GF2-I: Tuldaric - Spoilers

[alhoon]

I would like to start a discussion about Tuldaric. This discussion has spoilers. 

 

Tuldaric was one of the Shapers that were convinced in Sucia to help the Serviles. Being a genius and using the "little scrolls" he managed to find a not-safe way for Serviles to actually be able to cast magic, one of the most important developments in the history of the Rebellion. I believe the Servile Rebel characters from GF4 and GF5 have undergone Tuldaric's ritual, not the cultist-path. 

 

As time progressed, Tuldaric started dipping into the cannisters a bit too hard. And the result was more or less what one could expect: He became increasingly detached (like you do at 10+ canisters, way ahead of the 5+ canister thing), powermad and increasingly reckless. I believe seeing Tuldaric's degeneration / evolution is the reason the Awakened put a stop on the use of Canisters, as they said "eh... no. Better safe than sorry" breaking away from the Takers and Barzhites that are "better powerful than sane". 

However, even as detached as he has become, lost in the cannister madness he still supports the Serviles. If you talk to him, he will admit he rarely thinks about politics anymore in his pursuit of power but he says that Elijah convinced him - and apparently he remains convinced because he does help the Awakened directly. He is still stopping his mad research and self-empowerment to help Serviles. 

Thus, it was apparent to me, even from O-GF2: Tuldaric slowly turned from Awakened to moderate-Taker. Even some of his dialogue as he goes around is "we will die" and "we need to fight". Which could be surmised as the "Take our Free" suicidal stance of the Takers that so moves me. Fight to the bitter end even at the cost of you life, because that's how much freedom is worth. Live free, die free. 
Tuldaric Exactly the kind I wanted from the Awakened. He knows the Shapers are coming, he is jacking up his power and is willing to fight. He has sacrificed his sanity in the process. I don't blame the Awakened for not following suit. Or Carnelian that prefers to be a meh Shaper than go mad. But I also don't blame the Awakened that are willing to dip into the canisters although not go as crazy as Tuldaric/The Takers. 

 

I was fine with Tuldaric being practically a Taker thinking that he is an Awakened. I was more than fine. That's the leader I wanted for the Awakened: a very powerful genius (even if reckless) that still wants Serviles to be free and expects the battle, not naive, passive Pinner. 

 

And then:

 

In my previous Geneforge 2 run, I have not played that area (or if I did, I forgot). 

O_O 

What?!?!? Tuldaric, no!  
A lifecrafter using Rogues as target practice?! That's... Barzhite talk! Not even the majority of Shapers would say something like that! They purge rogues, they don't keep them for target practice. Some butthole Shapers keep it in the back of their mind which is one of the many reasons why I hated that guardian outside Rahul's fort in GF3. 

A few takers I could see being so reckless in their pursuit of results / farming of power. 
I can also see the pragmatism of killing the rogues for components (I do that too ) . Not the monstrous thing the Shapers do that Shape Ghalks to pluck out their eyes, but since the creation has to be put down, at least keep it away from people till it is also beneficial to grab a few scales. 

 

I really hope that servile guard is misrepresenting the situation. That the "keep them as target practice" means something more akin to "let's test our new destructive techniques on some enemies we have in a controlled environment, rather than do what the Shapers do by making creations fight to the death in the Foundry (GF5) or the Barzhites in that arena" than "let's play by killing things! " or "Let's not put down this dangerous rogue; lock it there and then let Jimmy and Bob kill it, they need the practice."   

Now, I know what you think: "Dude, don't you go out of your way to kill things to get XP?" ehh... yes, but I don't herd them in places so that I can kill them at my leisure or if they are too low level for me, to let my apprentices kill them for the XP. 

 

Edited April 12 by alhoon

[oceanes]

I was always intrigued by the thought that we never really see what kind of a person Tuldaric was before the canisters. It would be interesting to know what his conversation with Ellhrah was like. Also, I've noticed that a few characters seem to handle extensive canister use better than others, Trajikov and Tuldaric being examples. Even Phariton isn't wrathful like most, although he doesn't hesitate to kill you if he decides to. My personal head-canon is that the Shaping process doesn't create sociopathy or megalomania as such, but rather removes the sense of caution and fear of consequences that come from a lifetime of being fragile enough to be hurt. Shapers tend to become megalomaniacal because of the Shaper worldview when raised to that state, or in the case of Drayks and Drakons, their own inherent pride and greed. It's clear that the Shapers inculcate immense mental discipline and mental focus as a prerequisite to learning Shaping, which probably includes control of emotions. This starting point might explain why so many altered Shapers seem to be concerned with their research to the exclusion of all else. It's just the natural Shaper cultural trait taken to its end. Heck, even the in-game dinnerware description mentions most Shapers not caring about things like cuisine.

