Alwan Poison

[Amira The Hot Potato]

It always made me curious to know how exactly the town knows that YOU poisoned Alwan and not someone else. I thought if you run in and poison the glass and leave without being seen, you wouldn't get in trouble for it.. at least not right away

[TriRodent]

Conversely I've always found it odd, across all of Jeff's universes/playgrounds that the assorted townspeople don't know that it was you that cleaned out every single resellable item within the city limits.  After all your gang of innocent looking reprobates were the only ones inside the blacksmith's shop when he/she stepped out for a moment.  ALL the swords, spears, helmets & armor are now in your junk bag along with all the raw iron & gold bars that were off in the box in the corner.  Many of them will even buy all that stuff back from you.

 

You can get away with it as long as nobody notices you & you don't even get an evil side eye the next time you roll back into town.

[Superdeath25]

I mean, the shopkeepers buy back items they watched you steal in front of them.  Plus you can kill someone in one hit while they are isolated and the entire town knows immediately.  Logic is clearly not a thing in the Geneforge universe

[alhoon]

On 2/11/2022 at 9:30 PM, Amira The Hot Potato said:

It always made me curious to know how exactly the town knows that YOU poisoned Alwan and not someone else. I thought if you run in and poison the glass and leave without being seen, you wouldn't get in trouble for it.. at least not right away

On top of the other answers, I always wondered how Alwan, and most importantly, his soldiers, were so chill when I first walked in how fort with a couple of Drayks. Or when I was doing jobs for him with a drakon in my party. Not a word from Alwan like "Hey, do you mind NOT coming here with a drakon and a drayk dude?" 

[Aze]

On 2/12/2022 at 5:44 PM, alhoon said:

On top of the other answers, I always wondered how Alwan, and most importantly, his soldiers, were so chill when I first walked in how fort with a couple of Drayks. Or when I was doing jobs for him with a drakon in my party. Not a word from Alwan like "Hey, do you mind NOT coming here with a drakon and a drayk dude?" 

There are way too many humorous inconsistencies. In G1, you ride a modified drayk at sea, but drayks were already barred at that point. How could this be? 

[alhoon]

A drayk-boat that, at least in the GF1:M takes down a Sholai Ship. 

[Ess-Eschas]

6 hours ago, Aze said:

In G1, you ride a modified drayk at sea, but drayks were already barred at that point. How could this be?

 

I think part of the problem with this particular example is that we know very little about Shaper law and how it’s applied. It’s entirely possible that there's no inconsistency here at all!

 

Think of it this way. Domestic dogs are, to all intents and purposes, genetically modified wolves. Humans are modified apes. Birds are modified dinosaurs. In these examples, the ‘genetic modification’ happened naturally, rather than through the influence of science – or with the help of the Shapers – but the effect is largely the same. It just happened the long way around!

 

And yet, I expect you’d find it odd if I called someone’s pet parrot a dinosaur, or treated a domestic dog like a wolf. Birds share ancestry with dinosaurs – they’re ‘modified dinosaurs’ – but they aren’t dinosaurs any more! Somewhere along the way, a line is drawn in genetics, where one creature becomes something else.

 

I imagine the same thing happens in Shaper experiments, too. At some point, a creature becomes so far removed from what it used to be that it becomes something new.

 

I think the same thing could apply here. Consider this. A long time ago, the Shapers modified the drayk species, and made the boat species. By definition, the boat species is a ‘modified drayk’. But are they actually drayks any more? The boat doesn’t really look much like a standard drayk, does it? And if they’re no longer drayks, but are something new, then why would they be subject to the drayk ban?

 

My interpretation of this is that the Shapers created the boat species many generations previously. Maybe they even made other drayk-forms too. At some point, the Shapers reluctantly decided that the original drayks were too dangerous to keep around, and banned the whole species. But the boat species, and the other derivatives, weren’t a part of the ban. They were entirely new species by that point! So, even though drayks haven’t been around for a long, long time by Geneforge 1, the boat species could very well still be thriving.

 

That’s just one way you can have a ‘modified drayk’ in a period when drayks are banned. I’m sure people can come with others!

 

All this is just to point out that there can be some real fluidity in interpretation when it comes to the Geneforge universe, and what we see happening in it. We know surprisingly little about so very much of it, and all we see is an imperfect window into a tiny little corner of it. Since there’s a lot of wiggle room, things that might seem contradictory might in fact be perfectly normal!

 

Rest assured that points just like these are brought up by Spiderweb’s dedicated testing team!

[Amira The Hot Potato]

On 4/2/2022 at 10:42 AM, Aze said:

There are way too many humorous inconsistencies. In G1, you ride a modified drayk at sea, but drayks were already barred at that point. How could this be? 

Not only that but our character can make them 🤪

[Amira The Hot Potato]

I'm aware the games have a few things not quite logical though it is fun to discuss 😋

[alhoon]

On 4/3/2022 at 12:07 AM, Ess-Eschas said:

 

I think part of the problem with this particular example is that we know very little about Shaper law and how it’s applied. It’s entirely possible that there's no inconsistency here at all!

 

Think of it this way. Domestic dogs are, to all intents and purposes, genetically modified wolves. Humans are modified apes. Birds are modified dinosaurs. In these examples, the ‘genetic modification’ happened naturally, rather than through the influence of science – or with the help of the Shapers – but the effect is largely the same. It just happened the long way around!

