GF1 Mutagen Demo- Torment is impossible!

[puresm0k3]

I can't tell if I'm doing something wrong here. I've started off as an agent with torment (having played the past geneforges many times), this game is a whole different beast. I'm dying to packs of two fyoras constantly, missing/deflected half of my shots, and enemies will kill you almost instantly, not to mention your creations will turn charmed/rogue almost guaranteed if it gets below 30% health. The Rogue Thahd can somehow teleport. Has anyone tried torment difficulty? For reference I've just played through GF5 a few times in preparation, it felt nowhere near as impossible. On the other hand Normal mode felt completely reasonable... maybe like a Tricky in GF5.

Edited February 14, 2021 by puresm0k3

[Randomizer]

This game is completely revised from any of the past Geneforge games.  With a lot of thought and reloads you can get through the game on Torment with any class. I know from lots of games on Torment difficulty as a beta tester. I'm finishing up as an Agent right now.

 

Some things that will help are using a creation and when making it use the top row to add levels to it. Fyoras should get the Innate Haste passive ability to have a chance of an extra attack per round. Pick the weapon or spell that will do the most damage against your enemy Right clicking on an enemy will bring up a box with their health, armor, resistances, buffs, and curses. Use consumable items since there are plenty and at the start those healing pods can keep you going in a fight. Icy crystals have better to hit chance than your character for a physical damage cone shape area of effect.

 

Increasing your attack skill won't change your to hit chance, but it will increase your damage bonus.

Increasing a stat ability won't improve your to hit chance, but it will increase damage.

 

On Torrnent difficulty, most enemy creations have some leap ability that lets them jump  greater distances than you expect and then stun or daze you if they hit.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave any remaining sanity at the door. I know there isn't much left after playing these games.

[puresm0k3]

I see so now you have to utilize everything like pods/crystals whereas you could've gotten away with the buffs+creations+daze/mental magic approach in the previous iterations. Wondering if mechanics and leadership still has the same type of role where you could do a play-through without killing anything?

 

And this... is interesting

Quote

On Torrnent difficulty, most enemy creations have some leap ability that lets them jump  greater distances than you expect and then stun or daze you if they hit.

[Randomizer]

13 minutes ago, puresm0k3 said:

I see so now you have to utilize everything like pods/crystals whereas you could've gotten away with the buffs+creations+daze/mental magic approach in the previous iterations. Wondering if mechanics and leadership still has the same type of role where you could do a play-through without killing anything?

Buffs and daze don't appear until Vakkiri and the Bandit Woods, but they work once you can do them. Daze is extremely effective in the early part of the game for crowd control.

 

There is the Pacifist Medal for not killing anything using Leadership, Mechanics, and Stealth to get through most of the game (49 of 81 zones). I didn't do it above Normal difficulty because of the creations and that leap ability.  Once you get into melee with something, you can only move one tile per round and dragging a creation over to a guard to kill it for you really is a pain.  On harder difficulties there are fewer zones where you want to do it.

[TriRodent]

42 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

There is the Pacifist Medal for not killing anything using Leadership, Mechanics, and Stealth to get through most of the game

 

The other interesting medal along similar lines is getting through the entire game without ever making a creation.  My agent managed it on both normal & hard (veteran? whatever the step between normal & torment is).  Haven't tried a torment that way yet, maybe sometime in the future...

[Randomizer]

Well the Pacifist never made a creation. :)

 

I made it to the Tombs with an agent on Torment before I broke down and made a creation. Maybe if i skipped that and waited another level I could have made it farther without doing a creation. However the expert areas really need creations to survive.

[Mechalibur]

You can combine the Pacifist and No Creation achievements. They work pretty well together since you rarely need any creations if you don't plan on fighting.

 

Anyway, here's some advice I have from my torment experience. Torment gives you a penalty to controlling creations, so it may be better to boost a single creation early on than use multiple. Just keep an eye on your control level as you level up, when it gets low enough, you can create more. Consumables are also really good in the early game. They only use 5AP, so you can use an Icy Crystal and make an attack on the same turn. Since most consumables use AoE attacks, they're also good options for taking out spawners in the early game. Also, the game isn't like Queen's Wish where areas have to be fully cleared to progress, you can just kill a few, go back to town, then go back to the area.