[Mechalibur]

I don't think the idea is that Tuldaric is acting more like a Taker than an Awakened. It's that his self-shaping and canister usage have stripped away his principles and his relationships. He only maintains his allegiance with the Awakened because he believes it will give him enemies to test his new power and experiments on, and so that he can have allies that will supply him with materials and test subjects. He clearly did care about their cause at some point, but that doesn't even seem to register to him any more.

 

It's a bit of a shame he isn't mentioned in any of the endings. His research is a huge plot point in the overall narrative, with his research being vital for the plans of the Takers, Barzites, and Awakened. I'm curious what he gets up to in a post-Awakened victory.

[ultra112]

Tbh, as much I believe that Tuldaric could have been a wonderful person pre-canister use, but seeing what he is now, I fear it's only a matter of time when he decided to turn against the awakened, I mean by the time we meet he was already doing insane stuff like summoning an infernal, which the game made it clear why it was a bad idea, not to mention his ever shifting temperament as well. Unless he decided to go through Litalia's sober routine that is. 

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, ultra112 said:

 I mean by the time we meet he was already doing insane stuff like summoning an infernal, 

 

That is what the infernal implies. It is never stated by a trustworthy source. The Infernal has assumed the form of a different Shaper, not that of Tuldaric. And Tuldaric didn't shy from admitting he keeps the infernal trapped and he is well aware and uncaring that you may kill him for it. He even says "I think you shouldn't kill me". Thus, we have no actual proof that Tuldaric brought the Infernal, just that he is keeping the Infernal trapped. We have some indicators that Tuldaric did not summon the Infernal, as the Infernal has the shape of a different Shaper. 
We also don't know what Tuldaric does or plans to do with the Infernal. Yes, it is unwise to keep the Infernal there. But what is Tuldaric to do? It is next to impossible to kill that thing! He has 800 hp and 85-90% resistance to everything, at level 18. It needs an army to take it down. 
Also the "I will return to my dimension once I make sure Tuldaric is dead, trust me bro. I want nothing to do with your kind. Totally. " that the infernal tells you is in no way convincing. I have not killed Tuldaric to know what happens with the infernal but I have absolutely no reason to trust a single thing the Infernal says while I do have some reason to believe Tuldaric has some good reason for keeping it trapped. 

 

  

5 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

 He only maintains his allegiance with the Awakened because he believes it will give him enemies to test his new power and experiments on, and so that he can have allies that will supply him with materials and test subjects. He clearly did care about their cause at some point, but that doesn't even seem to register to him any more.

 

That is not true; he could go to the Barzites and they will welcome him. He could go to the Takers and they would accept him. Both have more to offer him. Furthermore, the only times Tuldaric stops his research and quest for power is ... to help serviles remove the Shaper limitations to their spellcasting potential. He clearly does not think like the old Tuldaric, but he still cares for the Awakened enough to go out of his way to help them. And as for the test subjects, the Takers would be much more willing to do that than the Awakened.  
While Tuldaric states clearly and sincerely he hasn't thought about the politics for a long time, he never says he believes they are fools nor he questions their decision to not use self-shaping (after they saw what it did to him and Barzhal) like the Takers do. He still supports the Awakened and their cause even if he goes through the motions. 

It is undeniable that he has lost his mind and his motives have completely shifted, but he still helps the Serviles. 

 

 

  

6 hours ago, oceanes said:

 It's clear that the Shapers inculcate immense mental discipline and mental focus as a prerequisite to learning Shaping, which probably includes control of emotions. 

 

Or so they want to believe. They say that a lot but "ability to quickly absorb information" and "some resistance to mental effects" (that focus you talk about) does not actually translate to immense mental discipline and control of emotions despite what the Shapers think. 
It is quite clear through the series that Shapers are as flawed as other human beings despite them thinking differently. There are quick-to-anger Shapers, there are many mad Shapers (not rebels, actual Shapers that are mad), there are reckless Shapers, there are naive Shapers etc. The game world is littered with the failings of Shapers and there is such a demand for people to deal with those failings that the Guardians, an entire sect of Shapers, still has purpose! 
The Shapers are quite aware that they fail more often than they succeed and thus the first thing they build before they start doing anything is heavy doors to lock "the anything" in. 

 

"My personal head-canon is that the Shaping process doesn't create sociopathy or megalomania as such, but rather removes the sense of caution and fear of consequences that come from a lifetime of being fragile enough to be hurt. Shapers tend to become megalomaniacal because of the Shaper worldview when raised to that state, or in the case of Drayks and Drakons, their own inherent pride and greed. " 

 

For some Shapers, the lucky ones, yes. But unless they changed what happens in the Barzhite side, this is the Geneforge game where we find out that cannisters cause different kind of madness to different people and how the Barzhites deal with that. 