 

And yet, I expect you’d find it odd if I called someone’s pet parrot a dinosaur, or treated a domestic dog like a wolf. Birds share ancestry with dinosaurs – they’re ‘modified dinosaurs’ – but they aren’t dinosaurs any more! Somewhere along the way, a line is drawn in genetics, where one creature becomes something else.

 

I imagine the same thing happens in Shaper experiments, too. At some point, a creature becomes so far removed from what it used to be that it becomes something new.

 

I think the same thing could apply here. Consider this. A long time ago, the Shapers modified the drayk species, and made the boat species. By definition, the boat species is a ‘modified drayk’. But are they actually drayks any more? The boat doesn’t really look much like a standard drayk, does it? And if they’re no longer drayks, but are something new, then why would they be subject to the drayk ban?

 

My interpretation of this is that the Shapers created the boat species many generations previously. Maybe they even made other drayk-forms too. At some point, the Shapers reluctantly decided that the original drayks were too dangerous to keep around, and banned the whole species. But the boat species, and the other derivatives, weren’t a part of the ban. They were entirely new species by that point! So, even though drayks haven’t been around for a long, long time by Geneforge 1, the boat species could very well still be thriving.

 

That’s just one way you can have a ‘modified drayk’ in a period when drayks are banned. I’m sure people can come with others!

 

All this is just to point out that there can be some real fluidity in interpretation when it comes to the Geneforge universe, and what we see happening in it. We know surprisingly little about so very much of it, and all we see is an imperfect window into a tiny little corner of it. Since there’s a lot of wiggle room, things that might seem contradictory might in fact be perfectly normal!

 

Rest assured that points just like these are brought up by Spiderweb’s dedicated testing team!

 

 

Interesting take. 

A Wingbolt is a modified Artilla, no longer considered an  Artilla. 

 

However, a Cryodrayk is a type of Drayk, same as a wolf (or dog) are canines. A boat-drayk that can spew fire is probably quite apart from a Drayk - since my poor Boat-drayk heroically died to protect a Shaper = no rogue tendencies and certainly didn't show a hoarder's behavior like Drakons and Drayks do. 

 

So... I would say that a boat-drayk is as close to the eeeeeevil Drayks as a Gazer is to an Artilla. 

 

But let's return to your other point: How Shaper Law is applied. 
I think we can all agree that Taygen would wipe out Boat-Drayks anyway as Astoria was trying to work with Drayks and Drakons. 

And while Astoria is a Rebel Shaper (closer to the Awakened than most of the NPCs I have seen, including half the Awakened) Alwan's pet weirdo Shaper is teaching people to Shape Drayks for study purposes. 

 

Which brings me to the  "drayks haven’t been around for a long, long time by Geneforge 1"
This is ... probably not true. While "Banned" those creatures were probably still made, modified and studied either legally (under supervision and all, and disposed of later), semi-legally or illegally. 
What I mean is that say 20 years before GF1, there were probably a bunch of Shapers under a tolerant (or foolish) councilor on island X13 that had Shaped a Drayk in the basement with a couple of Guardians ready to kill it if things went FUBAR. And another bunch of Shapers on remote mountain U11 that were sending reports of their work with "big lizards, similar to Fyoras" while working on Drayks and poisoning agents that were looking into their business. 

And we know Shapers were doing such things. The entire GF universe is littered with places the Shapers were doing nonononono things at. When Shanti is detained in GF2, she is not exactly surprised and saying "this has never happened in the past". 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by alhoon

[Aze]

19 hours ago, alhoon said:

Alwan's pet weirdo Shaper is teaching people to Shape Drayks for study purposes. 

 

Ah, you must mean Shaper Alexie in Fort Vengeance? She's basically described a giggling schoolgirl, despite the fact that she gives you two quests to destroy unauthorized access to Shaper papers. Certainly a very colourful character. Quite the dichotomy between a shaper who who is a stickler to the rules and someone who is brazen enough to teach you how to make barred creations. I do believe that she tells you that you would have to absorb the drayk at the end of the war, which seems to suggest that shapers in general have accepted that their laws must be bent to beat the supremely difficult rebel factions. Indeed, the trainer in Stormhold (Marzan) will teach you how to make Rotghroths if you join Alwan's faction, which is insane, as I can't imagine that a creation as disturbing as a Rotghroth would be permitted to exist in a more stable time. 

[alhoon]

Well, Alexie tells you that the Drayks are barred. 

Rotgroths (not Rotdhizons) are not barred though; Shapers use them occasionally as we see them in that fort and others and there hasn't been a law about them. However, since they are a Rebel Creation few Shapers know how to make them, I think. Plus they are not very stable. Same with the Podlings and Shapers. Podlings are not illegal for Shapers, they don't know how to make them though. 

On the other hand, I am not sure many Rebels know how to make Kyshaaks; IIRC only Litalia makes them. 

[Vinlie]

On 4/4/2022 at 9:59 PM, alhoon said:

 

Rotgroths (not Rotdhizons) are not barred though;

Are Rotdhizons considered too dangerous still?

[alhoon]

I never saw Rotdhizons in Shaper* Castles. Rotgroths are there. 

 

*Real Shaper castles. Kayden has a bunch of Gazers in is lab because he's crazy. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by alhoon