 

It's also worth noting, on the steam forums, a user mentioned evasion is bugged and giving the bonus to enemies instead of your character. Jeff confirmed it and mentioned it will be fixed in the release version, so hopefully when the actual game comes out, your hit chance will be a bit better!

[Randomizer]

What you didn't mention is some zones spawn new creations even when you are clearing the zone. So you can never count on finishing a zone or even having a clear path to a zone exit.

[Mechalibur]

Usually it's only a single creation, though. I've never had that be a serious issue.

[TriRodent]

2 hours ago, Randomizer said:

What you didn't mention is some zones spawn new creations even when you are clearing the zone. So you can never count on finishing a zone or even having a clear path to a zone exit.

 Right ... but...  In many of the zones it seems like you have a set amount of (lets use Watchhill as an example) thadds wandering about outside of the spawner's building.  'Those' you can slowly pick off and run back to town to heal & they don't seem to be replaced.  It's not until you get near the spawner that they really start getting pumped out.

 

And then there are others like out in the western deserts where they are continually created the entire time you're in the zone until you can deal with the spawner.

 

As always tactics need to be flexible to deal with the current situation

 

(are we allowed to talk about things now?)

[Randomizer]

I was think more of Bandit Woods with more on the west side, the Ruined School seems to spawn by the exit or Crag Valley and the southwest side of the zone on the way to the exploding power spiral. I've gotten caught about 20% of the time by a spawned thahd or artila on that return trip.

[Mechalibur]

I figured that was just patrols. There are creations running all around the Ruined School zone, so it makes sense if I'd miss a few of them on return. Even if they are spawned, though, it's usually individual creations that are simple enough to deal with, even on Torment, so the strategy of slowly making your way through a zone should still work.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Mechalibur

[Felix_Felicis]

Just wanted to comment that Torment became a lot easier once I realized creations don’t level and I didn’t need to keep my creations alive. Instead of investing essence in an endurance attribute, pumping fyoras with innate haste and overload allows them to burn through a few enemies, die, and then I travel back to town, rinse, & repeat. It’s still a bit slow but for challenging dungeons you can tailor creation builds to defeat specific rooms and methodically move through them. At least, that was my experience for the demo. Guess I’ll see how much harder torment gets on Wednesday when the game is released.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Felix_Felicis

[Slawbug]

Creations don't level?

 

It is truly, finally a Geneforge game where you can use disposable creations without being at a massive disadvantage?

 

...Neat!

[Randomizer]

Creations don't level up the way they did in the original series. They increase with your level, creation skill level, creation type level, and extra levels in creation screen. Increasing any of those will automatically increase the creation's level so there is no difference between an existing creation and a new creation. 

 

Disposing of a creation is no longer a problem and if it dies you can just make it again so no need to reload from an older save to keep your hard work.

 

Also creations don't penalize your experience, so have none or seven gives you the same experience.

[TriRodent]

Their level is determined by 'your' level & number of points in that particular type of shaping ability.  So they do level up, but don't do it through xp (other than the earned xp going to your character who levels up eventually).

[alhoon]

28 minutes ago, Shapely Trance said:

Creations don't level?

 

It is truly, finally a Geneforge game where you can use disposable creations without being at a massive disadvantage?

 

...Neat!

 

As others said, creations do level when you invest more points in the relevant skill. Imagine my surprise when I raised Fire Shaping and my Cryoa got +1 level as if I had just made her. 

 

 

I still load if I lose a creation though. I am a lifecrafter at heart. I name those creations and I don't want to lose them. 

 

9 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

 

 

Also creations don't penalize your experience, so have none or seven gives you the same experience.

 

More creations = harder to control. With the auto-increase in level of a creation when you raise your shaping skill it will probably become an issue. 