Is that mad Barzhite that talks about shadows speaking to her around in this game? She was my favorite Barzhite. 

 

Edited April 13 by alhoon

[oceanes]

I was more implying emotional suppression rather than healthy control, like the negative reading of Star Wars Jedi. Such a practice, while potentially useful and occasionally necessary, would go a long way to explaining how Shaper culture got to this state we see it in, and why it lasted as long as it did without a rebellion of the same scale as the ones we see in-game.

 

As regards the hallucinating Barzite, I'm doing a Barzite run right now, and it's implied that canisters can end up spoiled or defective in such a way as to cause that effect. There's one you can use in the sublevel of Rising that does this, and it has its own ending slide. I'm not sure if the hallucinations are actually such though, or if possibly Barzahl accidentally stumbled onto an augment giving us something like World of Darkness's "See the Unseen". I haven't used it to see the slide though yet. 

[alhoon]

So far I haven't used a canister (and I plan to, but I haven't foudn the ones I want yet) but I plan to go to 7-8 canisters. Enough to get the first message that you are getting detached and the people seem more distant memory but not full cannister junky and get the message that you think of people and their lives as the background. 

Also, unless they changed the messages, at least in the previous GF, your character wondered if that power to create life is the reason the Shapers are so distant and detached. 

[Mechalibur]

8 hours ago, alhoon said:

That is not true; he could go to the Barzites and they will welcome him. He could go to the Takers and they would accept him.

 

 

I highly doubt that. He already picked his side and presumably has bad history with the other factions. The Takers especially would probably try and eat him just for showing his face in Zhass-Uss.

 

9 hours ago, alhoon said:

Furthermore, the only times Tuldaric stops his research and quest for power is ... to help serviles remove the Shaper limitations to their spellcasting potential. He clearly does not think like the old Tuldaric, but he still cares for the Awakened enough to go out of his way to help them.

 

Considering the number of magic-wielding serviles at the start of the game, it's quite possible he did this before the canister madness madness started, back when he was still idealistic about the Awakened and very invested in their cause. Even if it was after the canister madness, there's a good chance he did it just to prove it could be done. The Awakened gave him a difficult challenge and completing it was a test of his skill and mastery that no other shaper was capable of until this point. I can definitely see a mad scientist type doing that outside of moral convictions.

[mikeprichard]

Agree with Mech's overall take here - Jeff's central theme is the potential for power to corrupt even the best intentions. Even Stanis (see his final dialogue when you best him in the duel) and Zakary (recognizing it's not a canister issue in his case - see his new Emily-related dialogue, Nora's vague mention of her reasons for loyalty to him, etc.) show human/sympathetic dimensions; not that anyone here is claiming this, but they aren't black-and-white evil, full stop. Now that the Taker/Barzite (and even Awakened - see Barrier of the Wind, which incidentally Tuldaric has apparently lost all interest in despite its planned importance to the survival of the Awakened) Shaping/canister doom loops have begun, the player's navigation of the factions (or not) and charting a final path essentially represent a range of bad-to-worse options IMO.

Edited April 13 by mikeprichard

[Hyperion703]

13 hours ago, alhoon said:

I have not killed Tuldaric to know what happens with the infernal but I have absolutely no reason to trust a single thing the Infernal says while I do have some reason to believe Tuldaric has some good reason for keeping it trapped. 

As an aside, I have to wonder if infernals are any worse than shapers. As far as we know none of them walked many dozens of mi/km just to barge into every structure they encountered to murder and steal for personal gain and pleasure. I mean, I'm nearing end game and I can say beyond certainty that my body count in the Drypeaks alone likely dwarfs all five of theirs combined, including dozens of otherwise "innocents." Hell, I've cleared out a half dozen whole towns worth of civilian townsfolk just because they understandably got upset that I've murdered an upstanding civic leader. What do they get for their troubles? Effectively an unapologetic attempt at genocide and their most valued possessions going into a "junk bag" to be pawned for a fraction of their worth. Not to mention, infernals keep their ends of bargains (unlike me, a conniving backstabber who cannot be trusted... some of you know what I mean...).

 

I know this is slightly off topic, but who are the real devils here? Not the infernals.

[alhoon]

4 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

 

I highly doubt that. He already picked his side and presumably has bad history with the other factions. The Takers especially would probably try and eat him just for showing his face in Zhass-Uss.

 

 

Considering the number of magic-wielding serviles at the start of the game, it's quite possible he did this before the canister madness madness started, back when he was still idealistic about the Awakened and very invested in their cause. Even if it was after the canister madness, there's a good chance he did it just to prove it could be done. The Awakened gave him a difficult challenge and completing it was a test of his skill and mastery that no other shaper was capable of until this point. I can definitely see a mad scientist type doing that outside of moral convictions.

