in the context of the game.

Beta testing would not bother with such miniscule differences. Plus Agent with full team and 15+ Fire Shaping is counter intuitive.

By much better spell scaling, I meant for Spellcraft and Essence Shield. They are diluted by items and buffs. Advantage is an advantage though.

By "end game viable shaping skill", I mean high teens. More than 15 ranks. This plus stat levels are enough for the accuracy threshold and then some.

It is more economical to stat leveling tier 3 creations than more shaping skills around this point. So Shaper's not that ahead unless going for 18+.

I know it is very counter intuitive and shocking. It was to me too.

But it is just basic arithmetic. Shaper starts with low stats. Agent starts with high ones.

Shaper will come out ahead with Battle and Magic Shaping. 1 point advantage seals the deal. 

For Fire however, Agent can easily come out ahead in Spellcraft and access to melee stat sticks/Weapon Shaping by sacrificing Mass Restore.
 

 

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Displayed Name

[Aoslare]

A pretty image which needs to be debunked.  The only way you got this was by requiring a Spellcraft of 8, which isn't a threshold for anything and is not a sensible investment if you're focused on the creations.  There are also multiple sources of Spellcraft from quests (Sharon), charms (+3!), and equipment (gloves of spell mastery, obvious pick).  You've also left the Agent with zero points in Healing Craft, which is a pretty massive omission if you're trying to support creations.  You didn't just sacrifice Mass Restore, you even sacrificed Group Heal.  How the heck is that worth a point or two of Spellcraft?

 

You've also left Leadership at 5 for some reason, which is an odd choice.  6 would be the typical endgame level (giving you 10 with both Leadership items), or maybe 4 if you're sacrificing the Leadership 10 goodies.  5 doesn't make much sense.

 

EDIT: Also, why the heck does the Shaper have a point in Melee Weapons?  What requires melee skill of 2 (there's a canister) that a Shaper really cares about to the tune of 4 skill points?

 

In other words: this is very clearly not a natural or strategic setup, it's one you've manufactured to try and support this position.

 

7 hours ago, Displayed Name said:

It is more economical to stat leveling tier 3 creations than more shaping skills around this point.

This is true, BUT (1) that only covers ~2 levels, since you run out of favorable creation stat augments quickly, and (2) that would require pumping Essence Mastery a lot more than you have.  (And that does still cost the Agent more -- 1 extra skill point per 2 points in Essence Mastery, due to starting 1 lower, even after you've trained the Agent once to make up for it.)

[Displayed Name]

I accounted for all the charms and canisters for this exercise.

Yes, it is not a natural setup.

Yes, it is manufactured.

But not to prove my point.

It is a setup to refute my point.

It is purposefully and strategically made to meet minimal requirement of full MM and BM access with items and canisters.

General skills are lower than what players usually have for more points. They are equal on both sides, so it doesn't matter.

An unspoiled Shaper player can easily invest more in magic skills and lose to Agent even harder.

The Shaper shown has 54 points invested in magic and 112 points invested in FS.

The Agent has 25 points invested in magic and 144 invested in FS.

Does that count for "An Agent who goes seriously for a shaping build"? How about "focused on the creations"?

If your metric is 20 FS, then case closed. I said 18+ would be more favorable to Shaper before.

The only way for PC to meaningfully scale past critical threshold is more action, hence the SC lvs.

I know about the bonus. I already said they are diluted. But the gloves stack with its hardcoded nature and more actions is more actions.

Group Heal is just 2 points of HC, which are free. Regen and Heal are just too inconsequential in a hard fight. So, it is either 2 or 5.

Spectral Cleaver, the low hanging fruit of stat sticks. +2 MM and 20% Essence Shield scaling. A sweet enough deal for 4 points.

There are 5 points of free EM, remember? It doesn't require that much for Drayks. 28 EP per lv for a team of 7. 6 EM for 5 lvs with spare.

Drayks with 5 lvs and key investments ala your guide is 46 per piece, totaling 322 for 7. 13 EM is 354. It is enough to buff up pre-fight.

Taking favorable creation stat augments is not the point. Getting levels for cheaper skill points are.

Shaper is just 1 rank ahead in EM. No need to complicate it. In practice, it is at most an 8-points advantage. 6 points in this case.

I could pick a more favorable array for Shaper, but he is only ever ahead in FS, EM and HC.

He will only ever be better with more ranks in these skills. Any other options would just make Agent ahead.

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Displayed Name

[Aoslare]

I think we agree on most points, but I emphatically disagree on a lot of details, and those are driving the evaluation of "advantage" on one side of the other.

 

6 minutes ago, Displayed Name said:

General skills are lower than what players usually have for more points. They are equal on both sides, so it doesn't matter.

It does matter, because if there were more or fewer leftover points, those would not be used equally efficiently by both classes, since they would not be going into skills that cost the same for each class.

 

7 minutes ago, Displayed Name said:

Group Heal is just 2 points of HC, which are free. Regen and Heal are just too inconsequential in a hard fight. So, it is either 2 or 5.

Yes, and Mass Restore is not an inconsequential ability if you're running a full team of creations.  And if you go for 5, things tilt heavily away from the Agent.

 

8 minutes ago, Displayed Name said:

The only way for PC to meaningfully scale past critical threshold is more action, hence the SC lvs.

For the PC's personal damage, yes.  The PC's personal damage is not the best use of skill points in a creation-team build.  Increasing the PC's average actions per turn by roughly +0.02 (after math with haste, gloves, other sources) is not better than working towards an extra level on all creations, with all the things that come with that.

 

8 minutes ago, Displayed Name said:

There are 5 points of free EM, remember? It doesn't require that much for Drayks. 28 EP per lv for a team of 7. 6 EM for 5 lvs with spare.

This is true, but those points are almost all endgame points.  This might be optimal for level 23 with all quests completed, but for the first 75% of the game when your level is lower and you haven't gotten to any of those quests, some extra points in EM are a good deal.  It's a trade-off, but so is everything.