Critical Hits

[Aoslare]

So I just decided to do some testing on Lethal Blow. I attacked a townsperson (Cabanero, cornered in a hallway in Bargha... sorry dude) at level 1, with no improved stats and skill points only in Melee Weapons (to have a reasonable hit rate) and Quick Action (because they were there).

 

5/50 ... Baseline

6/50 ... Baseline + 5 Luck

18/50 ... Baseline + 3 Lethal Blow

35/50 ... Baseline + 10 Lethal Blow

 

I only did 50 trials per test, which is not really adequate to get exact numbers. Luck probably has no impact, for example, but who knows. However, it's clear that Lethal Blow has a large impact.

 

I suggested a long time ago that Lethal Blow seems to work at more than 3% per point, and this data backs that up. The actual crit chance appears to be something like

 

10% baseline

10% bonus for having any Lethal Blow

5% / pt of Lethal Blow

 

If these numbers are even close to accurate, this makes Lethal Blow MUCH better. Although criticals only increase damage by 50%, that is a flat increase, as opposed to percentile damage bonuses that are added before being applied. Thus, given the level percentile damage bonuses tend to reach in the game, +5% chance of critical is equivalent to about 4% of a percentile damage bonus. That means it is better then Blademaster, after all.

 

For sword users, this probably makes QA/DW/LB worth it compared to just pumping melee. And of course this is terrific news for archers, who can stick to Sharpshooter and Lethal Blow.

[Death Knight]

That is excellent to know, i always had a feeling i was getting way too many criticals for no points. Maybe i might put a few points in there for my rogue this time. In your testing, luck showed no chances of affecting it? I'd hope it did, that way i can put points elsewhere other than just sticking them to hardiness.

[Kinsume]

The issue is you'll never actually get enough points to pump both of them will you? In order to get level 10 LB or DW you'd need level 10 QA, in order to get level 10 QA you need level 10 BM, in order to get level 10 BM you need level 10 SM. That is why the skills up there are pretty much useless isn't it?

 

I haven't actually tried to level them up there yet, however I know that I can't boost Parry until Hardiness is leveled and I can't boost Hardiness unless SM is leveled, so I assume the correlation continues.

 

Frankly its one of the things I can't stand about this new skill system. I loved how the old Exile/Avernum games did their skills.

[Aoslare]

Personally, I think the constraints of the new system lead to far greater creativity in building, rather than "this skill is great so I'm putting tons of points there."

 

As for getting the points: it's doable, eventually. You use a trainer for 2 points of QA and 2 points of Melee Weapons. You can achieve something like this by level 30. You can do everything except the DW skill by level 26, which is early enough to be useful for a good chunk of the game.

 

8+2 MW

10+2 Hardiness

10+2 Parry

10+2 Blademaster

8+2 QA

10+2 LB

8 DW

 

On the other hand, since a single point in LB seems to give terrific returns, you could also train 1 point into it early on. That would stop you from reaching 12 at the very end of the game, but is honestly probably worth it for the early bonus.

[Kinsume]

This is of course assuming you take no utility skills at all like Tool Use, Cave Lore, First Aid, ect. I see your point though, forgot about the trainer system as I haven't gotten far enough to make real use of it yet. Honestly I'll probably wait for your remake thing and then do a new playthrough with it.

[Aoslare]

Spellcasters have a lot more room to pick up utility skills.

 

 

I'm making good progress on the remake. Hopefully I can have something for folks fairly soon.

[Kinsume]

When you consider that there needs to be 12 arcane lore, 10 cave lord and 13 tool use picked up; that basically means that they won't be able to invest in much else other than their initial mage/priest skills and utility. I guess that could work, with a strong emphasis on guess.

[Aoslare]

You'll note that I recommend skipping Cave Lore entirely, not getting to 13 Tool Use (it's not useful), getting some from traits, and getting most Arcane Lore from traits or trainers.

[Kreador]

One find gets your characters a bonus of +1 cave lore each, as I recall, and you can buy more from a trainer, so you don't need to spend actual points there if you don't want to. If you forgo the spell books in the cave in the rapids, you can learn every spell by giving your two casters the Sage Lore trait and putting 6 or 7 points into Arcane Lore (you can even buy some of those if you have the cash). In other words, not all of the points have to come from your limited level-up points.