 

 

He is so valued by the other factions that his history with them would be forgiven. The Takers would probably try to eat him on his way - like they try to eat the Player Character - but they would accept him. He may have just not considered it, but I am sure he would be welcomed into the Barzhites and reluctantly accepted by the Takers. They would need Tuldaric to finish their work, both of them, in my opinion. The first thing they ask is for his knowledge so they can continue. 

 

I agree that Tuldaric made his machine before the start of the cannister madness. What I was talking about it is that Tuldaric still does it. He is the only one that can use that machine. Every so often he stops his research to go modify a Servile or even human (or, well, Thahd 😉I didn't say he's not crazy). 

3 hours ago, mikeprichard said:

see Barrier of the Wind, which incidentally Tuldaric has apparently lost all interest in despite its planned importance to the survival of the Awakened)

 

 

O_O 
What? Are you sure? I kinda remember from the Originals that Tuldaric was not too much involved in the later stages, but from what I recall, the Barrier of the Wind is something Tuldaric started and mapped out the entire process. I.e. as a researcher, he has done his part and it is now about finding the missing parts and the mechanics to apply his work and turn it to machines. 

Does Tuldarik or Pinner or the researches state that Tuldaric has lost his interest? Or you assume that because he doesn't get involved?

 

 

3 hours ago, mikeprichard said:

Agree with Mech's overall take here - Jeff's central theme is the potential for power to corrupt even the best intentions.

On that we agree, and poor Tuldaric has lost his mind and has become a powermad Taker. He is certainly corrupt and has lost his way. He still have allegiance to the Awakened, he still believes all Creations and people are equals but now it is the power-mad take. Tuldaric still teaches his apprentices, he just doesn't modify them. He creates powerful magic and passes it down to Serviles. 

But he has gone gaga. I don't think he would ever betray the Awakened. But he paradoxically doesn't seem to value life much any more, even his own from the way he reacted when I told him about the Infernal. I agree that at some point, the Awakened would have to take down Tuldaric. But that time is not yet and it will not be for some time. Pinner is a greater problem for the Awakened than Tuldaric, IMO.  

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

As an aside, I have to wonder if infernals are any worse than shapers. [..] my body count in the Drypeaks alone likely dwarfs all five of theirs combined,

Five? Five Infernals?! 

You need probably 4 18 level creations to take down one with that resistance. 

 

 

 

[mikeprichard]

Re: Tuldaric losing interest in the barrier, that's from Learned Varkan's dialogue. He was the initial driving force behind it, but we see he's now following his own path (as discussed above). I find it difficult to see Pinner as a bigger problem for the long-term goals of the Awakened, though, regardless of how (apparently) naive she may appear.

[oceanes]

42 minutes ago, alhoon said:

O_O 
What? Are you sure? I kinda remember from the Originals that Tuldaric was not too much involved in the later stages, but from what I recall, the Barrier of the Wind is something Tuldaric started and mapped out the entire process. I.e. as a researcher, he has done his part and it is now about finding the missing parts and the mechanics to apply his work and turn it to machines. 

Does Tuldarik or Pinner or the researches state that Tuldaric has lost his interest? Or you assume that because he doesn't get involved?

 

Yes, the researchers at the Barrier bemoan their lot to the PC, that the reason they haven't been able to get the job done is that Tuldaric basically abandoned them there in favor of the Magus Complex once everything was restored and mostly designed but not actually finished; that's why they're so happy to see you; finally, A Shaper to help!

 

9 minutes ago, mikeprichard said:

I find it difficult to see Pinner as a bigger problem for the long-term goals of the Awakened, though, regardless of how (apparently) naive she may appear.

I see Pinner as being not naive really, but just so committed to her principles, or even to Ellhrah's memory, that she feels she has to try, even if deep down, she knows it's doomed. Also, she could just be too tired physically and mentally to bring herself to try to tackle the problem of Creation liberation generally, thinking that the best she can do is ensure the safety of her own people, of Medab and the mountains. She might even be right.

Edited April 13 by oceanes

[alhoon]

21 minutes ago, oceanes said:

thinking that the best she can do is ensure the safety of her own people, of Medab and the mountains. She might even be right.

 

You are right there... we don't know if Pinner is actually right. 

The Takers did it. Or well, have a very good chance to, in GF5. But they are much more energized and radical. And they have broken far to many eggs to make that omelette. 

 

But then, it comes down to this, in my opinion: the Awakened should have tried. There are millions of suffering serviles. The Awakened should be trying to liberate them all. Pinner's plan will have the Awakened in defense. And creative as the Serviles are and Slow to change as the Shapers are, eventually, at 40 years, or 70 years or 100 years, the Shapers will make something that can beat the flying Drakons. 

