Didn't like it. And you?

[HerrBrotmarr]

Hi, i'm a fan of spiderweb games, and i've played all of avernum and geneforge games liking them immensely (some were better, some were worse, but in the end they remained in my heart).

Then i started avadon, and after some time i started getting bored. Then, after a pause of many months, managed to finish it but without much enjoyment.

I think the causes of MY dislike (this is purely personal, i'm sure a lot of people liked it)are due to the combat:

In normal difficulty you basically have to slay hordes of mobs who are too weak to pose any danger, who lacked particular strategy or tricky game mechanics.

I felt the combat challenging only three times in the whole playthrough, all the rest was just boring mob grinding.

The ability tree gave some nice powers, but in the end i felt it much more limited than the spell lists of the previus games ( in terms of quantity and usefulness).

It really felt like spiderweb did the same mistake wotc did by making D&D 4ed. Combat simplified, boredom increased.

I really liked the plot (like all previous games), though.

What do you think? Am i crazy or there is someone who share my wiews?

[Triumph]

Did you try increasing the difficulty? That might be a way to get the challenge you're seeking.

[Dear Potato]

I loved the game... but it was my first Spiderweb game.

 

Never tried myself, but I've read on these forums that Torment can get pretty challenging; and you can turn the difficulty up at any moment.

[The Reverend]

That is the way it has been on normal difficulty in recent Spiderweb games. I switched to playing on hard difficulty for my initial playthrough (and torment if I do a second) when Avernum 6 came out, because I noticed some comments in the forums that normal had gotten easier. I find that hard is about right for someone who is used to Spiderweb-style games, and is looking for a difficulty that approximately matches normal on their older games.

[HerrBrotmarr]

Really? So now difficulty is: normal=casual gamer, hard=normal torment=hard?

 

This explains something.. well, still hoping Avadon 2 will have a better ability tree and more original fights, i will play it in hard mode.

 

@Dear Potato: Play avernum and geneforce. Now.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: HerrBrotmarr

Really? So now difficulty is: normal=casual gamer, hard=normal torment=hard?

Not exactly. Normal got easier but torment remains punishing. Jeff has tried to widen the scale so easy is really easy, normal is a bit easier than it used to be, and torment should, if anything, but more torturous with enemies that do more dangerous things instead of just having boatloads of health and harder hits.

—Alorael, who recommends playing in torment. If you don't like easy fights, turn up the difficulty and you'll start facing enemies that do different, scripted things that will keep you on your toes.

[Cpt. Charles]

Originally Posted By: Unique RFLP

—Alorael, who recommends playing in torment. If you don't like easy fights, turn up the difficulty and you'll start facing enemies that do different, scripted things that will keep you on your toes.

Heh. I started A:EftP on Torment with a two-man party. It took me everything to beat the first fights in the beginning town. I then started over on Hard with a regular four-man party, and the game was still hard enough to be very fun.

I think the difficulty has changed (IMHO) so that people starting the series who aren't aquainted with any of the other games, can start off with not too hard a play, then feel free to change the difficulty however they want. Those who've already played can simply start off on Hard or Torment, to get the experience they're used too.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Cpt. Charles

I think the difficulty has changed (IMHO) so that people starting the series who aren't aquainted with any of the other games, can start off with not too hard a play, then feel free to change the difficulty however they want. Those who've already played can simply start off on Hard or Torment, to get the experience they're used too.

Yeah, that's about right. Jeff has said several times that his goal is that a game on Normal difficulty should still be finishable without too much trouble for a beginning player making suboptimal strategic and tactical decisions.

[Dear Potato]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Yeah, that's about right. Jeff has said several times that his goal is that a game on Normal difficulty should still be finishable without too much trouble for a beginning player making suboptimal strategic and tactical decisions.

Not my case, but... it would be a good idea to describe this in the difficulty setting descriptions, so experienced players knew better what to expect

[Alorael at Large]

It's just not terribly important when you can change the difficulty any time you want. Too easy? Too hard? Go to preferences and fix it yourself.

 

—Alorael, who thinks trying to give accurate names is an impossible task. Gamers are like Lake Wobegone: everyone is above average. And one player who thinks he's great might be terrible, while another who's pretty good might only have comparisons with the absolute best players and think she should play on the lowest difficulty. Unless Jeff just describes what each difficulty does, which isn't possible now that it changes scripts as well as math, the names are just names. You have to find your own sweet difficulty spot.

[Randomizer]

There is also a learning curve with the series where players that are better with Avernum or Geneforge find the other harder when they start it. They require different tactics.

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: Cpt. Charles

Originally Posted By: Unique RFLP

—Alorael, who recommends playing in torment. If you don't like easy fights, turn up the difficulty and you'll start facing enemies that do different, scripted things that will keep you on your toes.

Heh. I started A:EftP on Torment with a two-man party. It took me everything to beat the first fights in the beginning town. I then started over on Hard with a regular four-man party, and the game was still hard enough to be very fun.

I think the difficulty has changed (IMHO) so that people starting the series who aren't aquainted with any of the other games, can start off with not too hard a play, then feel free to change the difficulty however they want. Those who've already played can simply start off on Hard or Torment, to get the experience they're used too.

The only thing that changed in Avadon that I had to get used to at first was the tactics. When playing gene forge and avernum, if you are playing a warrior or anyone with swords, you will likely be fighting opponents with swords or melee weapons most of the time without much problems if your stats are ok. Avadon is different in that 1/3s into the game its ok to beat on an enemy boss with melee at first, but sooner rather than later, ranged weapons will be your main source of dealing damage to bosses and enemies when in mid fight. This is mostly due to the fact that enemies try and get away from your party to launch ranged attacks and spells.