[Aoslare]

It's not worth wasting money on Cave Lore. What you get from caches does not make up for the money you spent on it (instead of a more useful skill). Also, Sage Lore can go on anyone if you want to do it that way.

[Death Knight]

Slarty you said that luck 'might' have an actual affect on critical hits. Should we avoid luck altogether or will it enhance lb?

 

"6/50 ... Baseline + 5 Luck"

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Luck probably has no impact, for example, but who knows.

[Kinsume]

Considering you put 5 points into it and saw only 1 extra critical it is safe to assume that extra crit was by pure coincidence and luck has nothing at all to do with crit chance.

[ShieTar]

I did a similar test yesterday, and I got 4/100 Baseline and 52/100 with 10 Lethal Blow. Didn't test for luck.

 

So I assumed it was 5% base + 5% per LB (after already reading your guess that the effect seems to be higher than 3%), but your final results look higher still.

 

I did it with L1 characters and the 3 Nephalim in the first cave in the starter-dungeon. Maybe the Level of the NPC target can play a role?

 

What I did test additionally was 40 STR, 40 DEX and 40 Melee, without LB. That resulted in 1 or 2 crits over 40 attacks each, so clearly no improvement over the Baseline.

 

Edit: What I also did afterwards was cast a lot of Fireballs with and without 10 LB, and they definitly got the same ~50% critical hit rate due to LB. A pity that LB is so expensive for mages.

[Kinsume]

Are you capable of altering what properties stat points can give? I really think there should be a little more to them then their current bonuses. For example, Dex should give 1% crit chance per 5 points invested, Str should give 1% melee damage per 5 points invested, Int - 1% magic damage per 5 points and End - 1% armor per 5 points invested.

[Aoslare]

No, I can't alter stats or skills at all.

 

I don't see what that would change, anyway -- warriors, archers and spellcasters would still each be relegated to putting most points in one stat. It just increases all damage dealt, while also increasing the gulf that anyone who doesn't focus on a single stat faces.

[Kinsume]

Or you can look at it in the sense that people would be more willing to hybrid their builds. For example a dual wielding fighter would pump some dex in order to get those crit chances rather than pure strength. A mage/priest might pump more endurance for those extra armor %'s.

[Aoslare]

Thoughts on what could be causing the differences, from most to least likely:

 

1. Random fluctation

 

2. Those 10 points of Quick Action (but this didn't affect the baseline much)

 

3. Difference involving NPCs. This one affected the rate of "Lethal Blow" in A6, but this skill could be rewritten from scratch, anyway. OTOH, Cabanero is definitely a higher level than the starting cave NPCs, so it shouldn't work better on him.

 

4. Average party level -- I did the test with 3 other PCs at a much higher level. They didn't participate. I wouldn't expect this one, but who knows

 

5. Haste - now that I think about it, I had Battle Frenzy active to increase the number of attacks I could make before having to reload. This one is very unlikely, but who knows.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

Or you can look at it in the sense that people would be more willing to hybrid their builds. For example a dual wielding fighter would pump some dex in order to get those crit chances rather than pure strength. A mage/priest might pump more endurance for those extra armor %'s.

+1% to damage will increase your damage output more (and more consistently) than +1% to crit chance. All your changes do is make each skill slightly better. With the exception of the Dex bonus helping non-Dex-based attacks, it doesn't change the direction of any of the skills; but even if the Dex bonus were as good as the Str/Int bonuses, there would be no incentive for a fighter or spellcaster to pump Dex just for that bonus given the things it means giving up.

[ShieTar]

The most important reason not to pick any secondary stats would still remain the hit chance impact. Even if you hand out 1% crit chance for every point of DEX, your melee fighter would, for the harder fights, give up 50% hit chance by the 10 STR. Nobody can afford that.

[Kinsume]

Originally Posted By: ShieTar

The most important reason not to pick any secondary stats would still remain the hit chance impact. Even if you hand out 1% crit chance for every point of DEX, your melee fighter would, for the harder fights, give up 50% hit chance by the 10 STR. Nobody can afford that.

That is true, I'm too accustomed to games having dex as their hit chance modifier. Forgot that Str was it for fighters.