ESPECIALLY if we consider that Tuldaric is losing his interest in the survival of the Awakened. Or that he lost his mind and at some point in those years, they Awakened will have to fight a difficult civil war to take him down when he moves from dangerously mad to actively dangerous. Tuldaric may well throw the Awakened version of the Unbound out, thinking he can control them and without regard of what happens if he is wrong. His "I will try it because I want to. Oh, and if I fail we all die. Happens." mentality. 

 

Edited April 13 by alhoon

[oceanes]

I agree with you about the Awakened being obligated to try. Pinner's attitude definitely has "peace in our time" vibes, given what we see in the ending. Speaking of that, Astoria always struck me the same way. There's just something I don't quite trust about her, and I've always tended to side with Ghaldring as a result, when not going for a specific ending. That said, the Rebel progression has always had distinct Reign of Terror into Napoleon vibes that dismayed me. It's entirely possible that the rebellion as presented in the original games may have broken more than it built, physically, societally, and in terms of life lost. I admit to having some sympathy for Alwan's position in GF5; even as tyrannical and ethically compromised as the Shapers are, he's holding to arguably constructive values as he knows them, and to be honest neither side has any reason to expect a balanced peace to last, except perhaps out of sheer horror, and that response will only last as long as the memory does. I'm really looking forward to seeing how all this is framed in future remakes, as I'm sure you can tell, What do you think?

Edited April 13 by oceanes

[alhoon]

I think that, honestly, "Reign of Terror into Napoleon" is a kind way to describe the Rebellion. 😁

The 30 years war, mostly based on ideology/religion, that led to 70% depopulation in some areas of Germany is closer to what it happened. Even closer, IMO, is the Chinese civil war that saw the Imperial China overturned and then the Communists with the Nationalists were fighting each other over the seer wreckage and tens of millions of lives lost. 

 

Ghaldring is too radical and more importantly, he is not far from the Shapers himself. His faction is willing to let creations live and not bar them. But they have moved from Takers to something else. They are less tyrannical than the Shapers but they are tyrannical. They are not too harsh on creations but they want the Serviles as 2nd class citizens and the drayks as slightly-less that Drakons. It is all about power. And while that starts as meritocratic, since you have geneforge - way and cannister - way to power, very soon it will be "who the ones in power like? That one gets cannisters and power". 

Greta was right to overthrow Ghaldring. And I say that as a 100% pro Rebel. A lot of Lifecrafters (Drakons or that cannister junky human from GF4) were starting to behave like Shapers. There were Drakons that were openly saying the quiet part out loud: that not all creations will be equal once the dust settles. 

How long before we hear "This is against Drakon Law!" and "Common / Drakons" ? 30 years? 50? Not even a century. 

 

I would be very glad if the Rebellion was as destructive as the French Revolution  and had a similar end, cause after Napoleon and the corrupt directorate, things improved. 

 

Two nations facing each other over the sheer horror has worked in the past. The Cold War didn't end in bombings. There would be border wars and shadow wars and all, but through this, there would be ideological evolution. There will be those that will be more moderate without being assassinated or executed. 

Edited April 13 by alhoon

[oceanes]

 

Agree with you completely concerning Ghaldring and his overthrow. Shades of Animal Farm's pigs there. My comment was more focused on the idea that the territorial and resource gains of Ghaldring's victory versus Astoria's path would be more likely to lead to a lasting peace, while still preserving the Rebellion's goals, because the balance of power would shift in favor of Sucia. My fear is that Astoria's peace would lead into a Great War aftermath-style interwar period, followed by another worse war, particularly if the Trakovites still exist.

Edited April 13 by oceanes

[mikeprichard]

Takers (especially the drayk/drakon "leadership") were already behaving like Shapers in G2, let alone G4/G5... too many examples to list.

[alhoon]

3 hours ago, mikeprichard said:

Takers (especially the drayk/drakon "leadership") were already behaving like Shapers in G2, let alone G4/G5... too many examples to list.

😑

We Takers Taker-sympathizing Awakened / Rebels disagree with you. 

It is clear your ideological impurity is a threat to the Rebellion and you must be eaten. It is Drakon Law the right thing to do. You should not question the Wisdom of the Lifecrafters. The Drakon Lifecrafters that is. You are free to question the wisdom of the Common human lifecrafters. 

No, I don't see any similarity at all. (I am sarcastic) 

 

That said, the key difference is that the Takers do not treat the Serviles and Creations as harshly as the Shapers nor they Bar creations. They bar ideologies but that is not the same. The Takers are willing to accept Shapers that change sides. Even the Drakon leadership. The Shapers would never accept a Drakon that changed sides. 