I remember a guy in Geneforge 5 that controls 40 or so Alphas by changing how many he controls at each point. That guy is heavily cheating according to how Shaping works in THIS game. As things stand right now, I am not sure what it would take to keep 7-10 battle alphas under control in battle. The "Shaping skill = more control" is a misnomer since the creations raise levels too. 

Edited February 20, 2021 by alhoon

[Randomizer]

Going rogue isn't as a bad a problem as it seems. Using curing spell or spores if there are a lot works well enough. Just reload if they attack you and do too much damage. If you heal them before their turn they usually don't go rogue.

[alhoon]

6 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Going rogue isn't as a bad a problem as it seems. Using curing spell or spores if there are a lot works well enough. Just reload if they attack you and do too much damage. If you heal them before their turn they usually don't go rogue.

You got the curing spell? Where from? I don't have it. Curing asserts control of a creation?  Healing them before their turn prevents them from going rogue? I never had a creation gone rogue so far. 

So, you mean that if a creation goes rogue, you don't lose it automatically but you can reassert control? 

 

Those align well with what we're told about creations in the following games with soldiers worrying that wounded creations would go rogue etc.

Edited February 20, 2021 by alhoon

[Randomizer]

Cure Affliction spell is first available in Ellhrah's Keep, outside the demo.

 

I didn't;'t have going rouge problems in the demo, but I only used one creation. You can reassert control or wait it out.

[Slawbug]

3 hours ago, Randomizer said:

so there is no difference between an existing creation and a new creation

 

YESSSSSSSS

 

  

3 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Also creations don't penalize your experience

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

 

OK, now I'm actually excited for this thing.

 

(Whether I will have time to actually play it, different question...)

[Mechalibur]

It really is a fantastic change for build variety. The exploding creations actually have a pretty useful niche in my experience, whereas they seemed almost entirely useless in G1-G5.

[Felix_Felicis]

2 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

It really is a fantastic change for build variety. The exploding creations actually have a pretty useful niche in my experience, whereas they seemed almost entirely useless in G1-G5.

That's kind of cool. I think if I used melee creations at all it will be for short-term damage soaking and if they rush in, take damage, and explode on death that seems like an optimal situation all-around. Have you mainly used them as a shaper, agent, guardian, or any class?

[puresm0k3]

Does anybody actually know if they finally made the Guardian/warrior class good again since GF2, looks like there's less of a selection for creations/spells which may be an indirect buff

[Felix_Felicis]

19 minutes ago, puresm0k3 said:

Does anybody actually know if they finally made the Guardian/warrior class good again since GF2, looks like there's less of a selection for creations/spells which may be an indirect buff

Well in the "Backer Contribution" thread @Randomizer said that Jeff kept changing something about Guardian abilities because he (Randomizer) was having too easy a time with Guardians, I think on Torment difficulty. 

 

So I think they're pretty strong, but some of it also probably comes down to knowing how to build the class. And Jeff is a pretty generous developer in in his games it's usually the case that any class can eventually crush the game if you know how to play it.

[Randomizer]

I finished the game with a solo missile guardian on torment difficulty. There are a few really nasty boss fights at the end that it took some time to figure out a winning tactic for each fight.

 

Jeff decreased the damage bonus for weapons and battle magic early in the testing from +10% to +8% and made it less likely that you could get sa steel sword early in the game, meaning the demo. The biggest change for a melee guardian is there are more unstable creations that explode for more damage when they die than in the original game. Also on the two hardest difficulties monsters are likely to use their leap attack to close to melee with a chance of daze or stun for some of them.

 

Jeff added the evasion skill that works somewhat like GF2 parry except there is no riposte at higher levels. It's possible to get weaker monsters down to a 5% chance of hitting your character. Even the 20 to 30% range means you can survive some fights that an agent wouldn't.

[alhoon]

10 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Cure Affliction spell is first available in Ellhrah's Keep, outside the demo.

😞

 

4 more days and your hurtful words won't hurt... 

[Mechalibur]

Guardians seem to be in a reasonable place. They have more tools for dealing with large numbers of enemies, which is nice. Batons feel strong and there's a good variety of them.