Its still challenging at parts of the game with major boss battles, and unchallenging with most of the regular enemies. So yes I agree that the game is different.

[Lilith]

Conveniently, the point where melee characters become seriously problematic is about the point where a retrainer becomes available, so at least you're not stuck with them.

[MMXPERT-seraph of thermodynamics]

Originally Posted By: HerrBrotmarr

Hi, i'm a fan of spiderweb games, and i've played all of avernum and geneforge games liking them immensely (some were better, some were worse, but in the end they remained in my heart).
Then i started avadon, and after some time i started getting bored. Then, after a pause of many months, managed to finish it but without much enjoyment.
I think the causes of MY dislike (this is purely personal, i'm sure a lot of people liked it)are due to the combat:
In normal difficulty you basically have to slay hordes of mobs who are too weak to pose any danger, who lacked particular strategy or tricky game mechanics.
I felt the combat challenging only three times in the whole playthrough, all the rest was just boring mob grinding.
The ability tree gave some nice powers, but in the end i felt it much more limited than the spell lists of the previus games ( in terms of quantity and usefulness).
It really felt like spiderweb did the same mistake wotc did by making D&D 4ed. Combat simplified, boredom increased.
I really liked the plot (like all previous games), though.
What do you think? Am i crazy or there is someone who share my wiews?

I completely agree with you.

[Blacknight]

I have quit playing it. I found a "helper" whose skills balanced against my weakness, only to have them take off on some personal matter and force me to run with a new "partner." I read now where "shmavadon" will be the next big thing coming from the creativity mill. Apparently I'm in the minority as all indications are that Avadon is a smashing success. I've played these games since they were stick figures and enjoyed them. Not so much with Avadon. I went back and found a geneforge one I hadn't played and am messing around with it instead. I'll probably try again with Avadon, but just don't find it as enjoyable as everything that came before it. :-(

[Mosquito---Slayer]

I have quit playing it. I found a "helper" whose skills balanced against my weakness, only to have them take off on some personal matter and force me to run with a new "partner."

That happens for only a single quest, if you complete it you can play with your "helper" again for the rest of the game.

[Randomizer]

As long as you go to the place to retrieve the Hand they should grudgingly help you. It will make a difference at the very end.

[Blacknight]

That happens for only a single quest, if you complete it you can play with your "helper" again for the rest of the game.

I'm sure you're right, but that's not the point really - the newer "helper" does the same thing. It's obviously built into the code. Possibly there's a good reason for it, but I don't care for it happening much. A bit too scripted for my taste. While the graphics and effects have improved over the years with Spiderweb games, the forced "you will play it THIS way at this time" is not a plus for me.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

I agree, linearity can be a pain for the free spirited.

[The Reverend]

I'm sure you're right, but that's not the point really - the newer "helper" does the same thing. It's obviously built into the code. Possibly there's a good reason for it, but I don't care for it happening much. A bit too scripted for my taste. While the graphics and effects have improved over the years with Spiderweb games, the forced "you will play it THIS way at this time" is not a plus for me.

Avadon is very much trying to tell a story, which forces some linearity into the game. The helpers disappearing and going off on their own personal quests is actually an important piece of that story - it all becomes clearer at the end of the game.

 

But yes, if you're looking for a totally open world in the style of the Exile/Avernum 1, Avadon is not the best choice.

[Triumph]

Confession: I don't love all Spiderweb games equally. It's okay! Personally, I didn't enjoy Avadon's demo enough to want to purchase it. But then when A:EftP came out, I eagerly gobbled it up. So, basically just chiming in to say you're not alone in not being a fan of Avadon, and to say you're on the right track with finding the other SW games you do enjoy. And I'll definitely give Avadon 2 a try when it comes out; Jeff's games are always evolving.

[Kelandon]

I liked it, but I'm not picky about linearity vs. open-ended exploration. I kind of think that Spiderweb does open-ended exploration better than just about anything else I've played, whereas it does strong linear plotlines well but not much better than other game companies, and that might explain why a lot of SW fans are disappointed when a SW game is more linear, but that's just a guess from someone who hasn't played many RPGs and doesn't really have enough of a frame of reference to make that kind of guess.

[nikki.]

I think that's fair. I think that open-ended games are also more of a novelty these days (Elder Scrolls games notwithstanding), so it's possible to only make okayish games like this and still do well.

 

I too am a bit behind on games playing though, so maybe this is something that I've discovered from the games I've played.

[DokEnkephalin]

I didn't think the combat system was that different, it's just the allocation of skills are more specialized and exclusive. Fewer skills become obsolete, but more have the opportunity to start out worthless because their utility doesn't scale with level. For one example, if you pump skill points up to Charm Foe early on, you can have a useful skill ever 12 turns, at the expense of other tactics between those turns. Get it late game and it's failure rate means those points spent are an investment still awaiting a return from spending more points up the ladder for a less futile expense of more points...that's if you intended to climb that ladder, if you only wanted that skill, you get a crippled character build until you respec.

 

It's really the story elements that get unfuriatingly idiotic enough to disrupt my game, especially the shallow arguments presented. Jeff's dialectics used to be more sophisticated; what happened? The last few games they've gotten so single-dimension and shortsighted that I find the games more enjoyable if I speed through the text altogether.