Edited April 14 by alhoon

[mikeprichard]

Lol! Yep, that's about right.

[oceanes]

I'm also interested in the idea that future remakes might use the idea of the Sholai continuing to stick their oar in as an excuse to include either an Awakened or possibly even Barzite third way into future plotlines, given who the Sholai were being sponsored by in G2:I, and how warm Barzahl is about them when asked.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

I'm also interested in the idea that future remakes might use the idea of the Sholai continuing to stick their oar in as an excuse to include either an Awakened or possibly even Barzite third way into future plotlines, given who the Sholai were being sponsored by in G2:I, and how warm Barzahl is about them when asked.

 

A moderate Awakened way: Shaper Astoria. 

A moderate Barzhite way: Rawal (I will not call someone that builds a Geneforge as 'Shaper', same as I don't call Litalia or the Monarch as Shapers. Tuldaric, I do consider Shaper, even if mad. But that's about the border. I am on the fence on Taygen as eradicating all Creations is also too far). 

 

And honestly, who wouldn't see Rawal aligning with the Sholai for $$$ ?

Edited April 14 by alhoon

[oceanes]

I'll admit I thought of the cold war analogy myself, with the draining of the Geneforges as an equivalent to disarmament. Astoria does seem to be Awakened on the surface, and she could be sincere. The question becomes, what does Shaper rule even look like when an alternative is allowed to continue to exist? Do they just make all their new serviles even dumber to prevent them from wanting to jump the border? Would the Sucians even stand for that? The destruction of the war implies that there probably aren't enough commons to replace the serviles' roles in Shaper society, provided they could be convinced to even try. Is Astoria a Gorbachev/Yeltsin? The thing about cold wars, is that it isn't really a sustainable state of affairs, especially not when the ideology that animates your society is proven to be demonstrably false, and that proof is looking at you. Is Astoria trying to sunset Shaper rule? This is the sort of thing that has young Shapers in Astoria's Terrestria 20 years down the line muttering that Taygen was right. A social order can't survive on inertia alone, see Austria-Hungary for IRL example. If it collapses, then we have Sucia having to be in the awkward position of either propping up the Shapers to avoid a failed state on their border, or integrating them, possibly as a client state, which is kind of hilarious, actually.

 

As for Rawal, I'm not sure I'd call him a Barzhite. Barzhal had ideals, of a sort. Rawal very clearly doesn't. Also, I don't think he's ever actually modified himself. That would be something his fellow Council members would notice and be on the lookout for, especially post-Monarch.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Is Astoria trying to sunset Shaper rule?

Yeap. 

While avoiding total collapse and eradication. And she is attacked for her entire life over it. 

 

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Barzhal had ideals, of a sort.

Key word: Had. Like Tuldaric, those ideals are not convictions anymore. And Barzhal himself aside, the Barzhites are self-serving, powerhungry scumbags to begin with. Even the ones not yet on the cannister gravy train. 

 

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

The question becomes, what does Shaper rule even look like when an alternative is allowed to continue to exist? Do they just make all their new serviles even dumber to prevent them from wanting to jump the border? Would the Sucians even stand for that?

 

The short answers, at least in my opinion are: 

- Shaper Rule continues as in GF4 and GF5 on the safe places. You paint the other guys as dangerous lunatics that abandoned wisdom and long held ideals. And you continue to have ornks on the pasture and serviles working the fields along with Common. 

- Yes, you make the Serviles dumber and more inherently loyal, as the Servile dude that you meet in Alwan's camp outside of Northforge in GF4. They do that since a few years before GF4, so easily 10 years before the end of the Great Rebellion. 

- The people of Sucia nation don't seem to have a problem with that, not more than usual at least. They are, after all, more about talk than walking the walk. Saying "oh, those serviles don't want to be free, so we won't liberate them" is valid. The "and they were MADE that way" is a nice excuse to NOT risk your hide on the other side. 

 

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

The destruction of the war implies that there probably aren't enough commons to replace the serviles' roles in Shaper society, provided they could be convinced to even try.

Shapers have no problem making new Serviles, they are Creations after all. Carnelian in GF2 says the Serviles make new Serviles - talking for the Awakened in that particular case. The Shaper-side would make Serviles like they do after Taygen kills everything or like the ones Barzhal spams. (those war-bred serviles in O-GF2; I haven't been in his areas in GF2-I) 

The Sucia side would also have to Shape serviles. They are not against making creations, they are against enslaving them. 

[oceanes]

Good info, you seem to have replayed the originals more recently than I have. I thought the canon was that serviles were rarely shaped directly, as they were too complicated and the essence cost too high, that's why they were made to reproduce. Related topics: It's not entirely clear what the process is for the "awakening" of servile intelligence and independence, only that it involves Shapers not being around. I tend to think that there's more going on there than oppression and a simple lack of education, but I could be wrong. Secondarily, it's never explained exactly what Shaper mental control is, only that it exists, and that basically all creations are at least potentially subject to it, even those born rogue. I'm thinking of that one drakon you duel in GF3 or 4, that you can attempt to mentally dominate mid-fight as an example. If the effect is actually magical itself, that could go some way to prevent the Shapers from falling in on themselves. I have to say, I always interpreted the non-drakon side of the rebellion to be less tolerant of dismissing still enslaved serviles the way you suggest, but it depends on how trashed they are, and how war-weary the populace is.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Good info, you seem to have replayed the originals more recently than I have. I thought the canon was that serviles were rarely shaped directly, as they were too complicated and the essence cost too high, that's why they were made to reproduce.

What you say about the Serviles being complex is correct. But the Barzhites don't care much about those things and the Shapers need a breed of loyal serviles to infiltrate the Rebellion without betraying them. So... 

 

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Secondarily, it's never explained exactly what Shaper mental control is, only that it exists, and that basically all creations are at least potentially subject to it, even those born rogue.

Lying Zackary the Deceiver explicitly told me, in this game, that this is impossible, that even taking control back of a creation that went rogue is very hard and thus, any creation that goes rogue for even a round, should be killed. 

It was less than two zones later that I took control of a creation born rogue. After someone pointed here that this happens in this game. 
I believed Zackary in that, at least. And he was lying. He was not wrong, mind you. He was lying. 

 

  

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

If the effect is actually magical itself, that could go some way to prevent the Shapers from falling in on themselves.

 

I have not yet screwed the Barzhites by messing with their very magical ways to control their creations - through suffering. But it is magical. 

On the other hand, we constantly find whips and chains that are used to beat creations to keep them in control before they go mad. 

And in Mutagen I found a Fyora that was beaten by some Serviles to stop being rogue. The text was clear the Fyora was rogue but very docile because of all the abuse. I.e. domesticated rogues are still rogues! 

Slarty I think has also pointed to the text of the Drayk: Drayks can pretend to be under control while they are rogue. Wyx explains that he ... kinda controls himself with his crystals. 

And then, we have the abandoned Thahd. A thahd that is not rogue but you "steal" from another Shaper because you have awesome leadership and it is close to breaking out of control. 

 

What I surmise from that (although we perhaps should move that to a different thread): 

1. A rogue is not under Shaper control. But it can be domesticated.

1a. I don't know what is the deal with "rogue but domesticated" Serviles! They very clearly exist, but as long as they follow the orders of Shapers, the Shapers consider them non-rogue. Also, Serviles are exceptionally easy to take control of. From all the creations you brow-beat in the games, I think Serviles are the ones you do it to, the most. Even rogue ones. However, rogue and domesticated Fyoras or Thahds or alphas are still treated as rogues. Honestly, you could say that the GF1 Obeyers are "Domesticated rogue serviles". Well... they were purged but I don't think that is always the case with serviles that follow orders, even if they are technically rogues. For example the Servile that the farmer near the marshes has you look for, the one hiding in the cave. That servile is rogue. But you could send him back. 
1b. Most of the Ornks we see are probably rogue. I bet you that. 

2. A weak rogue can also be brought back in control. The Drakon you mention was a very special case and even in that case, it had to be weakened. Unless I remember wrong. 
3.  Control is magical, it is a supernatural ability of the Shapers. And of some strange soothing pylons in GF3-5 and some horrific torture devices the Barzhites use. 

4. Control is also non-magical. Beatings, soothing commands, good food, not being near rogues also affect the control. 
5. Control is different things. Sometimes, you can kinda control a creation to die even if you cannot control it. Other times you can "confuse" a creation (I think that is what you do to that Drakon you mention). And sometimes, often, you pacify a creation. 

 

Edited April 14 by alhoon

[TriRodent]

Alhoon (on my phone and it's a pain in the butt to quote specific things...(and later I bumped something and now have an unrelated quote that I can't get rid of...fml)), yes five infernals.  The last one surprised me, but when given the option of attacking...sure, what the hell.

 

I'm playing a non-aligned, zero creation Agent on Normal at levels 15-18ish for all but the first infernal (in L Mines) and never had a problem taking down any of them (buff as much as possible before starting the discussion that leads to the fight).  At that point, airshock (L4 with the boost from the frosted jewelry) was doing 300-340ish points of damage per cast.  Wh

7 hours ago, alhoon said:

What you say about the Serviles being complex is correct. But the Barzhites don't care much about those things and the Shapers need a breed of loyal serviles to infiltrate the Rebellion without betraying them. So... 

 

Lying Zackary the Deceiver explicitly told me, in this game, that this is impossible, that even taking control back of a creation that went rogue is very hard and thus, any creation that goes rogue for even a round, should be killed. 

It was less than two zones later that I took control of a creation born rogue. After someone pointed here that this happens in this game. 
I believed Zackary in that, at least. And he was lying. He was not wrong, mind you. He was lying. 

 

  

 

I have not yet screwed the Barzhites by messing with their very magical ways to control their creations - through suffering. But it is magical. 

On the other hand, we constantly find whips and chains that are used to beat creations to keep them in control before they go mad. 

And in Mutagen I found a Fyora that was beaten by some Serviles to stop being rogue. The text was clear the Fyora was rogue but very docile because of all the abuse. I.e. domesticated rogues are still rogues! 

Slarty I think has also pointed to the text of the Drayk: Drayks can pretend to be under control while they are rogue. Wyx explains that he ... kinda controls himself with his crystals. 

And then, we have the abandoned Thahd. A thahd that is not rogue but you "steal" from another Shaper because you have awesome leadership and it is close to breaking out of control. 

 

What I surmise from that (although we perhaps should move that to a different thread): 

1. A rogue is not under Shaper control. But it can be domesticated.

1a. I don't know what is the deal with "rogue but domesticated" Serviles! They very clearly exist, but as long as they follow the orders of Shapers, the Shapers consider them non-rogue. Also, Serviles are exceptionally easy to take control of. From all the creations you brow-beat in the games, I think Serviles are the ones you do it to, the most. Even rogue ones. However, rogue and domesticated Fyoras or Thahds or alphas are still treated as rogues. Honestly, you could say that the GF1 Obeyers are "Domesticated rogue serviles". Well... they were purged but I don't think that is always the case with serviles that follow orders, even if they are technically rogues. For example the Servile that the farmer near the marshes has you look for, the one hiding in the cave. That servile is rogue. But you could send him back. 
1b. Most of the Ornks we see are probably rogue. I bet you that. 

2. A weak rogue can also be brought back in control. The Drakon you mention was a very special case and even in that case, it had to be weakened. Unless I remember wrong. 
3.  Control is magical, it is a supernatural ability of the Shapers. And of some strange soothing pylons in GF3-5 and some horrific torture devices the Barzhites use. 

4. Control is also non-magical. Beatings, soothing commands, good food, not being near rogues also affect the control. 
5. Control is different things. Sometimes, you can kinda control a creation to die even if you cannot control it. Other times you can "confuse" a creation (I think that is what you do to that Drakon you mention). And sometimes, often, you pacify a creation. 

 

en the infernals minions close in, they get taken out quickly while still hitting the infernal hard.  Make sure you have the ability to regularly attack/do something else more than once per turn. Of vital importance is keeping your essence shield in place/fairly well charged (40+ turns remaining). It's worth not attacking for a turn if it's missing.  Most of the fights didn't go past 6-10 rounds.

[alhoon]

Wait, the infernal, on top of 800 hp with 85% resistance also has minions?! 

Also, I play a Shaper. My creations do the work. I sloowly raise my blessing damage. But at level 9 that I am ... even with my Drakon, I doubt I could do much to that guy. 

[Mechalibur]

His resistance is mostly fire damage. You'd be better off having drayks/drakons use their melee attack against him.

[alhoon]

6 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

His resistance is mostly fire damage. You'd be better off having drayks/drakons use their melee attack against him.

The way I see his resistances, it is 90% armor, 86% on energy, fire, etc. and immunity to mind (or stun, not sure). 

[Hyperion703]

On 4/14/2024 at 10:34 AM, TriRodent said:

yes five infernals

Actually, I spoke too soon. There are actually six infernals total. That sixth one is certainly in good company. Got wedged in there good. No wonder the Emissary couldn't detect him.  😉

[alhoon]

Who brought half a dozen infernals here? Why? It's not like they have some big secret. We already know Shaping here. 

[Hyperion703]

1 minute ago, alhoon said:

Who brought half a dozen infernals here? Why? It's not like they have some big secret. We already know Shaping here. 

According to some dialogue texts they are attracted to the chaos of the time and place. They love chaos, and delight in spreading it. Like my ex wife.

[alhoon]

I spoke with the Emissary about Tuldaric's Infernal. I was half-right. Tuldaric did not summon the Infernal. He found it and trapped it. Why he hasn't send it back? The Emissary doesn't know. Considering that Tuldaric is weeeell gone I am not sure Tuldaric even remembers why he didn't banish the Infernal in the first place. When I talk to him about the Infernal, he says stuff like "I will soon break its will" as if it is possible to "tame" an Infernal...